How to salvage OSAS in view of Rom 11 and 2Tim2

[BobRyan]

UnchartedSpirit,

You say, verses of Romans are for Jews. Why do Romans 11:20 tells us, that we must be FEAR of the Lord? Obivously, this is not speak to just for Jews only, also, to Gentiles too.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

Excellent point!

 

[BobRyan]

In Romans 11 Paul “shows” the fall of the Jews from the Vine – of Christ (I am the Vine – you are the Branches) but also shows that God continues to love them and seek them EVEN though they are out of His will and in rebellion – and lost. For outside of Christ there is truly “no salvation”. But “the branches are cast into the fire” in the ultimate sense – if they ‘continue in unbelief”.

“I am speaking to YOU who are gentiles” hmm “How telling” for those who had imagined that this chapter was “only written to Jews” since it deals with the danger of being taken out of the vine of Christ,

Rom 11
13But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry,
14 if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them.

Paul is looking to "motivate" the lost “individuals” among the Jews showing his own Individual willingness to trade places. He does not conclude that God will irresistible force them to be saved. Instead of using God's power to alter the will as the "means" to save them, God uses the appeal to CHOICE,
imperfect "motives" - the APPEAL is made and the hope is that some will take it.

Notice “if THEIR rejection” is “reconciliation of the World” – Paul again shows that he references the Jews “as a group” failing and then addresses the Christian church “The WORLD” as being grafted into the vine of Christ through the Gospel as each person accepts the gift of eternal life – faith in Christ and stands in that faith – that “Belief” as Paul calls it in Romans 11.

Rom 11

15For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?
16If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too.
17But [b]if some of the branches were broken off[/b], and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree,
18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.

Clearly this is individuals rejected (as Paul was certainly NOT rejected though a Jew). And it is INDIVIDUAL Gentiles accepted (as ALL pagans were NOT considered Saints by Paul in any sense at all). There are all being grafted “into” the vine of Christ – and as such form “ the church”. They come in based on faith and they remain based on faith.

Just stating the “obvious” here but some have been avoiding this points in desperate attempts to spare the OSAS assumptions that are exposed by Romans 11 while others reject the idea of the ONE Gospel active in the church of God in all ages – grafting all the saints into the SAME vine of Christ.

 

[Eric B]

#1 I did not write John 15 - God did.

#2. The Bible never says that "evangelism" is the fruit of John 15 or of Gal 5 "The fruit of the Spirit".

#3. You are right about the text saying GOD is the one that removes the branches that are IN Christ but do not GROW and produce fruit. HE says they are cast away and burned.

Then what is the fruit there? Remember, this is not talking about someone sliding back into unbelief, but rather simply "not bearing fruit". To slide back into unbelief would be for the branhes to remve themselves.

Why do Romans 11:20 tells us, that we must be FEAR of the Lord? Obivously, this is not speak to just for Jews only, also, to Gentiles too.

Once again, if they make the same mistake as the Jews and trust in their own righteousness, then there is somethign to fear about. Yet, we also get "there is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear: because fear has torment. He that fears is not made perfect in love." (1 John 4:18). One must be talking to a group of people assumed to be believers, while the other is warning people about faking a walk with Christ and trying to get themselves in by presumption or self-justification like the original branch that was cut off did.

 

[Claudia_T]

Notice in John, the branches taken away are those, not who break themselves off, but simply do not bear fruit. Does this mean in your system that we lose salvation if we have not won enough souls, or if we simply don't grow fast enough? You need to examine the full implications of these scriptures you pick.

I havent been following along with all of this but didnt John the Baptist say this:

Mt:3:10: And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

Meaning it isnt that you dont bear fruit because everyone bears some sort of fruit. "By their fruits ye shall know them".

Is it good fruit or bad fruit? Thats the key isnt it?


Mt:7:17: Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.


Mt:7:18: A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.


Mt:7:19: Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

There are the fruits of the Spirit verses the works of the flesh


Once again I havent been following along so maybe this doesnt even have anything to do with what you all are talking about


Another thing is

Mk:4:28: For the earth bringeth forth fruit of herself; first the blade, then the ear, after that the full corn in the ear.

