How were the Old Testament Saints saved?

[Steadfast Fred]

Again here is what Jesus said,

Luke 16:

22And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

23And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

The rich man was in hell and yet could see into paradise. So are you saying hell is in heaven?

24And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

Where is the place of torments? In heaven or in hell and yet from there he saw Abraham and Lazarus.

25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

There was a gulf between them so that those in torments couldn't cross and yet the rich man was in hell, but Abraham and Lazarus were in the Paradise abode of Hades.
Jesus was quite clear in relaying this story.

I see no verse in that passage that says that Lazarus and Abraham were in Paradise.

The only places in the Word of God where the location of Paradise is given tell us that Paradise is in the third heaven, the abode of God. We are nowhere told Paradise is, or ever was, in Sheole.

 

[revmwc]

I see no verse in that passage that says that Lazarus and Abraham were in Paradise.

The only places in the Word of God where the location of Paradise is given tell us that Paradise is in the third heaven, the abode of God. We are nowhere told Paradise is, or ever was, in Sheole.

So what you are saying is that torments must be a part of heaven, unless the place Abraham and Lazerus were was in another abode of hades. Since Christ told the thief today thou will be with me in paradise then the abode of paradise would have been in hades. Since we are told he preached to the souls in captivity and that he descended before He ascended.

 

[Steadfast Fred]

--Jesus told the theif on the cross "Today you will be with Me in Paradise."

That day---Jesus went to the lower parts of the earth, not heaven (Eph. 4:9) And stayed there for three days.

What say you?

A day with the Lord is as a thousand years and a thousand years as a day.

I do not think Jesus was speaking of a physical day when He said, "To day, thou shalt be with me in Paradise."

 

[Amy.G]

I see no verse in that passage that says that Lazarus and Abraham were in Paradise.

The only places in the Word of God where the location of Paradise is given tell us that Paradise is in the third heaven, the abode of God. We are nowhere told Paradise is, or ever was, in Sheole.

Actually according to the Jews, hades had 2 places. One was the abode of the unrighteous dead in which there was torment. The other was the place of the righteous dead which was also called Abraham's bosom or paradise or eden. They were separated by a great chasm and the dead went to one or the other to await judgment.
The Jews that Jesus was speaking to would have understood exactly what He meant.


This is easily verified by a google search of Jewish traditions.

 

[Steadfast Fred]

Actually according to the Jews, hades had 2 places. One was the abode of the unrighteous dead in which there was torment. The other was the place of the righteous dead which was also called Abraham's bosom or paradise or eden. They were separated by a great chasm and the dead went to one or the other to await judgment.
The Jews that Jesus was speaking to would have understood exactly what He meant.


This is easily verified by a google search of Jewish traditions.

Jews may have taught that Paradise was in Sheole/Hades, I don't know.

But I do know one thing, the teaching that Paradise was at one time a compartment of Sheole/Hades is unscriptural.

There is not one instance in the Word of God where any section of Sheole/Hades is called Paradise.

So, do we believe man's teachings of Paradise being in Sheole/Hades? or do we believe the Word of God?

Do we trust google? or God's Word? I can search many things on google. I can pull up many pages that say it is ok to kill your neighbor. Should I dismiss the Word of God ans say, "Well, I googled it and it said it was ok, so I will"

 

[revmwc]

Jews may have taught that Paradise was in Sheole/Hades, I don't know.

But I do know one thing, the teaching that Paradise was at one time a compartment of Sheole/Hades is unscriptural.

There is not one instance in the Word of God where any section of Sheole/Hades is called Paradise.

So, do we believe man's teachings of Paradise being in Sheole/Hades? or do we believe the Word of God?

Do we trust google? or God's Word? I can search many things on google. I can pull up many pages that say it is ok to kill your neighbor. Should I dismiss the Word of God ans say, "Well, I googled it and it said it was ok, so I will"

Peter made it very clear where Christ went upon death. Verse 27 directly quotes David's prophect of messiah. He makes it very clear too that Christ will be on the earthly throne of David reigning as King.
This being preached as Peter had just been filled and indwelt by the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost.

Acts2:14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:

15For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.

16But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;

17And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

18And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:

19And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:

20The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come:

21And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

22Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

23Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

24Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.

25For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:

26Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:

27Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

28Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.

29Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.

30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;

31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.

 

[Amy.G]

So, do we believe man's teachings of Paradise being in Sheole/Hades? or do we believe the Word of God?

