How we obtain our faith?, we receive our faith by divine allotment

[Scott Downey]

God in the past saw who would and who would not believe of their own will. God did not impose his will upon them, forcing them to believe or "failing to force" others to believe.



One has to remember chapter 4, where it says Abraham's faith was not weak (because faith can be weak). If one takes the view that God/Jesus Christ grant faith, then what is the deal with weak faith? Who gave someone "little faith"? God?

Romans 4:20-24

Does it say Abraham "staggered not" because God gave him a good strong faith, instead of a weak, little faith? Does Paul say that to us also, righteousness can be imputed IF GOD GRANTS US FAITH? NO. It will be imputed IF WE believe. We must act in faith. We are not enjoined to hope God will gives us some faith. We are enjoined to act of ourselves with faith.

Can you believe in Christ without faith, I dont think so.
We dont hope for faith, we might hope for more faith. God grants for us to believe in Christ, that is active, no granting, no believing, no faith.

John 6 really lays it all out, why dont you believe what Christ says?

36 But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe.
37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me,
44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.
45 It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.’ Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.
63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.
64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him.
65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”
(v65 means God grants faith in Christ as a gift)


Then in John 10, Jesus says you do not believe because your not of my Sheep. It is really clearly written.

25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father’s name, they bear witness of Me.
26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you.
27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.

God does not impose His will over us, neither does God force anyone to believe. He simply makes us new creations in Christ, then as He teaches to us our faith as a gift, we will have faith enough to believe.
Our faith can grow.
Their is a learning process, that is of the Holy Spirit.
Regeneration always precedes faith in Christ, it is just the beginning and it is instantaneous.
Regenerate (born of God as a babe)
Holy Spirit teaching us , everyone taught of the Holy Spirit comes to Christ. He wont waste His time teaching those who He does not make born of God.

Another confusion is that the Holy Spirit teaches everyone, if He did then all would come to Christ and be saved.
Another confusion is being born of God, meaning saved, but we are not saved unless we believe and confess Him as Lord.
It is just the first thing that must happen for us to see who Christ is. John 3:3

None of this is complicated, men make it complicated because they dont believe Jesus's words.
Unless God grants you to come to Christ, then you will not believe in Christ, cause your faith is of the Holy Spirt, no one can say Jesus is LORD except by the Holy Spirit.
1 Corinthians 12:3
If they can not say Jesus is LORD except by the Holy Spirit, that is proof enough they can not have faith in Christ except by the working power of Holy Spirit.
People who say they can have their own faith apart from God's Holy Spirit, deny some very basic scriptures.

God's Gift of Faith | Reformed Bible Studies & Devotionals at Ligonier.org
Today we return to our look at the biblical doctrines outlined in the Heidelberg Catechism. We are in question and answer 65, which begins the section of the catechism devoted to the sacraments and their role in the Christian life. The matter at hand is this: If faith is the sole instrumental cause of justification — the only way we may have the righteousness of Christ imputed to our accounts (2 Cor. 5:21; Gal. 2:15–16) — from where does our faith come?

First, we must look at the ultimate origin of our faith. Without a doubt, most modern evangelicals believe that human beings have an innate capacity for Godglorifying faith — that even unregenerate sinners are able to work up trust in the gospel and that faith comes before a changed heart. Despite the popularity of this view, it is inconsistent with biblical revelation. Romans 8:7–8 explains that it is impossible for minds set on the flesh to please God and obey Him. People who are not in Christ are in the flesh, so they lack the ability to do the Lord’s will. Since His will for us is that we trust in His promises, unbelievers are incapable in themselves of believing in Christ Jesus for salvation. Furthermore, John 3:3 says that we cannot even see the kingdom of God unless we are first born again by the Spirit. If we cannot see God’s kingdom, we can by no means enter it. In sum, faith can arise only from a new heart. To put it in theological categories: regeneration precedes faith.

Faith is a gift of the Lord to undeserving people, the outworking of God’s electing grace and the atonement of Jesus for His own. Ephesians 2:8 confirms the truth that faith is ultimately a gift of God. “The gift of God” in the original Greek appears in the neuter grammatical form, which means that it refers back to both grace and faith earlier in the verse. Grace and faith are divine gifts, and our Father does not give them to all people. Only this view of faith is consistent with the biblical teaching on the pervasiveness of our depravity and our desperate state apart from Christ.

