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How to salvage OSAS in view of Rom 11 and 2Tim2
- Thread starter BobRyan
- Start date
Im not understanding why this verse about the Jews needs to be used when it says the same thing here, I think.
Jn:15:2: Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
Jn:15:4: Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
Jn:15:6: If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
Jn:15:2: Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
Jn:15:4: Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
Jn:15:6: If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
Bob, Claudia pretty much made my point by the verses she quoted. As I said before this is just a word picture. No one is a branch and no one is on a tree. There is a representative nature going on here. The verses from John and the Romans verses are not telling us a lesson on losing salvation or doing good to keep salvation. The lesson here is that God's people were those of the house of Isreal and now are of the "household of Faith". In the sense of this "picture" it is saying that where once only those who were ethnically Jews were born a branch now the world is born on the tree. Those who are God's will remain as branches, Jews being original branches and Gentiles being grafted in branches, and those who are not God's are cut off the tree and burned. The picture painted here is once of permanence. This does not address being cut off and then believing and being re-attached to the tree. That is not the lesson here. It is a simple lesson, probably more directed at Jews so they would understand that God's people now encombassed Jews and gentiles alike. The verses from John are so clear that it is hard for me to make them more understandable. The branch that belongs to God, is refined and made better. The fruitless branch, is the unbeliever, and is cut off and thrown into Hell. A branch, it says, can only bear fruit when it abides in the vine, or in other words is "saved". Once saved then refining happens. It really is that simple. The whole vine-branches thing is an object lesson. Neither Paul or Jesus was writing a deep doctrine here but they were both trying to make a point.
Bob, the "fallen away" is intended for the Hebrews and you want to make it a lesson for Gentiles. The scripture from Hebrews is not for the Gentiles. Therefore my position is that "fallen away" is simply "unsaved Hebrews". They were believers in God, the one true God but they many did not believe god's son had come and so were not forgiven of their sins but the sacrifice of Christ. They were drawn by the Holy Spirit in a powerful way because they were of God's people at one time. The audience of the verses in question is the key to understanding this. There is no salvation outside of Jesus, even for those who believed in the God of Isreal, that is the bottom line point here.
more later,
In Christ,
Brian
Bob, the "fallen away" is intended for the Hebrews and you want to make it a lesson for Gentiles. The scripture from Hebrews is not for the Gentiles. Therefore my position is that "fallen away" is simply "unsaved Hebrews". They were believers in God, the one true God but they many did not believe god's son had come and so were not forgiven of their sins but the sacrifice of Christ. They were drawn by the Holy Spirit in a powerful way because they were of God's people at one time. The audience of the verses in question is the key to understanding this. There is no salvation outside of Jesus, even for those who believed in the God of Isreal, that is the bottom line point here.
more later,
In Christ,
Brian
I'm not a great theologian here, but...
It seems to me that an illustration given in an earlier post....
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=785863&postcount=95
gives a fairly representative picture of OSAS.
And for some strange reason, it appears that some individuals in this thread have totally ignored it. I wonder...why?
In other words...
If Jesus replaced the old, corruptible heart (soul)...with a newly regenerated heart (soul)...then why would He (at some time in the future) pull out that heart (soul) that He himself had put in, and the Holy Spirit had taken up permanent residence within?
Wouldn't that in effect be saying...God, Jesus, Holy Spirit is not capable of securing children/heirs/joint heirs unto His kingdom?
For I believe.....
In my carnal self...there was nothing I could do...short (or long, for that matter) of admitting...
Without the Mercy and Grace of God I was lost and condemned to eternal separation from Him.
Furthermore, in my sinful condition condition I did not deserve His Mercy or His Grace, but He offered both freely.
And strangely enough...
When I realized that, I...
1. Realized.....(past tense).....that it was because of His Mercy that He did not give me what I deserved (death and permanent separation from Him).
