How were they saved?

[Marcia]

Helen, I think both of these are good in responding to some of the GIS teachings.

This is by former astrologer Charles Strohmer:
http://www.equip.org/free/DG240.htm

This is responding to certain points asserted by Seiss and Bullinger, GIS proponents:
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/stone-catend/gpinstar.htm

I think the best refutation is that there is no biblical support for GIS and proponents of GIS have failed to show any solid support for it. The GIS proponents taught that it was given to Adam but there is absolutely no evidence for this.

The burden is on the GIS proponents to show clear biblical teaching for such a theory.

 

[Gina B]

Just so I have it clear...
was that your referenced and detailed response to the situation?

BTW I received your pm concerning my response to your first post on here the other day. I didn't respond because it only said you didn't agree, and I had already gathered that from what was already posted on the thread.

My second response was to your second response. I'm not sure why you thought it was to your first one? You said something, I answered, you said something else, I answered...

Anyhow, I think it seems pretty obvious that you're not willing at this moment to consider anything outside of what you are already set on believing concerning this issue, so I'll let it be, but if I was wrong and this wasn't your referenced and detailed response, I do look forward to reading it!

And...I'm sorry it's this way. I'm sorry that the words of a man who puts R.C. Sproul and Sun Myung Moon in the same category is being accepted as a valid source of wisdom. I'm sorry it isn't being accepted that someone with more experience on the topic is right here trying to show, biblically, what she is talking about and there are no questions at all, simply vague overall refutations of all of it, based on sources that aren't credible.

I was GOING to say wish you a star-tlingly great Thanksgiving, but I'll just say Happy Holidays.

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by HankD:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Why is it strange? Its simple- name one person who was saved outside of God's specific revelation.

John the Baptist.

Luke 1:15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.

HankD </font>[/QUOTE]Mal 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:

Mt 17:10 And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias (Elijah) must first come?

Mt 17:12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not,

Mt 17:13 Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.

Mt 11:14 And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, (Elijah) which was for to come.

Mt 17:2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun,

3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.

Zec 4:14 Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.

Re 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

 

[4His_glory]

Originally posted by HankD:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Why is it strange? Its simple- name one person who was saved outside of God's specific revelation.

John the Baptist.

Luke 1:15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.

HankD </font>[/QUOTE]Well again, I don't so how this works. John the Baptist was an OT Saint as was most definently determined by God for His role. Again this was God's direct intervention.

Me4Him- your post added nothing of value to the conversation. What were you trying to say?

 

[Hardsheller]

Originally posted by Mark Osgatharp:
The Old Testament saints were saved by trusting that a Savior would come. We are saved by trusting that the Savior came in the person of Jesus Christ.

We know more about Christ than the Old Testament saints (see I Peter chapter 1) but they did know that Christ would come and they were saved by believing that promise.

Those who have not heard of Christ cannot be saved without first hearing about Him, but they can, from the witness of creation, see the glory of God and if they seek Him He will get the gospel to them and give them an opportunity to be saved.

Whether or not any man is saved depends on His on acceptance or rejection of Christ. As Jesus Himself said,

"If any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not; for I came not to judge the world but to save the world. He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, teh same shall judge him in the last day."

Mark Osgatharp

The Comment above in Bold is the most unbelievable statement I have ever read from a Non-Calvinist.

The "seeking" (read action)of lost men who have seen God's Glory in Creation forces God to send the means of their salvation in the form, I assume, of missionaries or preachers, who will preach a Gospel to them that they can then either accept or reject.

Absolutely Amazing.

 

[Hardsheller]

Helen,

I appreciate the time and effort you have spent in attempting to answer my original question.

Of Course I am still not swayed by your reasoning.

Take Abraham for example. He is always pointed to as being the prime example of a man who is saved by his faith. His Father was the one who started the tribe in the direction of Canaan and who settled in Haran. After Terah's death, God spoke to Abraham.

By Special Revelation He informed Abraham of His Plan to Use him (Abraham) as the father of an elect nation (Israel).

Was Abraham elect or not? Of course he was.
Did Abraham have faith or not? Of course he did.
Did Abraham choose to sin after he had faith? Yes

Now the key question is - Was Abraham predestined to be the Father of Israel or did God give him a choice and have a Plan B ready? I don't see any choice in the OT account of Abraham except God's choice followed by Abraham's faith and obedience to God's election.

 

[webdog]

Now the key question is - Was Abraham predestined to be the Father of Israel or did God give him a choice and have a Plan B ready?

Abraham was predestined based on foreknowledge (knowing beforehand), that our finite minds cannot grasp. In Star Wars III I know that Anakin becomes Darth Vader because I have seen it. Watching it again will not change the outcome, no "plan b". If Abraham was predestined before he was born, he would have had to exist somewhere else, somehow.

 

[Helen]

I see. We are all robots, incapable of real love or obedience as it is all programmed into us.