Do we trust google? or God's Word? I can search many things on google. I can pull up many pages that say it is ok to kill your neighbor. Should I dismiss the Word of God ans say, "Well, I googled it and it said it was ok, so I will"

I never suggested trusting in "man's teachings". I simply suggested a little study on Jewish history. You don't have to google anything. You can go to a library and read it from a book. But it is extremely helpful to understand the Jewish life of the OT. We can understand much more about the NT by doing so.

 

[Allan]

I never suggested trusting in "man's teachings". I simply suggested a little study on Jewish history. You don't have to google anything. You can go to a library and read it from a book. But it is extremely helpful to understand the Jewish life of the OT. We can understand much more about the NT by doing so.

He doesn't even need to google it, he can just go back and read my post (#70) in this thread that established the biblical veracity of the doctrine that is not only held today but was also a dominant view held even in the early church.

 

[Steadfast Fred]

He doesn't even need to google it, he can just go back and read my post (#70) in this thread that established the biblical veracity of the doctrine that is not only held today but was also a dominant view held even in the early church.

I don't see anything in #70 that says Paradise was in Sheole/Hades. But more importainly, I see no evidence of such a claim in the Word of God either.

 

[Allan]

I don't see anything in #70 that says Paradise was in Sheole/Hades. But more importainly, I see no evidence of such a claim in the Word of God either.

You have to go back to the language (and understanding of how THEY understood it) and not how you view it.

If you don't want to accept it, that is your affair.. however it is what it was. It is no coincidence that both Hades and Sheol were understood to be a dual compartment of/in the spirit world holding the deceased, and that God used both words to describe the same place, with a word having the same meaning from 2 separate languages and cultures.

No one could go to God's abode till the Christ 'removed' their sins. According to Hebrews (and other places) the blood of animals merely covered or cloaked our sin but the sin STILL remained. Only the blood of the Lamb of God can REMOVE sin. Does God allow sin stained people to live in His presence without judging them? Can His Holy nature endue such? No it can not. What place does sin stained man have in the presence of a Holy God. For though there is a pearly white garment over the outside, the inside still remains tarnished and stained within.

 

[convicted1]

1 Pet. 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.


Take a close look at what I highlighted. It was the Holy Spirit that preached unto the spirits that were in prison while the ark was being built. There was no need for Jesus to preach to those who died in their sins. They were found guilty immediately upon death, because of unbelief of what was being told to them by Noah(preaching through the Spirit to the lost during his time of the ark). The Spirit was preaching through Noah as a witness against their unbelief.

Now, if y'all want to hold to this doctrine that Jesus went to hell and preached, then y'all need to buy some rosary beeds, and pray to Jesus through Mary, because this reeks of Catholicism.

i am I AM's!!

Willis

 

[TCassidy]

1 Pet. 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.


Take a close look at what I highlighted. It was the Holy Spirit that preached unto the spirits that were in prison while the ark was being built. There was no need for Jesus to preach to those who died in their sins. They were found guilty immediately upon death, because of unbelief of what was being told to them by Noah(preaching through the Spirit to the lost during his time of the ark). The Spirit was preaching through Noah as a witness against their unbelief.

Now, if y'all want to hold to this doctrine that Jesus went to hell and preached, then y'all need to buy some rosary beeds, and pray to Jesus through Mary, because this reeks of Catholicism.

i am I AM's!!

Willis

You may be "an uneducated, backwater, experience based preacher" but at least you can read and understand what the bible says, which is a whole lot more than I can say about the "2 compartment" catholics in this thread!

 

[Allan]

You may be "an uneducated, backwater, experience based preacher" but at least you can read and understand what the bible says, which is a whole lot more than I can say about the "2 compartment" catholics in this thread!

You mean the same teaching the early church held to, Prior to there ever being a Roman Catholic church?

 

[Allan]

Now, if y'all want to hold to this doctrine that Jesus went to hell and preached, then y'all need to buy some rosary beeds, and pray to Jesus through Mary, because this reeks of Catholicism.

i am I AM's!!

Willis

I never quoted the passage you are speaking to, however if you wish to ignore the biblical concept that existed PRIOR to the Roman Catholic Church. That is your affair.. however I would suggest you study more on your church history.

 

[Allan]

And again I state as previously:

You have to go back to the language (and understanding of how THEY understood it) and not how you view it.

If you don't want to accept it, that is your affair.. however it is what it was. It is no coincidence that both Hades and Sheol were understood to be a dual compartment of/in the spirit world holding the deceased, and that God used both words to describe the same place, with a word having the same meaning from 2 separate languages and cultures.

No one could go to God's abode till the Christ 'removed' their sins. According to Hebrews (and [the concept found in] other places) the blood of animals merely covered or cloaked our sin but the sin STILL remained. Only the blood of the Lamb of God can REMOVE sin. Does God allow sin stained people to live in His presence without judging them? Can His Holy nature endue such? No it can not. What place does sin stained man have in the presence of a Holy God. For though there is a pearly white garment over the outside, the inside still remains tarnished and stained within.