I dont think this is a case of "if we simply dont grow fast enough". If we are in Christ our growth will be good fruit according to our stage in sanctifiction. Like a peach grows... starts out small them gets fuller but its still a peach and still a good fruit.

 

[BobRyan]

Bob said
#1 I did not write John 15 - God did.

#2. The Bible never says that "evangelism" is the fruit of John 15 or of Gal 5 "The fruit of the Spirit".

#3. You are right about the text saying GOD is the one that removes the branches that are IN Christ but do not GROW and produce fruit. HE says they are cast away and burned.

Then Eric said -

Then what is the fruit there?

Gal 5 defines the "Fruit of the Spirit" - as Love joy peace ...

Gal 5
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.

Peter says this -

2Pet 1

2 Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord;
3 seeing that His divine power has granted to us everything pertaining to life and godliness, through the true knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and excellence.
4 For by these He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises, so that by them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust.
5 Now for this very reason also, applying all diligence, in your faith supply moral excellence[/b], and in your moral excellence, knowledge[/b],
6 and in your knowledge, self-control[/b], and in your self-control, perseverance[/b], and in your perseverance, godliness[/b],
7 and in your godliness, brotherly kindness[/b], and in your brotherly kindness, love.[/b]
8 For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they render you neither useless nor unfruitful in the true knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 For he who lacks these qualities is blind or short-sighted, having forgotten his purification from his former sins.
10 Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for [b]as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble;
11 for in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you.

While Peter may "appear" to be stating the case far more harshly than did our Savior in John 15:1-9 I am convinced that Peter is in fact in perfect unity with Christ on this point.

Eric said -
Remember, this is not talking about someone sliding back into unbelief

I think we agree there.

The issue is that the Spirit is a dynamic change agent within the life of the believer. Christ said to Peter "Get thee behind me Satan" in Matt 16 right after saying "BLESSED are you Simon son of Jonah for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you but my father who is in heaven".

Eric
, but rather simply "not bearing fruit". To slide back into unbelief would be for the branhes to remve themselves.

I agree completely. In Matt 7 they say "LORD we are IN - DID we not... and did we not..."

Christ says "NOT everyone who SAYS Lord Lord will enter the Kingdom of heaven but he who DOES the Will of My Father"-

For Christ it was true - "Faith without works is truly dead".



Quote:
Why do Romans 11:20 tells us, that we must be FEAR of the Lord? Obivously, this is not speak to just for Jews only, also, to Gentiles too.
Here Paul points out that same truth as Christ - who shows branches IN The VINE of Christ taken out withering to death and burned in the fire.

But in this case Paul points to those who WERE IN the vine of Christ cast out for "unbelief" and declare that they may be "grafted BACK IN AGAIN" if they do not "continue in that unbelief".

Paul uses that as a warning to Christians WHO ARE NOW IN the vine of Christ saying to them "YOU STAND only by your faith - YOU should therefore FEAR for if He did not SPARE them (who were formerly IN the vine of CHrist) NEITHER will He spare you (who NOW are IN the vine of Christ)"

Eric said
Once again, if they make the same mistake as the Jews and trust in their own righteousness, then there is somethign to fear about.

Yep.

Key point here - Paul is not speakig to LOST people about "A BETTER way to be LOST".

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Eric B]

I havent been following along with all of this but didnt John the Baptist say this:

Mt:3:10: And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

Meaning it isnt that you dont bear fruit because everyone bears some sort of fruit. "By their fruits ye shall know them".

Is it good fruit or bad fruit? Thats the key isnt it?

Mt:7:17: Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

Mt:7:18: A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

Mt:7:19: Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

There are the fruits of the Spirit verses the works of the flesh
Once again I havent been following along so maybe this doesnt even have anything to do with what you all are talking about

But other scriptures speak of "NO fruit" (talents, pounds, fig tree Jesus withered, etc). What you're suggesting then is that "NO fruit"="BAD fruit". Is that correct?

Gal 5 defines the "Fruit of the Spirit" - as Love joy peace ...

