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How to salvage OSAS in view of Rom 11 and 2Tim2

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
BobRyan said:
No matter "how many times" I SHOW chapter 1 and chapter 2 to be centered in the "Gospel" them and salvation?

Pretty interesting!

Paul does not say "If our MINISTRY denies Christ - Christ will DENY our Ministry" as you seem to have hoped here.

That too is instructive.



OK when I read "Christ will DENY US" I do not transform that into "and by that he means He will still be there for you".

but you seem to make that leap quite easily.

The text above "says" "IF we deny Him HE will also Deny US" but you have an interesting interpretation of what that "if - then" is saying.

If true then - what a joyous thing to "be denied by Christ" since it means "He will STILL be there for you"!! Wouldn't you agree that IF we could make the transposition that you suggest this becomes an INCENTIVE to deny Him?


In Christ,

Bob
Brian

I think with all scripture we must look for the simple explanation first. This way of looking at these verses is so simple and obvious it gets over looked quite easily.

Bob, on the other argument you have and the Lost and loster thing. Let me start with a couple questions I asked rhetorically above.

Was every Jewish person saved and destined for Heaven (paradise), just because they were born Jewish? or of the "House of Isreal"

No.

Brian

Is Heaven open to people of every nation now?

Yes - and always has been since pre-cross "God so Loved the World".

Did Jesus make this change by His death and ressurection?

No. God did not "start so loving the World AFTER the death of Christ".

God "so loved the World that He Gave".

Those seen in Heb 11 are from both Jew and non-Jew. Both from Israel and non-Israel. Both examples of Hebrew and non-Hebrew OT saints listed there.

Abel is a member of "mankind" he is not simply "a Jew".

Noah's family is not "Jewish" - they are saved Noah "walks with God" according to Genesis 5.

Or do you suppose that before Abraham "God so loved the World" but with Abraham (in you shall ALL nations of the Earth be blessed) God STOPPED so loving the World - only to START UP again when He decided to send Christ to earth?
 
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BobRyan

Well-Known Member
Finally - you are not looking at the details in Romans 11 "He is able to graft them in AGAIN if they do not CONTINUE in their unbelief".

If being out of the vine means "No chance of being grafted in AGAIN" if it means "no chance of BELIEF" then Romans 11 needs to be edited.
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
Hope of Glory said:
Yes. So many people try to assign the Jews to an unsaved state until they get to Canaan, but when they departed from Goshen, they were in the promised land (Genesis 15:18; they were saved), which simply began their journey throught the wilderness to the Kingdom, where many fell short.

If "the Gospel" in the OT is limited to "realestate for sinful man and then you die and go to hell" then fine - all Israel was saved in the OT while in Caanan and God taught "another Gospel".

But Heb 4 says "We have been preached the Gospel JUST as THEY ALSO" -- ONE Gospel in ALL ages!
 

J. Jump

New Member
Whatever happened to the promise I will never leave you nor forsake you. What happened to I will be with you and I am with you always. Those weren't conditional promises.

Again it has been shown that BobRyan is assigning his own meaning to these passages and thus destroying the true meaning of what is laid out.

ONE Gospel in ALL ages!

That is not entirely correct. That is correct in that every person throughout human history has been saved by grace through faith. That is a true statement that the gospel of eternal savlation has been the same. However there is not just one gospel message.

There is good news to the person that is dead in their trespasses and sin, and that is that Jesus Christ died according to the Scriptures in their stead and shed His blood to cover their sin.

But once that person has heard the good news of eternal salvation there is then good news for the "saved" person, and that is that Christ rose again and defeated death and that He is one day coming back to establish His kingdom and if we walk according to the Scriptures we can have a part in that coming kingdom. Or we can like the OT Israelites not believe or continue to walk in sin and we will not experience that aspect of the good news. And just like Esau and Reuben it is an inheritance that can be forfeited.
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
However there is not just one gospel message.

There is good news to the person that is dead in their trespasses and sin, and that is that Jesus Christ died according to the Scriptures in their stead and shed His blood to cover their sin.

But once that person has heard the good news of eternal salvation there is then good news for the "saved" person, and that is that Christ rose again and defeated death and that He is one day coming back to establish His kingdom and if we walk according to the Scriptures we can have a part in that coming kingdom. Or we can like the OT Israelites not believe or continue to walk in sin and we will not experience that aspect of the good news. And just like Esau and Reuben it is an inheritance that can be forfeited.


If you wake up in the night and the house is on fire - but there is a fireman standing at your door showing you the way out "The Good news" is that you can follow the fireman to safety. Once you are outside you can also remain safe by STAYING outside.

But if you go back in the fire, or if you ignore the fireman, or if you just roll over and go back to sleep -- none of those options is "good news".
 