 

[ad finitum]

Can you believe in Christ without faith, I dont think so.
We dont hope for faith, we might hope for more faith. God grants for us to believe in Christ, that is active, no granting, no believing, no faith.

John 6 really lays it all out, why dont you believe what Christ says?

36 But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe.
37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me,
44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.
45 It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.’ Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.
63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.
64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him.
65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”
(v65 means God grants faith in Christ as a gift)

That argument is quoting out of context. For instance, John 5:38 gives the reason why the Father doesn't draw someone to Jesus. That's why they don't believe. It has nothing to do with God deciding to not give them faith.

 

[utilyan]

STRONGS NT 2975: λαγχάνω
λαγχάνω: 2 aorist ἔλαχον;
1. to obtain by lot (from Homer down): with the genitive of the thing, Luke 1:9 (cf. Buttmann, 269 (231); Winers Grammar, 319 (299)); to receive by divine allotment, obtain: τί, Acts 1:17; 2 Peter 1:1; on the construction of this verb with the genitive and accusative of the thing, see Matthiae, § 328; Winers Grammar, 200 (188); (cf. Buttmann, § 132, 8).

2 Peter 1:1
New International Version

1 Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ,

To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours:

2 Peter 1:1
King James Version

1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

"to receive by divine allotment, obtain"


No kidding faith is a gift

HOW does one get it?

If God wants to give you gasoline is he required to pour it out of his mouth into your car?

 

[AustinC]

That argument is quoting out of context. For instance, John 5:38 gives the reason why the Father doesn't draw someone to Jesus. That's why they don't believe. It has nothing to do with God deciding to not give them faith.

It seems you are trying to use John 5:38 out of context and force your pretext upon it.

John 5:32-47

There is another who bears witness about me, and I know that the testimony that he bears about me is true. You sent to John, and he has borne witness to the truth. Not that the testimony that I receive is from man, but I say these things so that you may be saved. He was a burning and shining lamp, and you were willing to rejoice for a while in his light. But the testimony that I have is greater than that of John. For the works that the Father has given me to accomplish, the very works that I am doing, bear witness about me that the Father has sent me. And the Father who sent me has himself borne witness about me. His voice you have never heard, his form you have never seen, and you do not have his word abiding in you, for you do not believe the one whom he has sent. You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me, yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life. I do not receive glory from people. But I know that you do not have the love of God within you. I have come in my Father’s name, and you do not receive me. If another comes in his own name, you will receive him. How can you believe, when you receive glory from one another and do not seek the glory that comes from the only God? Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father. There is one who accuses you: Moses, on whom you have set your hope. For if you believed Moses, you would believe me; for he wrote of me. But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe my words?”

The entire passage points to the fact that his audience cannot believe. In fact, like all humans, they refuse to come.

That is precisely why in John 6 and 10, Jesus lays out the truth that those the Father chose are given to him so that God would cause them to believe.

God's word is overwhelmingly consistent on this issue. God chooses to save, by His grace, through the faith God gives the elect to believe. Without that amazing grace, not one person would believe. We would all refuse to believe.

 

[utilyan]

It seems you are trying to use John 5:38 out of context and force your pretext upon it.

John 5:32-47

There is another who bears witness about me, and I know that the testimony that he bears about me is true. You sent to John, and he has borne witness to the truth. Not that the testimony that I receive is from man, but I say these things so that you may be saved. He was a burning and shining lamp, and you were willing to rejoice for a while in his light. But the testimony that I have is greater than that of John. For the works that the Father has given me to accomplish, the very works that I am doing, bear witness about me that the Father has sent me. And the Father who sent me has himself borne witness about me. His voice you have never heard, his form you have never seen, and you do not have his word abiding in you, for you do not believe the one whom he has sent. You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me, yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life. I do not receive glory from people. But I know that you do not have the love of God within you. I have come in my Father’s name, and you do not receive me. If another comes in his own name, you will receive him. How can you believe, when you receive glory from one another and do not seek the glory that comes from the only God? Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father. There is one who accuses you: Moses, on whom you have set your hope. For if you believed Moses, you would believe me; for he wrote of me. But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe my words?”

The entire passage points to the fact that his audience cannot believe. In fact, like all humans, they refuse to come.

That is precisely why in John 6 and 10, Jesus lays out the truth that those the Father chose are given to him so that God would cause them to believe.

God's word is overwhelmingly consistent on this issue. God chooses to save, by His grace, through the faith God gives the elect to believe. Without that amazing grace, not one person would believe. We would all refuse to believe.