 

[convicted1]

http://www.apologeticspress.org/APContent.aspx?category=10&article=851

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Basics/did_jesus_go_to_hell.htm
(The author of this website states he isn't "dogmatic" one way or the other, but he seems to lean closer to Jesus NOT going to hell and preaching.)

http://www.answers2prayer.org/bible_questions/Answers/hell/jesus.html

Here are three interesting articles that should shed some light on this topic.

 

[convicted1]

Bro. Allan stated: And again I state as previously

You have to go back to the language (and understanding of how THEY understood it) and not how you view it.

If you don't want to accept it, that is your affair.. however it is what it was. It is no coincidence that both Hades and Sheol were understood to be a dual compartment of/in the spirit world holding the deceased, and that God used both words to describe the same place, with a word having the same meaning from 2 separate languages and cultures.

No one could go to God's abode till the Christ 'removed' their sins. According to Hebrews (and [the concept found in] other places) the blood of animals merely covered or cloaked our sin but the sin STILL remained. Only the blood of the Lamb of God can REMOVE sin. Does God allow sin stained people to live in His presence without judging them? Can His Holy nature endue such? No it can not. What place does sin stained man have in the presence of a Holy God. For though there is a pearly white garment over the outside, the inside still remains tarnished and stained within.

Again, dear Brother, you are espousing Catholic doctrine that when someone died in OT times, they were placed in a "spiritual limbo", and then when the time came, Jesus would go and preach to them, and those who believed, would go to heaven, and those who didn't, who remain. It this is the case, then NNE would have remained in hell at that time, because ALL of them would have believed, and went to heaven. Again, you need to dig out your rosary beeds, and pray to Jesus through Mary.....this is Catholic doctrine, Bro. Allan.

i am I AM's

Willis

 

[Allan]

http://www.apologeticspress.org/APContent.aspx?category=10&article=851

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Basics/did_jesus_go_to_hell.htm
(The author of this website states he isn't "dogmatic" one way or the other, but he seems to lean closer to Jesus NOT going to hell and preaching.)

http://www.answers2prayer.org/bible_questions/Answers/hell/jesus.html

Here are three interesting articles that should shed some light on this topic.

Your first two articles basically address the Peter passage, but do not actually contend much with the aspects which address why there was a dual compartment. That being the sin issue and that those who died believing in the symbolic offering that pictured Christ was deemed righteous but still had the stain of sin... Again, Hebrews states the shed blood of animals did not and could not 'remove' sin. Yet we also know that only by the shedding of blood can there be the remission or removing of sin.

Hbr 10:3 But in those [sacrifices there is] a remembrance again [made] of sins every year.
Hbr 10:4 For [it is] not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

Hbr 10:11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:

 

[Allan]

Again, dear Brother, you are espousing Catholic doctrine that when someone died in OT times, they were placed in a "spiritual limbo", and then when the time came, Jesus would go and preach to them, and those who believed, would go to heaven, and those who didn't, who remain.

You really don't know what your talking about brother. This doctrine precedes the RCC as was the teaching of the early church - prior to even the inception of the RCC.

Secondly, they didn't go there waiting for Jesus to come preach to them - that whoever believed (then) would be saved. That is silly and not even part of the doctrine. Please, learn what the doctrine teaches.

Jesus went there victoriously, declaring who He was and setting those who ALREADY believed, free. Not from imprisonment but to come home.

Did you not know that Hell IS a waiting place for the judgment? People are in Hell awaiting their final judgment. It is a place of waiting. The saints of old were also awaiting the final verdict of judgment. And once Jesus came, the verdict was in and they were loosed into the arms of their Father.

Did you ever notice Jesus statement at the tomb.. do not touch me as I have NOT YET ascended to my Father. While granted the 'touch me not' refers to her 'holding on and not letting him go' showing she can not cling to Him to remain... is established in the very fact that He states He 'has not yet ascended to the Father"... Did he lie? The phrase "Not Yet" implies He was not there but is going soon.

It this is the case, then NNE would have remained in hell at that time, because ALL of them would have believed, and went to heaven. Again, you need to dig out your rosary beeds, and pray to Jesus through Mary.....this is Catholic doctrine, Bro. Allan.

i am I AM's

Willis

Seriously, your understanding is completely erroneous on what the doctrine teaches. You need to study your church history more since it was not the RCC who came up with the doctrine, they distorted the doctrine that already was the prevailing view LONG before they came into being. READ you church history.