J. Jump

New Member
That would be "you"

I figure you know the verses I am speaking of and there are no conditions placed on those texts, yet you say the promises are the Bible and the no conditions are something that I made up, but there are no conditions in the Bible either, so that would be the Bible as well.

Please show me where Jesus said that He would never leave us nor forsake us "unless" - see that's where BobRyan starts to insert person beliefs into the text.

Please show me where Jesus said and I will be with you always "except under these circumstances" even unto the end of the age. I don't ever remembering seeing that.
 

J. Jump

New Member
If you wake up in the night and the house is on fire - but there is a fireman standing at your door showing you the way out "The Good news" is that you can follow the fireman to safety. Once you are outside you can also remain safe by STAYING outside.

But if you go back in the fire, or if you ignore the fireman, or if you just roll over and go back to sleep -- none of those options is "good news".


BoB that was a great story. Too bad it had nothing to do with the Bible.
 

Hope of Glory

New Member
Since BobRyan cannot seem to distinguish types in the Bible, I will once again post the essay on types. The travels of the children of Israel are a type. When they left Egypt, they were saved. By faith they went out. Then, they were baptized. Then, they wandered in the wilderness. Then, some of them (the children of the children of Israel and a couple of others) made it to the land flowing with milk and honey, which is a type of the Kingdom; the better part of their inheritance. They were already in the promised land, the instand the took their first step toward the land flowing with milk and honey.

THE STUDY OF TYPES

[1 Corinthians 10:11] The OT has been called, “The Neglected Continent of the Bible.” Many know the OT for just a few favorite chapters. Others think of it only as giving a few biographical sketches. But few realize that for every New Testament doctrine, there is a type in the Old Testament. Historical events took place as recorded in the OT in order to illustrate, typify, or symbolize NT truths.

The OT contains the object lesson, and the NT contains the explanation of that object lesson. Proverbs 25:2 says, “It is the glory of God to conceal a thing; but the glory of kings is to search out a matter.” The OT is God's picture book; His object lessons; His building blocks. In the NT these blocks are put together and they always spell out or point to some phase of the person or work of the Lord Jesus Christ and our relation to Him. The coats of skin with which God covered Adam and Eve; the sacrifices of Cain and Abel; the names of the Old Testament characters; Noah's Ark; Egypt; Pharaoh; the ten plagues; the Passover; the Red Sea; the wilderness; the manna; the Jordan River; the land of promise, etc. — All of these are types and are written for our admonition.

Our Lord reproved the disciples on the road to Emmaus as “fools and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets had spoken.” The prophets spoke in type, symbol, materials, colors, animals, buildings, persons, events, and in divers manners concerning Christ. Just think for one minute — everything in the Tabernacle: the shape, materials, colors — all that was in the Tabernacle portrays something about Christ and His ministry and work.

In the Book of [Hebrews 5:10, 11], the Spirit of the Lord rebukes Christians very sharply for their imperfect knowledge of Melchizedek as a type of Christ in His coming Kingdom, when He shall be the Prince of peace and King of kings; thus beyond any shadow of doubt, it is the duty and privilege of Christians, with the help of the Holy Spirit of God, to search into the types of the Scripture and come to a correct understanding of them. In fact, the types of Scripture — especially those relating to Christ's return, rule, judgment, kingdom, and the part Christians may have in this kingdom, and kindred subjects — are called by the Spirit of the Lord, the meat of the Word. Christians are urged to leave the milk of the Word, the elementary things pertaining to salvation, and to go on to maturity by feeding on the meat, that is, the types of the Word of Righteousness — the OT.

Though the word “type” does not occur in the KJV, it does occur in the Greek text. In 1 Corinthians 10:6-11, we have the word tupoi from the word tupos, from which comes our English word type. In Hebrews 9:24 and 1 Peter 3:21, we have the words antitupa and antitupon from which comes our word antitype. A type is a divine illustration of some truth or doctrine, which is foreshadowed. For instance, the Passover lamb and its characteristics (blood — shedding, application of the blood on the doorposts and lintel, which brought deliverance to the firstborn of Israel) all these are types of the Lord Jesus Christ. Again, Egypt is a type of the world from which we are delivered. The wilderness is a type of our pilgrimage from the time of salvation until we enter the Land Flowing With Milk and Honey. Canaan is a type of the Millennial land and the reign of Christ and His saints who qualify to reign with Him.
 

rooster25

New Member
Bob

Bob What Does 2tim Mean When It Says ..if We Are Faithless He Remains Faithful For He Cannot Deny Himself?? Thanks Rusty
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
Paul argues both points for God -
"If we deny HIM - He does not deny HIMSELF" - (Just because you SAY there is no God does not make God cease to exist. Just because you live as a pagan after being saved does not make God accept paganism as HIS way or as approved or as no longer condemned to hell).