John 6 Jesus Lays it out to 100% who reject and leave him hah!

John 6

32Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, it is not Moses who has given you the bread from heaven, but it is my Father who gives you the true bread from heaven. 33For the bread of God is the bread that comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.”

The Father in heaven give you (rejecting reprobates) true bread from heaven.

If we read the WHOLE CONTEXT.


He even tells them 36But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe.

Don't believe what? That God sent Jesus the TRUE BREAD of heaven to save them?

If they being a bunch of reprobates, Don't believe Jesus was sent to save them are they not telling the TRUTH and believing properly?

Look at all the times the Jews grumble and argue.

52Then the Jews began to argue sharply among themselves, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?”

Jesus then replied.....I never offered you my flesh to eat.
Nope didn't happen that way.

Calvinist Jesus would have simply stated. If God loves you then you are saved and if he hates you then you are damned. Real simple gospel, pagans have taught it for centuries.

 

[ad finitum]

It seems you are trying to use John 5:38 out of context and force your pretext upon it.

John 5:32-47

There is another who bears witness about me, and I know that the testimony that he bears about me is true. You sent to John, and he has borne witness to the truth. Not that the testimony that I receive is from man, but I say these things so that you may be saved. He was a burning and shining lamp, and you were willing to rejoice for a while in his light. But the testimony that I have is greater than that of John. For the works that the Father has given me to accomplish, the very works that I am doing, bear witness about me that the Father has sent me. And the Father who sent me has himself borne witness about me. His voice you have never heard, his form you have never seen, and you do not have his word abiding in you, for you do not believe the one whom he has sent. You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me, yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life. I do not receive glory from people. But I know that you do not have the love of God within you. I have come in my Father’s name, and you do not receive me. If another comes in his own name, you will receive him. How can you believe, when you receive glory from one another and do not seek the glory that comes from the only God? Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father. There is one who accuses you: Moses, on whom you have set your hope. For if you believed Moses, you would believe me; for he wrote of me. But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe my words?”

The entire passage points to the fact that his audience cannot believe. In fact, like all humans, they refuse to come.

That is precisely why in John 6 and 10, Jesus lays out the truth that those the Father chose are given to him so that God would cause them to believe.

God's word is overwhelmingly consistent on this issue. God chooses to save, by His grace, through the faith God gives the elect to believe. Without that amazing grace, not one person would believe. We would all refuse to believe.

This argument quotes verses that contradict its own conclusion. Look:

#1 Your argument says, "the faith God gives the elect to believe."
#2 Jesus says, "For if you believed Moses, you would believe me; for he wrote of me. But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe my words?”

 

[AustinC]

This argument quotes verses that contradict its own conclusion. Look:

#1 Your argument says, "the faith God gives the elect to believe."
#2 Jesus says, "For if you believed Moses, you would believe me; for he wrote of me. But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe my words?”

Look at what you share and ask this question: Did they believe Moses?
Answer: No
Ask yourself why?
Jesus tells you, but in order to believe what Jesus says, you will have to toss your philosophy out with the bath water.

 

[ad finitum]

Look at what you share and ask this question: Did they believe Moses?
Answer: No
Ask yourself why?

The answer to that is what the Bible is all about. Many believers, glad to be saved, balk at continuing in faith. Or they pursue faith and obedience for a time, but later fall back into their old ways. The chosen people of God, failed and died in the wilderness.

So, the Calvinist apologist should ask himself, Why would God complain about the faithlessness of His chosen people if in fact it was from God only that faith could be received? Why did He omit to gift His chosen people with faith, and then complain about their faithlessness?

Any answers? Hello?

People choose to believe, and to what extent their belief will go, or not to believe and to what extent not to believe. And God chooses not to interfere with man's choice of responses to His word. This very circumstance is by His design. People do not believe because they don't like the object that they enjoined to believe. "Yes, I believe this with all my heart, but it can't be that, also, surely." Or, "if it feels right, it can't be wrong. Maybe this interpretations is wrong, so I am free to not believe it." "I love the Cross, but these hard sayings must be a mistake, or they are just unreasonable."

At times, Jacob didn't believe God's promise. He preferred to swindle his brother for the birthright instead of trusting God to move his father, Isaac, to cross his hands, just as Jacob himself would later do with Ephraim and Manasseh. Jacob preferred to wrestle the angel for a blessing instead of believe the promise and receive it by faith and obedience like his grandfather Abraham. This syndrome is seen again among Jacob's own descendants when Jesus observes that they try to enter the Kingdom by force (wrest it -- wrestle for it in their own strength) instead of inheriting it by faith and obedience. God's own chosen people!