So as I said, if we don't grow enough, then, which Claudia apparently denied?

While Peter may "appear" to be stating the case far more harshly than did our Savior in John 15:1-9 I am convinced that Peter is in fact in perfect unity with Christ on this point.

"harsh"? Peter does nto even say anything directly about judgment or condemnation. He says "make your calling sure", which is about faking a walk with God, and not really being converted in the first place.

Key point here - Paul is not speakig to LOST people about "A BETTER way to be LOST".

It's not a better way to be lost. Once again, like in Peter, it is about faking it, and thus a worse way to try to be saved (which is no way at all).

 

[Briguy]

Needed to say this quick, Sorry if this is a repeat but I could not look through 11 pages right now.

In Romans we hav a positional issue not a loss of salvation issue. The branches on God's original tree were the Jews. If you were born a Jew you had the opprtunity to believe and be saved or not believe and be cut off. When Jesus died for the sins of the WORLD, the Gentiles had a place on the tree. They were grafetd in to God's original tree that contained HIS PEOPLE until then. Now as grafetd in branches the Gentiles have a chance to believe and remain a branch or not believe and be cut off. As I said this is just a postional picture that is being painted. It is not doctrine, it is a metaphor of sorts. It is one way of looking at the change that occured when "God's tree" began including the Gentiles. The Romans 11 verses must be read with that in mind and then they make sense and the problem with OSAS being dis-proved goes down the toilet where it belongs :laugh: .
I 'll comment on other verses later.

In Christ,
Brian

 

[Briguy]

1] Thou therefore, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus.
[2] And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also.
[3] Thou therefore endure hardness, as a good soldier of Jesus Christ.
[4] No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.
[5] And if a man also strive for masteries, yet is he not crowned, except he strive lawfully.
[6] The husbandman that laboureth must be first partaker of the fruits.
[7] Consider what I say; and the Lord give thee understanding in all things.
[8] Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:
[9] Wherein I suffer trouble, as an evil doer, even unto bonds; but the word of God is not bound.
[10] Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
[11] It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:
[12] If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
[13] If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.
[14] Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers.
[15] Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
[16] But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.


I wanted to show more of what Paul wrote to Timothy. This has nothing do do with losing salvation. This is simply Paul the preaching missionary giving a pep talk to his young friend and new minister. He shares with Timothy that the road of being faithful in administering the gospel is a dificult one. Paul could say that because of how much he had endured. Read the verses in the context of paul writing to Timothy, not Paul writing to all of us. He is encouraging him and boasting of God's faithfulness. When Paul says if we deny God, he will deny us, he is not talking about salvation. He is saying while Timothy is out on the mission field that if he would lose heart and not believe in God's power that God will deny that power to him. (Miraculous gifts were still in use at that time and may or may not be what Paul is directly talking about) Paul says suffering is a sign of doing things right. He says that if you lose heart and don't believe that God will acomplish something, He is still faithful and will acomplish what he wants. This whole set of verses is about being a good soldier in the Lord. Once read in that context, the meaning with jump off the page at you. We sometimes read scripture too quickly and then it may seem to say something it does not. Bob, or whomever, if you want me to explain any one verse from this section of 2 Tim. I will do that. I don't want to write more then I have to so I will wait and see if I need to go on more. If this argument was made already I apologize for repeating what was said already. No reference to losing salvation here at all. The context dictates quite the contrary. OSAS still stands tall :smilewinkgrin:

In Christ,
Brian

 

[Claudia_T]

The Scriptures warn us in many places against falling away.


Hebrews 6:4-6

For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God, and put Him to open shame.​

​

Hebrews 10:26-27

For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain terrifying expectation of judgment, and the fury of a fire which will consume the adversaries."

​

Hebrews 10:38-39

"But My righteous one shall live by faith; And if he shrinks back, My soul has no pleasure in him. But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul."

"My brethren, if any among you strays from the truth, and one turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death, and will cover a multitude of sins."​

​

2 John 8-9

"Watch yourselves, that you might not lose what we have accomplished, but that you may receive a full reward. Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God; the one who abides in the teaching, he has both the Father and the Son."



