How were the Old Testament Saints saved?

[mandym]

Hi Mandy

Nicodemus asked “How can these things (vs. 3-8) be?” The context is about being born again. What Jesus said in vs. thirteen is that unless a person is born again, he cannot see/enter heaven. Thus, nobody was yet born again at that point.

I have no idea how you got to this conclusion but it is false. Jesus was addressing the false belief that Jews were right with God because of their relationship with Abraham.

The Church was not birthed until Pentecost. Until that time, nobody was part of the Body of Christ, thus nobody was yet born again. Without that spiritual union with Jesus, post death, resurrection and ascention, one cannot be born again, nor was His sin atoned for.

I doubt you can back that up with scripture.

They were kept in paradise, which was part of Hades before Jesus' ascention to the third heaven.

Scripture please

Born again...Romans 6:3-11;

Talking about Baptism not salvation

Col. 2:10-4; 1 Peter 3:21; Galatians 3:2,26-29; -- "raised us up together"

Col 2:13 "God made alive together with him" (ESV)

1 Peter 3:21 "Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, (ESV)

Ephesians 2:1-10 -- "through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead" 1 Peter 1:3-5 etc...[/QUOTE]

Gal 3:26 for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith.
Gal 3:27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise. (ESV)

Nothing here about "Abraham's bosom" nor is there anything here about all Christians going to heaven at the same time.

 

[mandym]

When Jesus died, His Spirit went back to God, and His natural body was laid in the tomb. The Spirit went up(ascended up to heaven), and His body was laid in the tomb(descended to the lower parts of the earth).....this is what the Word says. After three days and nights, His Spirit entered back into His body, and He arose from the tomb alive, and alive forevermore!!!

The theif's soul/spirit went to paradise with Jesus' Spirit.

i am I AM's!!

Willis

I thought this was common knowledge. I had no idea Baptists anywhere held to the Catholic teaching being espoused in this thread. I am quite shocked.

 

[Tater77]

Paradise is equal to Heaven in Jewish thought and word use of the day and is still so. Another word for Heaven would be "gan-Eden" referring to the Garden of Eden or a form of "paradise".

Remember our Lord was born a Jew, preached to Jews and was sent to death at the Romans hands by Jews and died beside 2 Jews hanging with Him while being watched by a crowd of Jews.

So its important to know Jewish word use.

 

[Van]

Reply to Allinall,

Hi Mandy

Nicodemus asked “How can these things (vs. 3-8) be?” The context is about being born again. What Jesus said in vs. thirteen is that unless a person is born again, he cannot see/enter heaven. Thus, nobody was yet born again at that point. If they had been, they would have seen the kingdom of God (vs. 3b), or another way of saying it is that they would have entered the kingdom of God (vs. 5b).

The Church was not birthed until Pentecost. Until that time, nobody was part of the Body of Christ, thus nobody was yet born again. Without that spiritual union with Jesus, post death, resurrection and ascention, one cannot be born again, nor was His sin atoned for.

God seperated Adam and Eve from Himself because of one sin. Think of the implications of that. How can anyone who has sinned (specifically OT saints)be in God's presence without their sin being atoned? They can't, if they could, Adam and Eve would have never had to leave in the first place. That's why they had to be kept away from God (who passed over their sin-Romans 3:21-26) until their sin was atoned. They were kept in paradise, which was part of Hades before Jesus' ascention to the third heaven.

Born again...Romans 6:3-11; Col. 2:10-4; 1 Peter 3:21; Galatians 3:2,26-29; -- "raised us up together" Ephesians 2:1-10 -- "through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead" 1 Peter 1:3-5 etc...

Point one, your view that no one had yet been born again and therefore had not entered and seen the inside of the Kingdom of God is quite correct, in my opinion.

I agree, the Church was not birthed until Pentecost, but that refers to entering the body of Christ, conversion, being born again, while physically alive, but spiritually dead. This truth does not conflict with Jesus taking people who had died beforehand and had obtained approval through faith, to Paradise, such as the thief on the cross, and those confined to Abraham's bosom on the day He died on the cross.

Point 3, no one could be in the presence of God, because our iniquity has created a separation between God and man, prior to God reconciling mankind through Christ Jesus. Only when a person "receives" the reconciliation provided by the finished work of the cross, are they "reconciled" and therefore at one with God, i.e. made alive together with Christ. So again, you are quite correct, in my opinion.

Point 4, Scriptural support for the concept of being spiritually born again, raised from the dead spiritually, when we are made alive together with Christ is abundant in scripture. You are quite right again, in my opinion!

 

[Van]

13 And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, (Col. 2:13 ESV).

Is Romans 6:3-11 taking about spiritual baptism (resulting in salvation) or water baptism (resulting in getting wet)? We have been spiritually baptized into Christ Jesus, and most Baptists have been water baptized by immersion.