2. Confessed.....(past tense).....of my sinful condition.
3. Asked for forgiveness of my sins.....(past tense).....and asked Jesus to come into my heart and cleanse/regenerate my soul.
4. Accepted.....(past tense).....His Grace by Faith in Him alone.
5. Turned.....(past tense).....from my previous actions in life.
6. Continue.....(present, and future, tense).....to live for Him throughout my physical life on this earth, even though there are times that I fail Him.
7. Look forward.....(future tense).....to the day that I will bow before Him in His presence and praise Him forever.
Therefore, I have no need to debate OSAS, because I know within my heart and soul without any shadow of a doubt that Jesus' precious blood covers any sin that I have committed, or will ever commit, for....
It seems to me that an illustration given in an earlier post....
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=785863&postcount=95
gives a fairly representative picture of OSAS.
And for some strange reason, it appears that some individuals in this thread have totally ignored it. I wonder...why?
In other words...
If Jesus replaced the old, corruptible heart (soul)...with a newly regenerated heart (soul)...then why would He (at some time in the future) pull out that heart (soul) that He himself had put in, and the Holy Spirit had taken up permanent residence within?
Wouldn't that in effect be saying...God, Jesus, Holy Spirit is not capable of securing children/heirs/joint heirs unto His kingdom?
For I believe.....
In my carnal self...there was nothing I could do...short (or long, for that matter) of admitting...
Without the Mercy and Grace of God I was lost and condemned to eternal separation from Him.
Furthermore, in my sinful condition condition I did not deserve His Mercy or His Grace, but He offered both freely.
And strangely enough...
When I realized that, I...
1. Realized.....(past tense).....that it was because of His Mercy that He did not give me what I deserved (death and permanent separation from Him).
2. Confessed.....(past tense).....of my sinful condition.
3. Asked for forgiveness of my sins.....(past tense).....and asked Jesus to come into my heart and cleanse/regenerate my soul.
4. Accepted.....(past tense).....His Grace by Faith in Him alone.
5. Turned.....(past tense).....from my previous actions in life.
6. Continue.....(present, and future, tense).....to live for Him throughout my physical life on this earth, even though there are times that I fail Him.
7. Look forward.....(future tense).....to the day that I will bow before Him in His presence and praise Him forever.
Therefore, I have no need to debate OSAS, because I know within my heart and soul without any shadow of a doubt that Jesus' precious blood covers any sin that I have committed, or will ever commit, for....
Brian,
PROBLEM ALERT!!
Jn:15:6: If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
Jn:15:7: If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
His words must abide in us as well.
Jn:15:10: If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
we must keep the commandments to abide in Him
NOTICE!!! WE ABODE HIM IN AND HIM IN US
Jn:15:5: I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
its the Him abiding in us that you are leaving out of the picture
PROBLEM ALERT!!
Jn:15:6: If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
Jn:15:7: If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
His words must abide in us as well.
Jn:15:10: If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
we must keep the commandments to abide in Him
NOTICE!!! WE ABODE HIM IN AND HIM IN US
Jn:15:5: I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
its the Him abiding in us that you are leaving out of the picture
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Briguy said:
That interpretation has 3 huge problems.
#1. It is the "lost vs loster" warning instead of the "Gospel" vs being "lost" warning. You claim that the whole world start LOST but ON the vine LOST. "Good and lost" as it were. Then in that LOST condition they "FAIL" to REMAIN good-and-lost and are REMOVED - taken out and become BAD LOST??!!
But there is NO command in scripture to remain "good and lost". Obviously in scripture the contrast is between "saved" and "lost" NOT "Lost" and "Loster".
#2. The second problem (in the case of Romans 11) is that the point is NOT "SO in your GOOD and Lost state I recommend that you CHOOSE to now accept Christ and have faith so that you may then stand". Rather in Romans 11 they ARE standing "BY their FAITH" and Paul argues that they should not adopt that SAME spirit of rebellion choosing to NOT continue in that faith. He does not say they ARE in a lost state of unblief and they most STOP doing what they are doing - rather He says they must REMAIN standing firm in faith.