Revelation 2:4-5

"'But I have this against you, that you have left your first love. 'Remember therefore from where you have fallen, and repent and do the deeds you did at first; or else I am coming to you, and will remove your lampstand out of its place-unless you repent."​

​

​

Revelation 3:5

"'He who overcomes shall thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father, and before His angels.​

​

Revelation 3:16-17

'So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of My mouth. 'Because you say, "I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing," and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked"​

​

Galatians 5:4

You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.​

​

​

2Peter 5:5-11

For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; and to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love. For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins.

Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall, and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.​

​

 

[Claudia_T]

Even More:


The one who received the seed that fell on rocky places is the man who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. But since he has no root, he lasts only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, he quickly falls away.


1 Timothy 1:18-19

Timothy, my son, I give you this instruction in keeping with the prophecies once made about you, so that by following them you may fight the good fight, holding on to faith and a good conscience. Some have rejected these and so have shipwrecked their faith.​

​

​

1 Timothy 4:1

"But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons"

​

1 Timothy 6:9-10

"But those who want to get rich fall into temptation and a snare and many foolish and harmful desires which plunge men into ruin and destruction. For the love of money is a root of all sorts of evil, and some by longing for it have wandered away from the faith, and pierced themselves with many a pang."​

​

​

1 Timothy 6:20-21

"O Timothy, guard what has been entrusted to you, avoiding worldly and empty chatter and the opposing arguments of what is falsely called "knowledge"-which some have professed and thus gone astray from the faith."


2 Timothy 2:16-18

But avoid worldly and empty chatter, for it will lead to further ungodliness, and their talk will spread like gangrene. Among them are HYMENAEUS and Philetus, men who have gone astray from the truth saying that the resurrection has already taken place, and thus they upset the faith of some.

​

2 Peter 2:1

"But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves."

​

2 Peter 3:17

"You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard lest, being carried away by the error of unprincipled men, you fall from your own steadfastness"​

​

2 Peter 2:20-22

"For if after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment delivered to them. It has happened to them according to the true proverb, "A dog returns to its own vomit," and, "A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire."​

​

 

[J. Jump]

But every time a verse of Scripture is talking about falling away the context is not eternal/spiritual salvation. You all are taking these verses out of their original context to make them fit a false doctrine that doesn't exist.

 

[J. Jump]

Double post - apologies!

 

[BobRyan]

But every time a verse of Scripture is talking about falling away the context is not eternal/spiritual salvation. You all are taking these verses out of their original context to make them fit a false doctrine that doesn't exist.

It might be good to take Romans 11 or John 15 and "Show your work" -- be attentive to "details" in the text that may not please you.

 

[BobRyan]

Bob said
I havent been following along with all of this but didnt John the Baptist say this:

Mt:3:10: And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

Meaning it isnt that you dont bear fruit because everyone bears some sort of fruit. "By their fruits ye shall know them".

Is it good fruit or bad fruit? Thats the key isnt it?

Mt:7:17: Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

Mt:7:18: A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

Mt:7:19: Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

There are the fruits of the Spirit verses the works of the flesh
Once again I havent been following along so maybe this doesnt even have anything to do with what you all are talking about

Eric said
But other scriptures speak of "NO fruit" (talents, pounds, fig tree Jesus withered, etc). What you're suggesting then is that "NO fruit"="BAD fruit". Is that correct?

John 15 mentions the "no fruit problem" and shows the result as being removed out of the vine of Christ then "withered - dead and tossed into the fire"

Matt 7 has the problem of "bad fruit" vs "Good fruit" clearly stated. It is not hard to see that those who "wither" will be exhibiting BAD fruit.

So the "no fruit" scenario would be expected to be followed by the "bad fruit" progression.

