How To Treat A Calvanist! Should we cut off Calvanists from the Body????

[JSM17]

Total hereditary depravity: babies inherit the sin of Adam and are totally depraved and therefore unable to respond to the gospel message of Christ.

Unconditional election: (or predestination) God had a master list of those who will be saved and those who will go to hell before creation in Gen 1:1. The list is unchangeable.

Limited atonement: Christ did not die for all men but only those on the "saved list"

Irresistible grace: God sends the Holy Spirit only those on the saved list which removes their depraved nature inherited from Adam and creates within them a saving faith in Christ. The Holy Spirit thereafter guides them directly to understand and correctly interpret the Bible.

Perseverance of the saints: A child of God once saved, cannot be lost.

 

[gb93433]

Calvinism is not a singular doctrine. Many folks who would never dream of calling themselves Calvinists hold to some Calvinistic beliefs.

I agree. That could be said of the RCC too. Baptists agree with some of the doctrines of the RCC .

That's because Calvinism stems from the Bible -- not a man.

What was Calvinism called before John Calvin showed up on the scene?

 

[gb93433]

Total hereditary depravity: babies inherit the sin of Adam and are totally depraved and therefore unable to respond to the gospel message of Christ.

How is that different than the RCC doctrine of original sin?

 

[annsni]

Total hereditary depravity: babies inherit the sin of Adam and are totally depraved and therefore unable to respond to the gospel message of Christ.

Unconditional election: (or predestination) God had a master list of those who will be saved and those who will go to hell before creation in Gen 1:1. The list is unchangeable.

Limited atonement: Christ did not die for all men but only those on the "saved list"

Irresistible grace: God sends the Holy Spirit only those on the saved list which removes their depraved nature inherited from Adam and creates within them a saving faith in Christ. The Holy Spirit thereafter guides them directly to understand and correctly interpret the Bible.

Perseverance of the saints: A child of God once saved, cannot be lost.

LOL - Quite using the blinders to view the doctrine of grace huh?

So instead do you have:

Babies born pure and without the need of a Savior.

God lied when He speaks in Scripture of predestination and election. He has no control over who comes to Him or not.

Christ died for everyone - so everyone gets to go to heaven.

The Holy Spirit goes to everyone but He's not powerful enough to save those He goes to.

And finally, man can go to God, leave God, go to God and leave God. But for those who want to stay with God better mind their P's and Q's to be sure they don't lose their salvation because, after all, it was their own work that saved them and not God because God wasn't powerful enough to do anything to get them to accept Him. It was all man's doing.


So is that the accurate view of the non-Calvinist side?

I don't think so.

Might want to study up on what the doctrine of grace truly is. Hint - it's in the Bible.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Gb93433: What was Calvinism called before John Calvin showed up on the scene?

HP: Augustinian error. Calvinism is built upon the Augustinian error that sin lies in the constitution of the flesh and not in the will. It confuses the will with the sensibilities, a cardinal and foundational error that simply was not known to the Church as accepted doctrine prior to Augustine.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Ann: LOL - Quite using the blinders to view the doctrine of grace huh?

So instead do you have:

Babies born pure and without the need of a Savior.

HP: Certainly babies need no Savior. They are not sinners neither are they moral agents. Show us where babies are defiled with sin from Scripture. It simply is not there.

Ann: God lied when He speaks in Scripture of predestination and election. He has no control over who comes to Him or not.

Christ died for everyone - so everyone gets to go to heaven.

HP: I would see that as an issue you indeed must grapple with. Tell us Ann, how can one in the end be lost when ALL sins have literally been paid for as the Calvinistic literal payment assumes once for all? If you desire to hold to predestination and election in the Calvinistic sense of them, you also, as did Calvin, have to admit that double predestination is an inescapable end of that argument. If God predestines the saved apart from anything they do or are involved in, God must predestine the damned to their fate as well. Such nonsense makes god out to be the author of all sin, a most absurd doctrine that is a insult to the Holy and Just character of God.

Ann: The Holy Spirit goes to everyone but He's not powerful enough to save those He goes to.

HP: Tell us Ann, why does He chose to save some and chose to damn others by withholding that which He alone is able to provide fro their escape?? Here again the notions you are espousing necessitate double predestination.

Ann: And finally, man can go to God, leave God, go to God and leave God. But for those who want to stay with God better mind their P's and Q's to be sure they don't lose their salvation because, after all, it was their own work that saved them and not God because God wasn't powerful enough to do anything to get them to accept Him. It was all man's doing.

HP: That is nothing more or less than a paper duck of your own making. No one claims anything close to your conclusions, and neither does logic demand such conclusions from those that believe the will of man is indeed involved in the salvation process. God provides the way but the will of man must not only act in accordance to it, but remain faithful to the end to be found in Christ at the judgment. God promises to help IF we but yield to His influences.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Ann: So is that the accurate view of the non-Calvinist side?

I don't think so.

Might want to study up on what the doctrine of grace truly is. Hint - it's in the Bible.

HP: If it is not an accurate view that you presented, why present it that way? Are you suggesting that TULIP is not an accurate portrayal of Calvinistic views?

Explain to us what you see as a true doctrine of grace so we can better understand you.

 

[donnA]

You can cut off anyone you want, if you want to be ignorant,, but it doesn't mean God does. A person needs to make sure with God's word first.
Thers an old saying, best to be thought a fool then to open your mouth and remove all doubt, she might want stay quiet.

 

[TomMann]

I find God declaring his sovereignty throughout scripture. I have no problem in accepting the five points declared by the Senate of Dort in response to Arminius' suppositions. I also have no problem with anyone, for any reason, deciding to break fellowship with me, that is their decision. I'll still sleep very well at night.

 

[donnA]

What was Calvinism called before John Calvin showed up on the scene?

grace

......