#3. The last devastating problem is that "HE is able to graft those who have fallen BACK IN again if they do not continue in unbelief" - in saying that - your view has them going from "LOSTER" to just "Good and lost" -- the former condition which you claim is IN but not actually saved - just LOST and bound for hell.
Your model falls about all over the place. At every level.
In Christ,
Bob
Hi Bob,
#3 - Bob, somehow you are still missing the key part of the verses. Read farther in Romans 11 to see more of the picture. There is no problem being "grafted in again" if you understand the picture. First, until Jesus Gentiles did not have the opportunity, as a whole group, to be saved. They were not God's people, the Jews were. After Jesus ALL PEOPLE had the opportunity to be saved. The tree represents opportunity. Being a branch meant the potential to be saved, not being saved. Being grafted back in IS being saved in this picture. Jesus opened up Heaven to God's elect of every nation, not just Isreal. All nations are on the tree now. To be saved is to be grafted back on the tree, in this "picture" This is not a doctrinal statement but just a way showing something that happened. A change in the very way God deals with people.
I will deal with the other two in time. Thanks for your patience.
In Christ,
Brian
#3 - Bob, somehow you are still missing the key part of the verses. Read farther in Romans 11 to see more of the picture. There is no problem being "grafted in again" if you understand the picture. First, until Jesus Gentiles did not have the opportunity, as a whole group, to be saved. They were not God's people, the Jews were. After Jesus ALL PEOPLE had the opportunity to be saved. The tree represents opportunity. Being a branch meant the potential to be saved, not being saved. Being grafted back in IS being saved in this picture. Jesus opened up Heaven to God's elect of every nation, not just Isreal. All nations are on the tree now. To be saved is to be grafted back on the tree, in this "picture" This is not a doctrinal statement but just a way showing something that happened. A change in the very way God deals with people.
I will deal with the other two in time. Thanks for your patience.
In Christ,
Brian
#1 - Your response reminded me of Bill Clinton at a Grand Jury hearing :laugh: You are making this too complicated. My response to #3 answers this as well. It is just a picture showing basically that the Jews were not God's only people now. Was a Jewish born saved? well, no they weren't. Were they still god's chosen people as a whole? well, yes they were. That is the point! Because of Jesus we are all God's chosen people!!! That is what the tree picture shows us. I probably won't get to #2 until tomorrow. (actually that sounded really bad didn't it :laugh: :laugh: )
-Brian
-Brian
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Ok so NOT in the vine is "N
PPORTUNITY" to believe or be saved. IN the vine is "LOST WITH opportunity" to be saved and OUT of the vine is "LOST WITHOUT any opportunity to believe and be saved".Got it.
Lost and LOSTER!
And that means this is a command to the LOST not be become LOSTER!
Got it!
But how then does the lost person with N
PPORTUNITY to be saved - get grafted BACK AGAIN to be a lost person now WITH Opportunity to be saved?Also how is it that Paul says to those who are lost-WITH-opportunity to become saved "YOU STAND by your faith"?
I see so "IN the vine" is not simply "LOST with the POSSIBILITY of being saved" it is in fact "BEING SAVED"
How interesting.
My position is also that "IN THE VINE" is "SAVED"!!
So now back to your "OUT of the Vine is LOST WITHOUT any possibility at all of belief and being saved"
Claudia said:
PROBLEM ALERT!!
Jn:15:6: If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
Jn:15:7: If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
His words must abide in us as well.