 

[BobRyan]

Bob said
Peter says this -

Quote:
2Pet 1
Quote:
2 Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord;
3 seeing that His divine power has granted to us everything pertaining to life and godliness, through the true knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and excellence.
4 For by these He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises, so that by them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust.
5 Now for this very reason also, applying all diligence, in your faith supply moral excellence[/b], and in your moral excellence, knowledge[/b],
6 and in your knowledge, self-control[/b], and in your self-control, perseverance[/b], and in your perseverance, godliness[/b],
7 and in your godliness, brotherly kindness[/b], and in your brotherly kindness, love.[/b]
8 For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they render you neither useless nor unfruitful in the true knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 For he who lacks these qualities is blind or short-sighted, having forgotten his purification from his former sins.
10 Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for [b]as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble;
11 for in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you.

While Peter may "appear" to be stating the case far more harshly than did our Savior in John 15:1-9 I am convinced that Peter is in fact in perfect unity with Christ on this point.

Eric said

"harsh"? Peter does nto even say anything directly about judgment or condemnation. He says "make your calling sure", which is about faking a walk with God, and not really being converted in the first place.

8 For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they render you neither useless nor unfruitful in the true knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 For he who lacks these qualities is blind or short-sighted, having forgotten his purification from his former sins.

And then some want to add "which is more or less still ok so no problems this has nothing to do with enterance into eternal life, heaven etc it is just a nice-to-have idea so don't worry about it"

In other words they say "no real problem here guys - "

And Peter goes on to say

10 Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for [b]as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble

;
11 for in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you.

 

[Briguy]

Claudia, you quoted this verse:

Hebrews 6:4-6

For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God, and put Him to open shame.​

Have you ever really read this verse? Are you saying here that a Christian that falls away can NEVER come back to the Lord. If you are right about this being losing salvation then that is what it must mean. Claudia, is that what you believe? A truely saved person can lose their salvation by falling away and then never have another chance to repent? I think you know how wrong that sounds. If that part is wrong then the passage above you quoted must mean something else, which it does. You are trying to find verses to support your theory rather then fully looking at the verses. This passage has nothing to do with a saved person. The hebrews were an odd bred of folks because they did believe in the correct God, the God of Isreal. What this scriptures says is that beyond the drawing power of the Holy Spirit, there is no other way to get them to believe in Jesus as the Messiah. They were dening that Jesus was the Savior, despite the Holy Spirit drawing them and despite what they were seeing with their very eyes. Beyond that drawing power there is no other way to repentance.

Claudia, I can properly interpret any of the other verses you have quoted and I am not a pastor or in ministry. I am just a Christian, saved by Grace, who loves God and His Word. Since you put so many please give me just one or two others to look at and we can do the rest in time. I like that Bob just used two sections of scripture to start with. When you or I quote verses from many passages in one post then it kind of muddies the water. I'll wait for your response.

Claudia or Bob, Were my other two posts so profound that you could not respond? I thought maybe they would be :smilewinkgrin:

In Christ,
Brian

 

[BobRyan]

If you define "SAVED" as "fallen away IMPOSSIBLE to renew" then you have a problem with the Gospel itself.

IF you define the NOT fallen away position as lost AND the fallen away position as LOST then you preach a gospel about "Lost and Loster" instead of the actual gospel.

What is your view?

 

[BobRyan]

In Romans 11 Paul “shows” the fall of the Jews from the Vine – of Christ (I am the Vine – you are the Branches) but also shows that God continues to love them and seek them EVEN though they are out of His will and in rebellion – and lost. For outside of Christ there is truly “no salvation”. But “the branches are cast into the fire” in the ultimate sense – if they ‘continue in unbelief”.

“I am speaking to YOU who are gentiles” hmm “How telling” for those who had imagined that this chapter was “only written to Jews” since it deals with the danger of being taken out of the vine of Christ,

Quote:
Rom 11
13But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry,
14 if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them.



Paul is looking to "motivate" the lost “individuals” among the Jews showing his own Individual willingness to trade places. He does not conclude that God will irresistible force them to be saved. Instead of using God's power to alter the will as the "means" to save them, God uses the appeal to CHOICE,
imperfect "motives" - the APPEAL is made and the hope is that some will take it.

Notice “if THEIR rejection” is “reconciliation of the World” – Paul again shows that he references the Jews “as a group” failing and then addresses the Christian church “The WORLD” as being grafted into the vine of Christ through the Gospel as each person accepts the gift of eternal life – faith in Christ and stands in that faith – that “Belief” as Paul calls it in Romans 11.