That makes the Bible and revelation itself absolutely unnecessary, doesn't it?

 

[rlvaughn]

How are people who have never heard of Christ saved? If the gospel is there in the stars for all to read, then they have in fact heard of Christ.

Ya killed the "shock-n-aw" value of my next post by asking what I was wondering.

Helen, I would like to bring this question (which it appears Gina and I both have) back to the forefront.

As I said in previous posts, it appears to me that your scenarios of the gospel in the stars and others do not really address what you originally set out to address - How are people who have never heard of Christ saved?. Perhaps we could illustrate it thusly, for the time being assuming the "gospel in the stars" is true. Old Jack Puffines has lived his entire life in the far off land of Honalee. There are no Christians, no preachers, and no Bibles. The "gospel in the stars" has long since been forgotten in the land of Honalee. Jack has never heard of Christ, not even the zodiac story. How are people who have never heard of Christ saved?

Also, in re-reading your original post, I noticed this: "They all have always known, at least in part. At least enough for salvation." This seems to contradict what you later wrote on page three: "...if a person responds to the truth and wants it that God the Father will lead him or her to Jesus who IS the Truth." It seems you did not disagree when I wrote that I thought by this you meant that "you believe that if a person responds to the truth they have, God will get the Gospel to them." Now do they know enough to have saving faith, or just enough that if they believe that, God will then get the gospel to them? Please explain. Thanks.

 

[Hardsheller]

Originally posted by Helen:
I see. We are all robots, incapable of real love or obedience as it is all programmed into us.

That makes the Bible and revelation itself absolutely unnecessary, doesn't it?

Helen, I read your explanations and I told you I appreciated your attempt to answer my question. You did not to my satisfaction do that.

And No Helen, we are not robots. We are capable of real love and obedience as exemplified by the life of Abraham. We are also capable of sin as also revealed in Abraham's life. Where do you get the idea that predestination and election precludes a real choice on the part of man?

Would you call David a robot? The Bible says God chose him to be the King of Israel and he became king. Not because of any foreknowledge that David if he would accept the job would be good at it but because God so willed it.

The idea that a Sovereign God cannot rule his creation with mercy and grace without making his subjects robots is foreign to the scriptures.

 

[Helen]

Why are you insisting the Gospel in the Stars has been forgotten? You are presenting a scenario which is made-up.

Here is what I have learned reading missionary stories:

1. In China the story is in the ancient figures and thus available to them to teach their children.

2. Even in isolated areas traditional religions contain enough memory of the Promise of God and creation itself for faith.

It has become evident that God never left Himself without a witness of some kind and in some way to every man who ever lived. What a man does with that witness determines what God does with him.

My two statements did not disagree with each other. You know enough for salvation when you follow the truth to Christ. God leads you when your response to the truth is that you want more of it. Ask and you shall receive. If you want the truth, you will end up with Christ. That is what God does.

HOW He does it in each case it His business. The missionaries have come back with too many stories from all over the world, however, regarding the fact that God has been doing it.

You are, in effect, asking how much faith is saving faith. Every tree starts out as a seed. When does it become a tree? Was it always a tree?

 

[Hardsheller]

Originally posted by webdog:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Now the key question is - Was Abraham predestined to be the Father of Israel or did God give him a choice and have a Plan B ready?

Abraham was predestined based on foreknowledge (knowing beforehand), that our finite minds cannot grasp. In Star Wars III I know that Anakin becomes Darth Vader because I have seen it. Watching it again will not change the outcome, no "plan b". If Abraham was predestined before he was born, he would have had to exist somewhere else, somehow. </font>[/QUOTE]Foreknowledge of what? And why Abraham? Why not Lot?

 

[Helen]

Originally posted by Hardsheller:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Helen:
I see. We are all robots, incapable of real love or obedience as it is all programmed into us.

That makes the Bible and revelation itself absolutely unnecessary, doesn't it?

Helen, I read your explanations and I told you I appreciated your attempt to answer my question. You did not to my satisfaction do that.

And No Helen, we are not robots. We are capable of real love and obedience as exemplified by the life of Abraham. We are also capable of sin as also revealed in Abraham's life. Where do you get the idea that predestination and election precludes a real choice on the part of man?

Would you call David a robot? The Bible says God chose him to be the King of Israel and he became king. Not because of any foreknowledge that David if he would accept the job would be good at it but because God so willed it.

The idea that a Sovereign God cannot rule his creation with mercy and grace without making his subjects robots is foreign to the scriptures. </font>[/QUOTE]Hardsheller, a 'real' choice means a man is capable of going one way or the other. The main premis of Calvinism is that although the 'choice' is there, an unregenerate man will always choose evil. That is no choice. As I wrote in a previous post, if you have read this thread, that sort of 'choice' is like offering a horse a steak dinner or hay. That is no choice where the horse is concerned! A 'real choice' means you have both the opportunity and the ability to go one way or the other.