Jn:15:10: If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
we must keep the commandments to abide in Him
NOTICE!!! WE ABODE HIM IN AND HIM IN US
Jn:15:5: I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
its the Him abiding in us that you are leaving out of the picture
Hi Claudia, There are problems with your assumptions here. First do you always get what you ask from the Lord. You know like every time you hear of a friend or family member that is sick you pray for them and they get better, right? That is what it says. If he is in us and we abide in his words the we get anything we ask for. So, each time you ask for something and it does not happen it means you are not in His words. Or is there a different meaning here. Next you say that we MUST keep His commandments to abide in Him. Actually, Jesus said His commandments and you said THE commandments. So, to abide in Christ means we MUST keep the commandments. That means that at a time I am not keeping His commandments I am not in him. That means that we would cycle back and forth. If I covet something of someone else's I don't abide in Him anymore, but wait I then stop coveting and I abide in Him again. Oh no, I just lusted after a woman I saw, so now i don't abide in him anymore. Whew, made it past that so I abide in him again. Rats, I just complained about my mom, out I go again. I confessed of that and now I abide in him. Well, that was the first 10 minutes of the day:laugh: . I think you get my comic point. If our truely abiding in Him, for salvation was based on US and how well we follow the commandments we would be in trouble. Jesus said that He brought a new commandment to us and that is to LOVE others. He said LOVE God and LOVE others. How do we prove our love to God? We don't he sees our hearts and faith directly, no proof needed. How do we prove our LOVE for God to the world, by showing God's love, through works, to others. There is a Love lesson here not a salvation one. The final verse John 15:5 sums it up and says that we do the good because of Christ. Good works in God's sight can only be from the one who abides in His son. That is LOVE.
I will try to tie it together better a little later,
In Christ,
Brian
PROBLEM ALERT!!
Jn:15:6: If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
Jn:15:7: If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
His words must abide in us as well.
Jn:15:10: If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
we must keep the commandments to abide in Him
NOTICE!!! WE ABODE HIM IN AND HIM IN US
Jn:15:5: I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
its the Him abiding in us that you are leaving out of the picture
Hi Claudia, There are problems with your assumptions here. First do you always get what you ask from the Lord. You know like every time you hear of a friend or family member that is sick you pray for them and they get better, right? That is what it says. If he is in us and we abide in his words the we get anything we ask for. So, each time you ask for something and it does not happen it means you are not in His words. Or is there a different meaning here. Next you say that we MUST keep His commandments to abide in Him. Actually, Jesus said His commandments and you said THE commandments. So, to abide in Christ means we MUST keep the commandments. That means that at a time I am not keeping His commandments I am not in him. That means that we would cycle back and forth. If I covet something of someone else's I don't abide in Him anymore, but wait I then stop coveting and I abide in Him again. Oh no, I just lusted after a woman I saw, so now i don't abide in him anymore. Whew, made it past that so I abide in him again. Rats, I just complained about my mom, out I go again. I confessed of that and now I abide in him. Well, that was the first 10 minutes of the day:laugh: . I think you get my comic point. If our truely abiding in Him, for salvation was based on US and how well we follow the commandments we would be in trouble. Jesus said that He brought a new commandment to us and that is to LOVE others. He said LOVE God and LOVE others. How do we prove our love to God? We don't he sees our hearts and faith directly, no proof needed. How do we prove our LOVE for God to the world, by showing God's love, through works, to others. There is a Love lesson here not a salvation one. The final verse John 15:5 sums it up and says that we do the good because of Christ. Good works in God's sight can only be from the one who abides in His son. That is LOVE.
I will try to tie it together better a little later,
In Christ,
Brian
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
BobRyan said:Ok so NOT in the vine is "N
Got it.
Lost and LOSTER!
And that means this is a command to the LOST not be become LOSTER!
Got it!
But how then does the lost person with N
Also how is it that Paul says to those who are lost-WITH-opportunity to become saved "YOU STAND by your faith"?
I see so "IN the vine" is not simply "LOST with the POSSIBILITY of being saved" it is in fact "BEING SAVED"
How interesting.
My position is also that "IN THE VINE" is "SAVED"!!