Quote:
Rom 11
Quote:
15For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?
16If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too.
17But [b]if some of the branches were broken off[/b], and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree,
18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.




Clearly this is individuals rejected (as Paul was certainly NOT rejected though a Jew). And it is INDIVIDUAL Gentiles accepted (as ALL pagans were NOT considered Saints by Paul in any sense at all). There are all being grafted “into” the vine of Christ – and as such form “ the church”. They come in based on faith and they remain based on faith.

Just stating the “obvious” here but some have been avoiding this points in desperate attempts to spare the OSAS assumptions that are exposed by Romans 11 while others reject the idea of the ONE Gospel active in the church of God in all ages – grafting all the saints into the SAME vine of Christ.

 

[Claudia_T]

Fallen Away

Claudia, you quoted this verse:

Hebrews 6:4-6

For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God, and put Him to open shame.

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Have you ever really read this verse? Are you saying here that a Christian that falls away can NEVER come back to the Lord. If you are right about this being losing salvation then that is what it must mean. Claudia, is that what you believe? A truely saved person can lose their salvation by falling away and then never have another chance to repent? I think you know how wrong that sounds. If that part is wrong then the passage above you quoted must mean something else, which it does. You are trying to find verses to support your theory rather then fully looking at the verses. This passage has nothing to do with a saved person. The hebrews were an odd bred of folks because they did believe in the correct God, the God of Isreal. What this scriptures says is that beyond the drawing power of the Holy Spirit, there is no other way to get them to believe in Jesus as the Messiah. They were dening that Jesus was the Savior, despite the Holy Spirit drawing them and despite what they were seeing with their very eyes. Beyond that drawing power there is no other way to repentance.

Claudia, I can properly interpret any of the other verses you have quoted and I am not a pastor or in ministry. I am just a Christian, saved by Grace, who loves God and His Word. Since you put so many please give me just one or two others to look at and we can do the rest in time. I like that Bob just used two sections of scripture to start with. When you or I quote verses from many passages in one post then it kind of muddies the water. I'll wait for your response.

Claudia or Bob, Were my other two posts so profound that you could not respond? I thought maybe they would be :smilewinkgrin:

In Christ,
Brian

Brian, I would have to say that "fallen away" in that verse at least, means someone who once knew the gospel message and was a true Christian but then they rejected, rejected, rejected the Holy Spirit in whatever way, refusing to listen and thus they finally blasphemed the Holy Spirt, meaning their conscience became dead and no longer able to hear God speaking them them. Thus, it isnt that God is unwilling to save them, its that they have rendered themselves incapable of responding.

I'll read your other 2 posts in a bit...

 

[BobRyan]

Needed to say this quick, Sorry if this is a repeat but I could not look through 11 pages right now.

In Romans we hav a positional issue not a loss of salvation issue. The branches on God's original tree were the Jews. If you were born a Jew you had the opprtunity to believe and be saved or not believe and be cut off. When Jesus died for the sins of the WORLD, the Gentiles had a place on the tree. They were grafetd in to God's original tree that contained HIS PEOPLE until then. Now as grafetd in branches the Gentiles have a chance to believe and remain a branch or not believe and be cut off.

Huge problem for your idea Brian -

You have BOTH believers AND unbelievers as those GRAFTED IN you define Grafted IN as BOTH the state of belief AND of unbelief "with a CHANCE to believe".

Then you must be defining "removed OUT of the vine" as "NO CHANCE to believe" if you define "IN the VINE" as UNBELIEVERS with a CHANCE to believe.

But the text does not support that story at all!

Paul says explicitly of those that WERE REMOVED from the Vine of Christ that IF they do not persist in UNBELIEVE THEN in that case "HE is able to GRAFT them IN AGAIN".

In all cases OUT of the vine is UNBELIEF and IN the vine is Belief.

You have to quote the text "in detail" and make your case - if you had I don't think you would have made that mistake.

In Christ,

Bob