But in verse 4 we see that the "baptism" allows us to walk in the newness of life. So water baptism cannot be in view, unless one holds to a works based religion, because being water baptized is a work. In verse five, we have been united with Christ, again speaking of our spiritual baptism into Christ, rather than a symbolic water baptism.

When we are spiritually baptized into Christ, we undergo the circumcision of Christ where our body of flesh (sin) is removed (justification) and we arise in Christ a new creation (regeneration). We are sealed in Christ with the Holy Spirit forever, as a pledge to our bodily resurrection at Christ's second coming. John the Baptist baptized with water, but Jesus with spirit!

 

[TCassidy]

I had no idea Baptists anywhere held to the Catholic teaching being espoused in this thread. I am quite shocked.

All this nonsense is the inevitable result of so many baptists not requiring decent education before ordaining a man to the ministry. I am appalled at how many so-called "pastors" in baptist churches can't read Greek, let alone Hebrew. This may be the reason so many are "KJVOnly." They are incompetent in the languages of the inspired scripture so have to rely on the notes in the Scofield Bible for their "education." That's where most of this "two compartments of sheol" comes from.

 

[happyheritic]

Abraham's Bosom being some sort of Protestant Purgatory is a myth. The Old Testament saints went to heaven as soon as they died.

Issue...? What verse do you have to support Old Testament Saint's went to heaven when they died?

 

[happyheritic]

All this nonsense is the inevitable result of so many baptists not requiring decent education before ordaining a man to the ministry. I am appalled at how many so-called "pastors" in baptist churches can't read Greek, let alone Hebrew. This may be the reason so many are "KJVOnly." They are incompetent in the languages of the inspired scripture so have to rely on the notes in the Scofield Bible for their "education." That's where most of this "two compartments of sheol" comes from.

What Hebrew or Greek text would you give to support your argument?

 

[TCassidy]

Issue...? What verse do you have to support Old Testament Saint's went to heaven when they died?

Scroll back. I already posted it.

 

[TCassidy]

What Hebrew or Greek text would you give to support your argument?

This one: רֶ֤כֶב אֱלֹהִ֗ים רִבֹּתַ֣יִם אַלְפֵ֣י שִׁנְאָ֑ן אֲדֹנָ֥י בָ֝֗ם סִינַ֥י בַּקֹּֽדֶשׁ׃

 

[HankD]

What Hebrew or Greek text would you give to support your argument?

2 Kings 2:1 And it came to pass, when the LORD would take up Elijah into heaven by a whirlwind, that Elijah went with Elisha from Gilgal.
...
2 Kings 2:11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

HankD​

 

[TCassidy]

2 Kings 2:1 And it came to pass, when the LORD would take up Elijah into heaven by a whirlwind, that Elijah went with Elisha from Gilgal.
...
2 Kings 2:11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

HankD​

Don't bother, Hank. They ignore the actual bible in favor of the Scofield notes. I posted several posts ago about Enoch and Elijah being taken directly to heaven and they just ignored the very verses that prove their silly theory to be false.

 

[revmwc]

I thought this was common knowledge. I had no idea Baptists anywhere held to the Catholic teaching being espoused in this thread. I am quite shocked.

Ephesians 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

Mandym, Are you saying this does not say Christ first descened into lower parts of the earth, thus speaking of hades. If this is catholic doctrine how is that Paul said it? Second when did this occur if not during the three days in the tomb then when?

2nd Corinthians 5: 8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.


If indeed Paradise was a part of the entire Hades abode then it would have been in the lower parts of the earth and Paul now tells us that to absent from the body is to present with the Lord, so there was a change, when did it occur?

 

[revmwc]

When Jesus died, His Spirit went back to God, and His natural body was laid in the tomb. The Spirit went up(ascended up to heaven), and His body was laid in the tomb(descended to the lower parts of the earth).....this is what the Word says. After three days and nights, His Spirit entered back into His body, and He arose from the tomb alive, and alive forevermore!!!

The theif's soul/spirit went to paradise with Jesus' Spirit.

i am I AM's!!

Willis

Ephesians 4:
8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

This is fairly clear Jesus descended into the lower parts of the earth, that would be when He went to Paradise, and at once He presented the blood of the sacrifice to the father He brought those souls to heaven and Paul could then say, 2 Corinthians 5: 8 "We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord." So the change accord once Christ had died and presented the blood of His sacrifice.

 

[revmwc]

All this nonsense is the inevitable result of so many baptists not requiring decent education before ordaining a man to the ministry. I am appalled at how many so-called "pastors" in baptist churches can't read Greek, let alone Hebrew. This may be the reason so many are "KJVOnly." They are incompetent in the languages of the inspired scripture so have to rely on the notes in the Scofield Bible for their "education." That's where most of this "two compartments of sheol" comes from.