So now back to your "OUT of the Vine is LOST WITHOUT any possibility at all of belief and being saved"
It simply shows that you can not have it both ways Bri -
UnchartedSpirit
New Member
Hey! Has anyone mentioned the verses before 2TIM 2:8
'If we deny him then he will also deny us
If we are unfaithful to him he will remain faithful to us; he cannot deny himself'
...somthing like that. i cannever memorize anything-save numbers it seems. Anyway is this a oxymoron or whatever? Unless those that deny him never knew him-that makes sense! so unfaithfulness cannot mean denial, um, 'cause we can't deny who we already know? ooops, thats too circular, and it also can't apply to the discussion it seemas. I'll butt out of this from now on then...
'If we deny him then he will also deny us
If we are unfaithful to him he will remain faithful to us; he cannot deny himself'
...somthing like that. i cannever memorize anything-save numbers it seems. Anyway is this a oxymoron or whatever? Unless those that deny him never knew him-that makes sense! so unfaithfulness cannot mean denial, um, 'cause we can't deny who we already know? ooops, thats too circular, and it also can't apply to the discussion it seemas. I'll butt out of this from now on then...
For those that are wondering about II Timothy 2 the context is not eternal salvation. We must keep passages in context in order that we do not destroy the original intent of the passage.
10For this reason I endure all things for the sake of those who are chosen, so that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus and with it eternal glory.
Paul was writing in regard to people that were already in possession of eternal salvation. Once a person is saved that issue is never brought up again.
If these people already possessed eternal salvation (which they did) then what is the salvation to which they needed to obtain? Obtaining salvation has to do with one getting salvation not receiving salvation. Another hint that eternal salvation is not in question because eternal salvation is a free gift of God and must be received.
This salvation when comparing Scripture with Scripture is the salvation of the soul, which is a salvation that must be obtained. And with the salvation of the soul comes eternal [age-lasting] glory, which has to do with rulership.
The word eternal should be translated age-lasting. It is the Greek word aionios, which is an adjective of the Greek word aion which means age. An age is a period of time that has a beginning and an end.
The age that is in view here is the age to come, which is the mellinial kingdom where Christ will rule the earth as King of kings and Lord of lords and His bride will rule with Him from the heavens and His brother Israel will rule as the head of the nations with Him from the earth.
If we endure, we will also reign with Him
Again endurance has to do with ones works, which means eternal salvation is not in view, because eternal salvation is by grace based on Christ's works for the individual and not the individuals works.
Reigning with Him is tied to His coming 1,000-year kingdom. If we endure we will reign with Him. If we do not endure then we will not.
If we deny Him, He also will deny us
Again eternal salvation is not in question. A place in His coming kingdom is. If we deny Christ then He will deny us in front of the Father and the angels at the judgment seat of Christ and we will be denied a position in His kingdom.
Denying Christ can mean verbally, but it is equally if not more connected with our works. If we do not walk in the Spirit and deny the flesh and all of those things that a Christian needs to do (confess sins, repent, etc.) then we are denying Christ with our actions.
Bottom line eternal salavtion is not the context of the passage and so therefore those that use this passage to try to say that one can lose their eternal salvation are destroying the context of the passage.
10For this reason I endure all things for the sake of those who are chosen, so that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus and with it eternal glory.
Paul was writing in regard to people that were already in possession of eternal salvation. Once a person is saved that issue is never brought up again.
If these people already possessed eternal salvation (which they did) then what is the salvation to which they needed to obtain? Obtaining salvation has to do with one getting salvation not receiving salvation. Another hint that eternal salvation is not in question because eternal salvation is a free gift of God and must be received.
This salvation when comparing Scripture with Scripture is the salvation of the soul, which is a salvation that must be obtained. And with the salvation of the soul comes eternal [age-lasting] glory, which has to do with rulership.
The word eternal should be translated age-lasting. It is the Greek word aionios, which is an adjective of the Greek word aion which means age. An age is a period of time that has a beginning and an end.
