How were the Old Testament Saints saved?

[Van]

Before we venture too far into this discussion, lets assume the Old Testament Saints obtained "approval" through faith and upon physical death were taken to "Abraham's bosom." Since no one entered heaven before Christ came to earth (John 3:13) Abraham" bosom was some sort of "holding cell" for the saints God set aside for salvation.

So the question is, how do we understand Hebrews 11, especially 11:39-40. Did Christ empty out Abraham's bosom and take the saints to Paradise, the third heaven?

 

[revmwc]

Not to get too indept until I have time to go back look over some things. The Old Testament believer was saved by faith through Grace. Abrahams faith was counted unto him for righteousness we are told.

From the Lord's own lips we were told of Abaham's busom. The saviour they looked for came. Ephesians 4: 9"(Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

10He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)"

Paul said the Lord first descended. Peter also tells us He did.

1 Peter 3:
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

So when did He preach to the spirits in prison, when he descended during his time in the grave.

Christ took those souls in Paradise to heaven, when He had accomplished the work for their salvation.

Ephesians 3:14For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,

15Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,

16That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;

Talks of the whole family in heaven, not in paradise. So with His death He descended inot Paradise and took those souls to heaven. I have more on this I believe just need to get home and to it.

 

[Van]

I agree with almost all you wrote, RevMWC, except for the last line, and this is just a nitpick, not consequencial. Paradise and the third heaven are one and the same. So Paradise is heaven. Therefore, Jesus took those in Abraham's bosom, which is not heaven, to Paradise/heaven.

Other than that, you are spot on according to my understanding of scripture.

 

[TCassidy]

Abraham's Bosom being some sort of Protestant Purgatory is a myth. The Old Testament saints went to heaven as soon as they died.

 

[revmwc]

I agree with almost all you wrote, RevMWC, except for the last line, and this is just a nitpick, not consequencial. Paradise and the third heaven are one and the same. So Paradise is heaven. Therefore, Jesus took those in Abraham's bosom, which is not heaven, to Paradise/heaven.

Other than that, you are spot on according to my understanding of scripture.

Onw thing Paradise wasn't the same as heaven for Jesus there was a great gulf fixrd between torments and Paradise menaing that they were both at the time a part of the complete Hades abode. Jesus always refered to His father being in Heaven not paradise.

 

[revmwc]

Abraham's Bosom being some sort of Protestant Purgatory is a myth. The Old Testament saints went to heaven as soon as they died.

So then would you say Jesus falsely taught it?

Luke 16:
21And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.

22And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

23And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

 

[Van]

Hi TCassidy, Jesus said no one has assended to heaven in John 3:13?

But you are right, Abraham's bosom is not a protestant purgatory, it was a holding cell for saints to be saved once Christ became the propitiation for their tresspasses and sins.

 

[Van]

Hi RevMWC, check out 2 Corinthians 12:2-4? I understand from this passage that Paradise and the third heaven are the same.

 

[revmwc]

Hi RevMWC, check out 2 Corinthians 12:2-4? I understand from this passage that Paradise and the third heaven are the same.

One question then we can continue, was this before or after the Lord ascended?

 

[Van]

Paul is referring to a time after Christ ascended. Remember he watched the coats of those who stoned Steven, so the 14 years was afterward.

 

[mandym]

Hi TCassidy, Jesus said no one has assended to heaven in John 3:13?

You did not quote the entire verse which in this case takes it out of context.

John 3:13 No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man.

The context here is with Nicodemus and Jesus speaking of heavenly things[v.12] that Nicodemus does not understand. Nicodemus just got done asking "How can these things be?". He did not understand what Jesus was saying about salvation. Jesus was simply saying no one alive and walks the earth has been to heaven and therefore cannot speak of heavenly things with the authority that Jesus has since He alone came down from heaven.

There is no doctrine to be gleaned here with regards to Abraham's bosom.

 

[revmwc]

Paul is referring to a time after Christ ascended. Remember he watched the coats of those who stoned Steven, so the 14 years was afterward.

Since Christ took the souls from Paradise to heaven then all now Go to heaven. Until Christ paid for their sins they went to Paradiseand the theif went to paradise. Since that time to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord, Jesus didn't say that in the story of Lazerus and the rich man, He said they were in Abrahm's bosom and told the theif today thou shall be with me in paradise.