Those who followed Jesus, heard his teaching and were healed by Him, ate of the 5 loaves and 2 fishes and them promptly moved to force Jesus to be king, by their own hands -- even though they had faith to be healed by Jesus. They did not have the words of the Father within them, through Moses, so it seemed better to them to take the Kingdom by forcing Jesus onto a throne. They would not leave the timing of the Kingdom to God, nor would they listen to Jesus and obey his teaching. They all believed in the God of Abraham. But they did not all have the God of Abraham's words, through Moses, abiding in them.

The same is true of most Christians today. They believe Jesus is their savior by His death, burial and resurrection, but they don't have His words and the words of His chosen apostles abiding in them. Why? Because the pressures of the world, the flesh and the adversary put the faith and obedience of every believer to the test and God is demonstrating for all to see, who it is that continues asking, seeking, knocking, striving and enduring. Which believers will be diligent to keep his commandments and to what extent with they go? Some obey in some things but not in others. Some return 30 fold, some 100 fold, some only return what was invested with them. Who is responsible for believers falling short? Is God responsible because He chose to withhold gifts of faith? If people want to believe that, on their own heads be it.

How can one ask why people don't believe? The Bible is overflowing with the reasons. Why would somebody invent reasons that the Bible never mentions, i.e. God didn't give them faith? Who would write such fiction?

Worse than that, who would prefer to believe that fiction instead of the reasons the Bible gives?

Who would prefer to impose that fiction onto entire chapters of the Bible when it isn't even mentioned in those chapters? What is going on?

 

[Brightfame52]

2 Pet 1:1

Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

Peter in this scripture does inform us where precious Faith comes from ! Its certainly not of ourselves Eph 2:8.

It comes in or with the Righteousness of God and Our Saviour, this Righteousness is the free gift that Christ purchased and bestows upon all for whom He died Rom 5:17

For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ)

This Righteousness as well as that referred to in 2 Pet 1:1 is the imparted Righteousness of Christ we receive at New Birth. It is through this imparted or communicated Righteousness at New Birth we receive of, that with it we are given precious Faith.

Peter goes on to say 2 Pet 1:3-4

3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:

4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

Faith or precious Faith is of the many things Given to us by New Birth which gives us to live a life of godliness !

So 2 Pet 1:1 is but another scripture that proves biblically that Faith is the product of New Birth, partaking experimentally of the Divine Nature !

 

[ad finitum]

2 Pet 1:1

Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

Peter in this scripture does inform us where precious Faith comes from ! Its certainly not of ourselves Eph 2:8.

It comes in or with the Righteousness of God and Our Saviour, this Righteousness is the free gift that Christ purchased and bestows upon all for whom He died Rom 5:17

For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ)

This Righteousness as well as that referred to in 2 Pet 1:1 is the imparted Righteousness of Christ we receive at New Birth. It is through this imparted or communicated Righteousness at New Birth we receive of, that with it we are given precious Faith.

But the aorist active participle "obtain" applies to "them". There is no idea of passive receipt. That idea is being imposed by theology, i.e. eisegesis, which is classic interpretational error.

 

[AustinC]

The answer to that is what the Bible is all about. Many believers, glad to be saved, balk at continuing in faith. Or they pursue faith and obedience for a time, but later fall back into their old ways. The chosen people of God, failed and died in the wilderness.

So, the Calvinist apologist should ask himself, Why would God complain about the faithlessness of His chosen people if in fact it was from God only that faith could be received? Why did He omit to gift His chosen people with faith, and then complain about their faithlessness?

Any answers? Hello?

People choose to believe, and to what extent their belief will go, or not to believe and to what extent not to believe. And God chooses not to interfere with man's choice of responses to His word. This very circumstance is by His design. People do not believe because they don't like the object that they enjoined to believe. "Yes, I believe this with all my heart, but it can't be that, also, surely." Or, "if it feels right, it can't be wrong. Maybe this interpretations is wrong, so I am free to not believe it." "I love the Cross, but these hard sayings must be a mistake, or they are just unreasonable."