The age that is in view here is the age to come, which is the mellinial kingdom where Christ will rule the earth as King of kings and Lord of lords and His bride will rule with Him from the heavens and His brother Israel will rule as the head of the nations with Him from the earth.
If we endure, we will also reign with Him
Again endurance has to do with ones works, which means eternal salvation is not in view, because eternal salvation is by grace based on Christ's works for the individual and not the individuals works.
Reigning with Him is tied to His coming 1,000-year kingdom. If we endure we will reign with Him. If we do not endure then we will not.
If we deny Him, He also will deny us
Again eternal salvation is not in question. A place in His coming kingdom is. If we deny Christ then He will deny us in front of the Father and the angels at the judgment seat of Christ and we will be denied a position in His kingdom.
Denying Christ can mean verbally, but it is equally if not more connected with our works. If we do not walk in the Spirit and deny the flesh and all of those things that a Christian needs to do (confess sins, repent, etc.) then we are denying Christ with our actions.
Bottom line eternal salavtion is not the context of the passage and so therefore those that use this passage to try to say that one can lose their eternal salvation are destroying the context of the passage.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
If there is genuine interest in the context of the text itself then this will be welcomed. If not - it is just more scripture to be ignored.
Paul has given Timothy the same instruction that Christ gave in the Gospel commission to the disciples in Matt 28 – to “teach others” all that “I have taught you”. The work of these men is to spread the Gospel - - to evangelize – to bring the message of salvation to all. The context for this is “the Gospel teaching” of Paul – and “yes” the Gospel is central to the promise and subject and essence of our salvation!!
Simple questions for those that deny that these letters are applicable to the Gospel scope of Paul's teaching –
#1. Did you notice the explicit “Gospel context” for the teaching and preaching of Paul in 2Tim 1:8-11? And do you accept that the Gospel is central to salvation? Do you see it again in vs 8 of 2Tim 2 above?
Notice also in vs 11 it is “Life and Death” for WE are the ones who died with Him (Rom 6) in baptism.
#2 Then “in that Gospel context” Who is the “we” and “us” of these texts written from Paul to Timothy?
#3 How does the author apply the concept of “endurance” as it relates to salvation and reigning “With Christ”?
[quote]2 Tim 2
11 It is a trustworthy statement: For if we died with Him, we will also live with Him;
12 [b]If we endure[/b], we will also reign with Him; [b]If we deny[/b] Him, He also [b]will deny us;[/b]
13 [b]If we are faithless[/b], He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.
14 Remind them of these things[/b], and solemnly charge them in the presence of God not to wrangle about words, which is useless and leads to the ruin of the hearers.
[/quote]
Those who imagine that the “saved state” is the state of being “denied by Christ” in vs 12 have not fully embraced the text.
Paul has given Timothy the same instruction that Christ gave in the Gospel commission to the disciples in Matt 28 – to “teach others” all that “I have taught you”. The work of these men is to spread the Gospel - - to evangelize – to bring the message of salvation to all. The context for this is “the Gospel teaching” of Paul – and “yes” the Gospel is central to the promise and subject and essence of our salvation!!
Simple questions for those that deny that these letters are applicable to the Gospel scope of Paul's teaching –
#1. Did you notice the explicit “Gospel context” for the teaching and preaching of Paul in 2Tim 1:8-11? And do you accept that the Gospel is central to salvation? Do you see it again in vs 8 of 2Tim 2 above?
Notice also in vs 11 it is “Life and Death” for WE are the ones who died with Him (Rom 6) in baptism.
#2 Then “in that Gospel context” Who is the “we” and “us” of these texts written from Paul to Timothy?
#3 How does the author apply the concept of “endurance” as it relates to salvation and reigning “With Christ”?
[quote]2 Tim 2
11 It is a trustworthy statement: For if we died with Him, we will also live with Him;
12 [b]If we endure[/b], we will also reign with Him; [b]If we deny[/b] Him, He also [b]will deny us;[/b]
13 [b]If we are faithless[/b], He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.