"If we deny HIM - he will ALSO deny US" - so that JUST as we fully deny God in living like Pagans (for those who are saved and then go back to pagan rebellion against God on some point) so God just as fully denies us.
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
JJ references the Bible

Whatever happened to the promise I will never leave you nor forsake you.

What happened to I will be with you and I am with you always.

That would be the Bible...


JJ adds his own ideas
Those weren't conditional promises.
Bob notes the obvious -

That would be "you"

J. Jump said:
I figure you know the verses I am speaking of and there are no conditions placed on those texts

That is the "snippet" appraoch NOT Bible exegesis. Ezek 18 and Matt 18 etc have made it clear that what is not given WITH condition explicitly when it comes to the Gospel DOES have condition!

Those who think "God is trapped into taking the pagan to heaven" are making the same mistake that the Jews were making in Romans 2!!

In Christ,

Bob
 

J. Jump

New Member
That is the "snippet" appraoch NOT Bible exegesis. Ezek 18 and Matt 18 etc have made it clear that what is not given WITH condition explicitly when it comes to the Gospel DOES have condition!

Those who think "God is trapped into taking the pagan to heaven" are making the same mistake that the Jews were making in Romans 2!!

What in the world are you talking about. Don't you think if it was so important for those people to know that Christ would only be with them "if" . . . then He would have said that at that very moment?

You do an awful lot of assuming in your way of looking at the Bible. And you keep combining messages instead of picking one and sticking to it.

when it comes to the Gospel DOES have condition!

Once again what gospel are you talking about?

Are you talking about the gospel of eternal salvation (which I think you are by the way)? Then if you answer yes you are in correct, because eternal salvation is not a contractual obligation between a Supervisor and an employee. Eternal salvation is based on God's grace alone.

Are you talking about the gospel that one day a saved individual can rule and reign with Christ? Then if you answer yes to that question you would be correct. There are strings attached
 

J. Jump

New Member
so that JUST as we fully deny God in living like Pagans (for those who are saved and then go back to pagan rebellion against God on some point) so God just as fully denies us.

Hey something we can actually agree on.

However the question is Christ denies these people in relation to what? You would say eternal salvation and that's where the Bible disagrees with you, because that is not what is in view.

Saved individuals can not live a life of rebellion and not suffer the consequences in this life or the next life. But don't make the mistake in thinking the next life is eternity, because there is an age to come before eternity begins and that is the 1,000-year reign of Christ.
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
The Bible never describes the "saved state" as the state of "Being denied by Christ" - but I can see why your traditions need you to "imagine" such a text.
 

J. Jump

New Member
The Bible never describes the "saved state" as the state of "Being denied by Christ"
You are absolutely right...so what's your point?

The denial of Christ is not in relation to eternal salvation, because you have ripped a verse from its context to make it keep with your traditions not the teachings of the Bible.

but I can see why your traditions need you to "imagine" such a text.

I don't imagine such a text, because it doesn't exist. If you are a saved individual then it is a done deal. The matter will never be brought up again. There will be no opportunity for Christ to confess you or deny you in regard to eternal salvation.

There is only one view of judgment and that is a judgment based on a person's works done in this body. And we know that if man's works are in view that eternal salvation is not in view. How do we know that? Because context tells us so.

So confession or denial on the part of Christ is based upon a person's works not whether or not they are saved or lost. That judgment happens while a person is still alive. After you die or as a Christian are raptured the only thing that will be judged is works.

You can keep twisting and dancing and all the things you want to do Bob, the plain fact of the matter is Scripture does not present itself the way you want it to be presented.
 

J. Jump

New Member
Bob the point is you have no point. You are absolutely right in that the Bible doesn't make that claim. I agree with you. With that being said that tells you that the context of the passage you are looking at doesn't have the meaning that you want to assign to it.

It's pretty simple.
 

UnchartedSpirit

New Member
then nothing written in the Bible can deny me enternal salvation, as I have tried to reject Christ several times after I was saved and Baptized, and could never Wipe away his forgiveness or kill my newly created spirit. Not that I plan to do so again since Jesus has given me a tremendous victory over a bad habit I've had since 12, which conforms his eternal Love over me.
 

genesis12

Member
JJ:

If you are a saved individual then it is a done deal. The matter will never be brought up again. There will be no opportunity for Christ to confess you or deny you in regard to eternal salvation.

There is only one view of judgment and that is a judgment based on a person's works done in this body. And we know that if man's works are in view that eternal salvation is not in view. How do we know that? Because context tells us so.

So confession or denial on the part of Christ is based upon a person's works not whether or not they are saved or lost. That judgment happens while a person is still alive. After you die or as a Christian are raptured the only thing that will be judged is works.

I wish you had posted this about 150 posts ago! :thumbs: Would you mind commenting on the "denial" part in the last paragraph? Is it the quality of the works? The quality of the effort? Thanks!
 
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