So the death on the cross made the difference for the Old Testament saints.

 

[revmwc]

You did not quote the entire verse which in this case takes it out of context.

John 3:13 No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man.

The context here is with Nicodemus and Jesus speaking of heavenly things[v.12] that Nicodemus does not understand. Nicodemus just got done asking "How can these things be?". He did not understand what Jesus was saying about salvation. Jesus was simply saying no one alive and walks the earth has been to heaven and therefore cannot speak of heavenly things with the authority that Jesus has since He alone came down from heaven.

There is no doctrine to be gleaned here with regards to Abraham's bosom.

Oh but there is it proves that the O.T. saint did not go to heaven but to Paradise, an abode in Hades. Then Paul says we now are absent from the body and present with the Lord so when the change and why, the change at Christ death and His fully pying for their sins on the cross. He was then able to take them to heaven to be with the Father as they had been promised.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Hi TCassidy, Jesus said no one has ascended to heaven in John 3:13?

You are misunderstanding John 3:13. In that verse, the Lord Jesus is preaching Himself to Nicodemus as the answer to Agur's riddle in Prov 30:4.

But you are right, Abraham's bosom is not a protestant purgatory, it was a holding cell for saints to be saved once Christ became the propitiation for their tresspasses and sins.

Abraham's bosom is a synonym for heaven. J.C.Ryle writes, "The expression is most probably a proverbial one. It signifies the place of rest and safety to which all believing Jews were carried after death. Abraham was the father of the faithful....and to be with him after death implied happiness. The expression, 'to sit down with Abraham Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of God' is somewhat like it (Matt 8:11)."

Steve

 

[TCassidy]

Onw thing Paradise wasn't the same as heaven for Jesus there was a great gulf fixrd between torments and Paradise menaing that they were both at the time a part of the complete Hades abode. Jesus always refered to His father being in Heaven not paradise.

Catholic myth out of the middle ages.

 

[TCassidy]

So then would you say Jesus falsely taught it?

He didn't. Abraham's bosom is in the same place as Abraham. Heaven. This idiotic idea that Heaven and Paradise are two different places has no scriptural support at all.

 

[TCassidy]

Hi TCassidy, Jesus said no one has assended to heaven in John 3:13?

He said that nobody has ascended to heaven to bring back the gospel. Context is your friend.

But you are right, Abraham's bosom is not a protestant purgatory, it was a holding cell for saints to be saved once Christ became the propitiation for their tresspasses and sins.

Once again you demonstrate a shallow knowledge of the bible. Revelation 13:8 "And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."

 

[TCassidy]

You are misunderstanding John 3:13. In that verse, the Lord Jesus is preaching Himself to Nicodemus as the answer to Agur's riddle in Prov 30:4.

Amen.

Abraham's bosom is a synonym for heaven. J.C.Ryle writes, "The expression is most probably a proverbial one. It signifies the place of rest and safety to which all believing Jews were carried after death. Abraham was the father of the faithful....and to be with him after death implied happiness. The expression, 'to sit down with Abraham Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of God' is somewhat like it (Matt 8:11)."

Steve

Not to mention that Enoch as did Elijah. As God is no respecter of persons, if those two were the only ones in heaven, they were very lonely and God IS a respecter of persons!

 

[mandym]

Oh but there is it proves that the O.T. saint did not go to heaven but to Paradise, an abode in Hades.

Again this is incorrect. It is not what Jesus said. You need to read that passage in its appropriate context more carefully.

 

[revmwc]

Again this is incorrect. It is not what Jesus said. You need to read that passage in its appropriate context more carefully.

Here we see hte reference to them going to Hades yet again.

Psalms 16:9 Therefore my heart is glad, and my glory rejoiceth: my flesh also shall rest in hope.

10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

11 Thou wilt shew me the path of life: in thy presence is fulness of joy; at thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore.

Verse 10 we see Paul also gives us.

Ephesians 4: 9"(Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

10He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)"

Christ ALSO rose from the grave and didn't see corruption.

1Peter 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

Christ again went to paradise and preached to those in torments.

Seem it shows this all through scripture. So when He brought the sould from Abraham's bosom, note this is not purgatory, purgatory was taught as a holding place for those who weren't quite up to standards for heaven. Abraham's bosom was the place that ALL old testament believers were sent there until Christ preached unto the spirits in prison as HE took the believers to heaven and closed it down.