There are many who hold this view not just Schoffield and there are not two comparments there were at Jesus time 3 compartments. The third being tartarus or the bottomless pit.

 

[mandym]

Ephesians 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

Mandym, Are you saying this does not say Christ first descened into lower parts of the earth, thus speaking of hades. If this is catholic doctrine how is that Paul said it? Second when did this occur if not during the three days in the tomb then when?

2nd Corinthians 5: 8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.


If indeed Paradise was a part of the entire Hades abode then it would have been in the lower parts of the earth and Paul now tells us that to absent from the body is to present with the Lord, so there was a change, when did it occur?

This was explained already the body was in the grave (lower parts of the earth) and like everyone else His Spirit went to paradise (heaven). There are a number of assumptions made by those who hold to your doctrine with no clear evidence.

 

[revmwc]

Don't bother, Hank. They ignore the actual bible in favor of the Scofield notes. I posted several posts ago about Enoch and Elijah being taken directly to heaven and they just ignored the very verses that prove their silly theory to be false.

Enoch what does it say?

Genesis 5: 23 And all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years:

24 And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.

So where did he take him where does it asy He was taken to heaven?

Hebrews 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

2 Kings 2:11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

12 And Elisha saw it, and he cried, My father, my father, the chariot of Israel, and the horsemen thereof. And he saw him no more: and he took hold of his own clothes, and rent them in two pieces.

Which heaven? shamayim meaning sky and heaven. shachaq also meaning sky or heaven.

Genesis 1:7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.

8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.

9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.

Thus the first heaven was created the one with the atmosphere in which we breathe from? It appears the same Hebrew word is used here as in 2 Kings.

Genesis 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
Then the plural heavens.

So Elijah was taken up into the first heaven. 2nd Chronicles 21:12 And there came a writing to him from Elijah the prophet, saying, Thus saith the LORD God of David thy father, Because thou hast not walked in the ways of Jehoshaphat thy father, nor in the ways of Asa king of Judah,

13But hast walked in the way of the kings of Israel, and hast made Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem to go a whoring, like to the whoredoms of the house of Ahab, and also hast slain thy brethren of thy father's house, which were better than thyself:

14Behold, with a great plague will the LORD smite thy people, and thy children, and thy wives, and all thy goods:

15And thou shalt have great sickness by disease of thy bowels, until thy bowels fall out by reason of the sickness day by day.

This letter is received 10 years after Elijah was taken up into the sky, and speaks of events that occured after he was taken, so where was Elijah at this time? Two years later the King died exactly how Elijah said he would, so where was Elijah when the letter was written?

 

[convicted1]

Ephesians 4:
8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

This is fairly clear Jesus descended into the lower parts of the earth, that would be when He went to Paradise, and at once He presented the blood of the sacrifice to the father He brought those souls to heaven and Paul could then say, 2 Corinthians 5: 8 "We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord." So the change accord once Christ had died and presented the blood of His sacrifice.

This baloney of Jesus going down to hades and preaching to those who died is just that, BUH-LO-NEY!!! This is nothing more than a "glorified purgatory", that is very similiar to what the RCC holds to. Are you catholic??

Eph. 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

Look closely @ verse 9. It states that He descended first into the lower parts of the earth, before He ascended. This has to be talking about His natural body. His body was laid in the tomb(descended to the lower parts of the earth), and after His Spirit reentered it, He came out of the tomb, victorious of death, hell, and the grave.

Here is anothe little passage that gets abused in this theology:

1 Pet. 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

People take this to say that Jesus went and preached to them which were in prison, but in reality, it was the Holy Spirit. Some will try to say that Jesus "went back and preached to them that were in prison", but this passage never said "Jesus went back". The "spirits in prison" were the OT people whose spirit was in the sin-cursed flesh. So if Jesus went to hell to preach to the lost who were already condemned, then this is nothing more than purgatory, plain and simple!!

i am I AM's!!

Willis

 

[HankD]

... so where was Elijah at this time? Two years later the King died exactly how Elijah said he would, so where was Elijah when the letter was written?

The Hebrew says Shamayim which granted could mean the atmosphere as well as the dwelling place of God but wouldn't this mean that Elijah is still racing around in the sky somewhere?

If not heaven as indicated then where did he go?

HankD

 

[allinall]

When Jesus died, His Spirit went back to God, and His natural body was laid in the tomb. The Spirit went up(ascended up to heaven), and His body was laid in the tomb(descended to the lower parts of the earth).....this is what the Word says. After three days and nights, His Spirit entered back into His body, and He arose from the tomb alive, and alive forevermore!!!

The theif's soul/spirit went to paradise with Jesus' Spirit.

i am I AM's!!

Willis

Hi Willis

Consider a few more passages.

1 Peter 3:18-19 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison,

Matthew 12:39-40 But He answered and said to them, “An evil and adulterous generation seeks after a sign, and no sign will be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.