At times, Jacob didn't believe God's promise. He preferred to swindle his brother for the birthright instead of trusting God to move his father, Isaac, to cross his hands, just as Jacob himself would later do with Ephraim and Manasseh. Jacob preferred to wrestle the angel for a blessing instead of believe the promise and receive it by faith and obedience like his grandfather Abraham. This syndrome is seen again among Jacob's own descendants when Jesus observes that they try to enter the Kingdom by force (wrest it -- wrestle for it in their own strength) instead of inheriting it by faith and obedience. God's own chosen people!

Those who followed Jesus, heard his teaching and were healed by Him, ate of the 5 loaves and 2 fishes and them promptly moved to force Jesus to be king, by their own hands -- even though they had faith to be healed by Jesus. They did not have the words of the Father within them, through Moses, so it seemed better to them to take the Kingdom by forcing Jesus onto a throne. They would not leave the timing of the Kingdom to God, nor would they listen to Jesus and obey his teaching. They all believed in the God of Abraham. But they did not all have the God of Abraham's words, through Moses, abiding in them.

The same is true of most Christians today. They believe Jesus is their savior by His death, burial and resurrection, but they don't have His words and the words of His chosen apostles abiding in them. Why? Because the pressures of the world, the flesh and the adversary put the faith and obedience of every believer to the test and God is demonstrating for all to see, who it is that continues asking, seeking, knocking, striving and enduring. Which believers will be diligent to keep his commandments and to what extent with they go? Some obey in some things but not in others. Some return 30 fold, some 100 fold, some only return what was invested with them. Who is responsible for believers falling short? Is God responsible because He chose to withhold gifts of faith? If people want to believe that, on their own heads be it.

How can one ask why people don't believe? The Bible is overflowing with the reasons. Why would somebody invent reasons that the Bible never mentions, i.e. God didn't give them faith? Who would write such fiction?

Worse than that, who would prefer to believe that fiction instead of the reasons the Bible gives?

Who would prefer to impose that fiction onto entire chapters of the Bible when it isn't even mentioned in those chapters? What is going on?

ad finitum, it seems you cannot comprehend the difference between those saved by grace via the Abrahamic Covenant and the nation of Israel, kept under the law via the Sinai/Mosaic Covenant. Though all Israel was under the Mosaic Covenant, only a remnant were saved by grace under the Abrahamic Covenant.
Since you struggle to understand this distinction, you struggle to grasp how Israel failed as a chosen nation, but some were individually redeemed as person's. Those within the nation of Israel, whom God chose to redeem, persevered in faith to the end. To illustrate this point, the author of Hebrews gives us a whole section of those who were redeemed and persevered in faith before the cross. That same redemption by grace, which results in faith, continues after the cross and even to this day.

However, you are replacing grace with your "salvation by law" theology, which results in you having no clear understanding of what God is doing.

 

[utilyan]

you struggle to grasp how Israel failed as a chosen nation

Oh did God want them to do otherwise? Did Israel make a mistake?

 

[ad finitum]

ad finitum, it seems you cannot comprehend the difference between those saved by grace via the Abrahamic Covenant and the nation of Israel, kept under the law via the Sinai/Mosaic Covenant.

What I cannot comprehend is why God would complain about people not having faith when people cannot have faith unless God give it to them.

 

[Brightfame52]

But the aorist active participle "obtain" applies to "them". There is no idea of passive receipt. That idea is being imposed by theology, i.e. eisegesis, which is classic interpretational error.

Is that all you have to say ?

 

[ad finitum]

Is that all you have to say ?

One can only say what Peter said.

 

[AustinC]

What I cannot comprehend is why God would complain about people not having faith when people cannot have faith unless God give it to them.

Indeed, you cannot comprehend.

 

[Brightfame52]

One can only say what Peter said.

You could have saved your breath.

 

[ad finitum]

Indeed, you cannot comprehend.

Or is it that no one can answer the question? Most people here have shown an ability to compose multiple paragraphs of English in order to explain things that they believe and which they desire to share with others. Maybe someone here is able to do that to explain why God complains about people lacking faith.

 

[ad finitum]

You could have saved your breath.

Maybe people who imagine it's a bright idea to frame Peter's words to say something that he didn't say should have held theirs until they thought better of it.

 

[AustinC]

Or is it that no one can answer the question? Most people here have shown an ability to compose multiple paragraphs of English in order to explain things that they believe and which they desire to share with others. Maybe someone here is able to do that to explain why God complains about people lacking faith.

Your question is really an accusation against God. Take it up with God.