14 Remind them of these things[/b], and solemnly charge them in the presence of God not to wrangle about words, which is useless and leads to the ruin of the hearers.
[/quote]
Those who imagine that the “saved state” is the state of being “denied by Christ” in vs 12 have not fully embraced the text.
Hi Bob, I still contend that the "deny" is in reference to Timothy's ministry. Paul is reminding him of the power there is in Christ and the Holy Spirit and not to shrink back while ministering. Paul knew the forces that would be against Timothy. Persecution of the like that most of us can't even fathom. Paul is telling Timothy that he needs to rely od Christ and not deny that power. Paul then reminds Timothy of where faith comes from. Jesus is Faithful even when our faith fails. Paul is saying if you deny Christ and His power to get through something, don't fear for He will still be there for you. I think with all scripture we must look for the simple explanation first. This way of looking at these verses is so simple and obvious it gets over looked quite easily.
Bob, on the other argument you have and the Lost and loster thing. Let me start with a couple questions I asked rhetorically above.
Was every Jewish person saved and destined for Heaven (paradise), just because they were born Jewish? or of the "House of Isreal"
Is Heaven open to people of every nation now?
Did Jesus make this change by His death and ressurection?
I'll let you answer those for now.
Thanks for your paitence with me and the good debate!!!
In Christ,
Brian
Bob, on the other argument you have and the Lost and loster thing. Let me start with a couple questions I asked rhetorically above.
Was every Jewish person saved and destined for Heaven (paradise), just because they were born Jewish? or of the "House of Isreal"
Is Heaven open to people of every nation now?
Did Jesus make this change by His death and ressurection?
I'll let you answer those for now.
Thanks for your paitence with me and the good debate!!!
In Christ,
Brian
BobRyan you keep on inserting your own context into a passage and you are going to continue to not only misunderstand what is being talked about, but you are going to try to lead people astray with your false doctrine, and unfortunately there are those that aren't well grounded enough or sounded by enough sound teachers that they will fall for your nonsense.
You like many others on this board see a word in a text and unload your meaning on it. You see the word gospel and automatically assume it is speaking of eternal salvation. Well I hate to burst your bubble, but the gospel simply means good news. And there is more to the gospel message than just eternal salvation.
You even highlighted and underline what Paul was talking about and he said my gospel, speaking of Paul's gospel. What was Paul's gospel?
Well this is speaking of when he was taken aside and taught by the Lord the mystery. What was the mystery that Paul was taught? He was taught how the Gentiles could be partakers in what Israel rejected. What did Israel reject? They rejected the kingdom, not eternal salvation.
Now in order for a Gentile to be in a spiritual position to entertain the offer of the kingdom they must first be made alive spiritually. So they must first experience the gospel of salvation by grace through faith apart from works. Then when they were made alive spiritually by the Holy Spirit they were in a condition to where they could accept or reject the offer of the kingdom.
That is where we are today. We need to evangelize folks with the simple gospel message of the free gift of salvation by grace through faith apart from works. Then we need to share the gospel message of that person being redeemed for a purpose and that purpose is to rule and reign with Christ. They can either realize this offer or they can reject this offer.
The picture can be seen in the OT. The Israelites (Christians) were called out of Egypt (the world) and made alive to walk in the newness of life (Red Sea/baptism) in order to dwell in Cannan (kindgom of the heavens).
Unfortunately some of them through disbelief died on the right side of the blood, but short of realizing their calling. So to are we to work out our salvation (of the soul) and so to are we to make our calling sure. But broad is the way of destruction (many saved folks will never realize their calling and will die on the right side of the blood, but short of their calling) and narrow is the way that leads to life (but there will be a number that do realize their calling and will join Christ as co-heirs and His bride and will rule and reign with Him in that coming day).