 

[JSM17]

Here is some Calvinistic Grace for you that is not taught in scripture. Notice also that all the tenents must stay together, if you can remove one tenent as being false they all are false and cannot stand without the other. So let us start with the one that most non-"Hyper"-Calvinist" remove from the list while trying to remain faithful to the rest:

Many do not want to say that Jesus only died for the elect, why because the bible does not teach that. So Calvinism is not scritural. To declare that our Lord only dies for a few is heritical and denies Christ of who and what He did.

Limited Atonement contradicts the Bible because:
A. The Bible says that Jesus died for all men.
1 John 2:1 "My little children, I am writing these things to you that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; 2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world."
Luke 19:10
2 Corinthians 5:14-15
Hebrews 2:9
B. His blood can wash away anyone's sin.
John 1:29
1 John 2:1-2
C. The gospel is for all men.
Mark 16:15-16
Romans 1:16

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

TomMann: I find God declaring his sovereignty throughout scripture. I have no problem in accepting the five points declared by the Senate of Dort in response to Arminius' suppositions. I also have no problem with anyone, for any reason, deciding to break fellowship with me, that is their decision. I'll still sleep very well at night.

HP: Tom, no one denies that God is Sovereign in some sense(s) that I know of. It is the particular notion that Calvinist’s or those leaning hard towards Calvinism that is attached to the word Sovereign where disagreement enters. Calvinistic thought sets free will and Sovereinty at antipodes with each other, while Scripture does not. Scripture presents God in His Sovereignty as allowing free will in man.

Tell me Tom, what stops a Sovereign God from allowing man to be the first cause of his moral intents? Moral accountability and justice demand that man is a first cause of his moral intents to be blamed or praised. Why would one deny in their theology a notion they hold to every day in real life?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Donna, could you define grace as you use it for the list? Thanks.

 

[annsni]

HP: Certainly babies need no Savior. They are not sinners neither are they moral agents. Show us where babies are defiled with sin from Scripture. It simply is not there.

How does that square with Psalm 58:3? I didn't realize that "For ALL have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God" has someone not included in the "all". I always thought it was pretty all-inclusive.

HP: I would see that as an issue you indeed must grapple with. Tell us Ann, how can one in the end be lost when ALL sins have literally been paid for as the Calvinistic literal payment assumes once for all? If you desire to hold to predestination and election in the Calvinistic sense of them, you also, as did Calvin, have to admit that double predestination is an inescapable end of that argument. If God predestines the saved apart from anything they do or are involved in, God must predestine the damned to their fate as well. Such nonsense makes god out to be the author of all sin, a most absurd doctrine that is a insult to the Holy and Just character of God.

If everyone is heading to hell already, how is it that God has to double predestinate people? He stops some from going to hell. He doesn't make the others head to hell. They do a good enough job on their own. However, even if God DID predestinate those to hell, who am I to say that it's unfair? God destroyed entire nations - He even destroyed the entire world except 8 people and 2 of every animal. God is not the author of sin - but He certainly is just. He's also merciful and chooses some to salvation for HIS glory. Not man's.

HP: Tell us Ann, why does He chose to save some and chose to damn others by withholding that which He alone is able to provide fro their escape?? Here again the notions you are espousing necessitate double predestination.

answered above - whatever God does, it's for His glory. I'm just the clay. I have no right to say that God is wrong.

HP: That is nothing more or less than a paper duck of your own making. No one claims anything close to your conclusions, and neither does logic demand such conclusions from those that believe the will of man is indeed involved in the salvation process. God provides the way but the will of man must not only act in accordance to it, but remain faithful to the end to be found in Christ at the judgment. God promises to help IF we but yield to His influences.

[/quote]

This idea is not supported in Scripture. You are making salvation a work of man - not of God. Where is the boasting? Not in Calvinism. It IS in man's will.

 

[annsni]

HP: If it is not an accurate view that you presented, why present it that way? Are you suggesting that TULIP is not an accurate portrayal of Calvinistic views?

Explain to us what you see as a true doctrine of grace so we can better understand you.

I presented it that way because the doctrine of grace was presented wrongly with an obvious misunderstanding and bias. I was showing the folly of that.

 

[annsni]

Here is some Calvinistic Grace for you that is not taught in scripture. Notice also that all the tenents must stay together, if you can remove one tenent as being false they all are false and cannot stand without the other. So let us start with the one that most non-"Hyper"-Calvinist" remove from the list while trying to remain faithful to the rest:

Many do not want to say that Jesus only died for the elect, why because the bible does not teach that. So Calvinism is not scritural. To declare that our Lord only dies for a few is heritical and denies Christ of who and what He did.

Limited Atonement contradicts the Bible because:
A. The Bible says that Jesus died for all men.
1 John 2:1 "My little children, I am writing these things to you that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; 2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world."

Luke 19:10
2 Corinthians 5:14-15
Hebrews 2:9
B. His blood can wash away anyone's sin.
John 1:29
1 John 2:1-2
C. The gospel is for all men.
Mark 16:15-16
Romans 1:16

Yet not all are saved. Why?

 

[Tom Butler]

How does one read this scripture verse:

John 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

 

[Tom Butler]

How should we read this verse:

Jeremiah 24:7 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws.

 

[Tom Butler]

Does "world" in the following passage mean every person without exception?

II Corinthians 5:19 ...that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.

 

[JSM17]

1 John 2:1 "My little children, I am writing these things to you that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; 2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world."

Limited Atonement is a false doctrine, Christ did not just die for some, He died for all.

Pointing at the fact that many will not be saved has nothing to do with whether Jesus died for all.

According to Calvinism Christ only died for the ones that God chose to be merciful to. The rest He decided not to be merciful.

Does God desire all men to be saved? If so then why are not all men saved?