If people would realize that there is very little said about eternal salvation in the NT, because it is the simplest message, but most of the NT is written for the people that are saved and how they need to live their life so that they can realize their calling in that coming day there would be a lot less confusion and a lot less false teaching.
Plain and simple the context of this passage in 2 Timothy is not eternal salvation and one does not have to worry about losing something that has nothing to do with their works. If there is nothing one can do to get it then there is certainly nothing one can do to lose it, or eternal salvation would be based on the power of the individual and not the power of Christ and the works of Christ. The Bible teaches that eternal salvation is based on Christ and I will continue to believe that and teach that!
You like many others on this board see a word in a text and unload your meaning on it. You see the word gospel and automatically assume it is speaking of eternal salvation. Well I hate to burst your bubble, but the gospel simply means good news. And there is more to the gospel message than just eternal salvation.
You even highlighted and underline what Paul was talking about and he said my gospel, speaking of Paul's gospel. What was Paul's gospel?
Well this is speaking of when he was taken aside and taught by the Lord the mystery. What was the mystery that Paul was taught? He was taught how the Gentiles could be partakers in what Israel rejected. What did Israel reject? They rejected the kingdom, not eternal salvation.
Now in order for a Gentile to be in a spiritual position to entertain the offer of the kingdom they must first be made alive spiritually. So they must first experience the gospel of salvation by grace through faith apart from works. Then when they were made alive spiritually by the Holy Spirit they were in a condition to where they could accept or reject the offer of the kingdom.
That is where we are today. We need to evangelize folks with the simple gospel message of the free gift of salvation by grace through faith apart from works. Then we need to share the gospel message of that person being redeemed for a purpose and that purpose is to rule and reign with Christ. They can either realize this offer or they can reject this offer.
The picture can be seen in the OT. The Israelites (Christians) were called out of Egypt (the world) and made alive to walk in the newness of life (Red Sea/baptism) in order to dwell in Cannan (kindgom of the heavens).
Unfortunately some of them through disbelief died on the right side of the blood, but short of realizing their calling. So to are we to work out our salvation (of the soul) and so to are we to make our calling sure. But broad is the way of destruction (many saved folks will never realize their calling and will die on the right side of the blood, but short of their calling) and narrow is the way that leads to life (but there will be a number that do realize their calling and will join Christ as co-heirs and His bride and will rule and reign with Him in that coming day).
If people would realize that there is very little said about eternal salvation in the NT, because it is the simplest message, but most of the NT is written for the people that are saved and how they need to live their life so that they can realize their calling in that coming day there would be a lot less confusion and a lot less false teaching.
Plain and simple the context of this passage in 2 Timothy is not eternal salvation and one does not have to worry about losing something that has nothing to do with their works. If there is nothing one can do to get it then there is certainly nothing one can do to lose it, or eternal salvation would be based on the power of the individual and not the power of Christ and the works of Christ. The Bible teaches that eternal salvation is based on Christ and I will continue to believe that and teach that!
Hope of Glory
New Member
Yes. So many people try to assign the Jews to an unsaved state until they get to Canaan, but when they departed from Goshen, they were in the promised land (Genesis 15:18; they were saved), which simply began their journey throught the wilderness to the Kingdom, where many fell short.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Briguy said:
No matter "how many times" I SHOW chapter 1 and chapter 2 to be centered in the "Gospel" theme and salvation?
Pretty interesting!
Paul does not say "If our MINISTRY denies Christ - Christ will DENY our Ministry" as you seem to have hoped here.
That too is instructive.
OK when I read "Christ will DENY US" I do not transform that into "and by that he means He will still be there for you".
but you seem to make that leap quite easily.
The text above "says" "IF we deny Him HE will also Deny US" but you have an interesting interpretation of what that "if - then" is saying.
If true then - what a joyous thing to "be denied by Christ" since it means "He will STILL be there for you"!! Wouldn't you agree that IF we could make the transposition that you suggest this becomes an INCENTIVE to deny Him?
In Christ,
Bob
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