Calvinism denies this by playing with the word 'choice.'

Love demands choice. Love means nothing if you do not have the option NOT to love. Obedience means nothing if you do not have the option NOT to obey.

You wrote: The idea that a Sovereign God cannot rule his creation with mercy and grace without making his subjects robots is foreign to the scriptures.

I totally agree. And that is why I am against Calvinism! We have been given real choices regarding God and, thus, our eternal destiny. To deny that is to deny the fact that God does indeed love all men and does not wish one to perish. To deny that is to deny all the verses that urge folk NOT to harden their hearts, to seek God, to have faith. These passages are not in vain to simply provide window dressing or some kind of 'legal' support so that the majority of men can go to hell! They are real calls from a loving and merciful God to ALL of us.

What Calvinism refuses to consider is that God is, indeed, big enough and sovereign enough to allow us those real choices.

 

[Helen]

Why Abraham and why not Lot? Because God KNEW what Abraham would choose and KNEW what Lot would choose! That is what foreknowledge is. It does not deny the choice, but it does know about it.

God created time itself. Being outside of time, he knows all time at once. We are known, beginning to end, by Him. That does not mean, however, that He has not allowed us free choice especially where HE is concerned.

What glory is there is predestining someone to something? The glory is that despite the surroundings of a man, the man still chooses God. God has done all the work necessary for justice and salvation and everything else. But it is when the sinner repents and looks to Him that that gives Him glory and there is rejoicing in heaven.

Why on earth would there be rejoicing if everything was predestined from before creation and just being worked out? A machine being set in motion may be interesting, but its movements at each turn are simply programmed into it. The fact that it works is lovely, but that's it.

Creation is a lot different from a machine.

Calvinism is, come to think of it, simply a sort of spiritual form of evolution! God set it up and let 'er rip! Despite anything else He may have told us in the Bible!

 

[Hardsheller]

Helen,

In your explanation of how every corner of the earth has enough of the truth to lead to God it seems as though you're saying that God has left a trail of crumbs through the wilderness of sin and all any person has to do is find and follow that trail of (truth) crumbs and they will find God at the end of the trail.

This is not the impression one gets when you read Luke 19:10 "For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost."

Not is it the impression you get when you read, "Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God."

 

[Helen]

Luke 19:10 is referring specifically to the Jews "Today salvation has come to this house, becuase this man, too, is a son of Abraham. for the Son of Man came to seek and to save what was lost."

What was lost was Israel.

"He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him." John 1:11

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing." Matt. 24:15

"But Zion said, 'the Lord has forsaken me, the Lord has forgotten me.'

'Can a mother forget the baby at her breast and have no compassion on the child she has borne?
Though she may forget, I will not forget You!
Se, I have engraved you on the palms of my hands;
your walls are ever before me.'"
Isaiah 49:14-16

In Romans 3:11, Paul is quoting from Psalm 53. Psalm 53 talks about the fool who says in his heart 'there is no God'. THESE are the people who are corrupt, whose ways are vile, who do not understand or seek God. These are the people who do no good at all and have become together corrupt. This is NOT talking about the average man! If it were, then the passages that urge people to seek God, to seek Him while He may be found, are all nonsense! And the Bible does not contain nonsense.

Yes, God has left a witness of Himself and for Himself in the life of every man, one way or another. And if a man wants the truth, God the Father will lead him to Christ, who IS the Truth.

 

[rlvaughn]

Yes, Helen, that was a scenario which was "made-up", called an illustration - an illustration of what you've already admitted in this thread: that the "gospel in the stars" had to be taught/passed down, that when not passed down it is lost to a culture, and that in some cases has been perverted into something else.

As far as I am concerned, I am not asking how much faith is saving faith. You are the one discussing that. My question is "faith in whom?" If it is in some perverted story about the constellations it is not faith in Christ.

 

[Hardsheller]

Originally posted by Helen:
Why Abraham and why not Lot? Because God KNEW what Abraham would choose and KNEW what Lot would choose! That is what foreknowledge is. It does not deny the choice, but it does know about it.

God created time itself. Being outside of time, he knows all time at once. We are known, beginning to end, by Him. That does not mean, however, that He has not allowed us free choice especially where HE is concerned.

What glory is there is predestining someone to something? The glory is that despite the surroundings of a man, the man still chooses God. God has done all the work necessary for justice and salvation and everything else. But it is when the sinner repents and looks to Him that that gives Him glory and there is rejoicing in heaven.

Why on earth would there be rejoicing if everything was predestined from before creation and just being worked out? A machine being set in motion may be interesting, but its movements at each turn are simply programmed into it. The fact that it works is lovely, but that's it.

Creation is a lot different from a machine.

Calvinism is, come to think of it, simply a sort of spiritual form of evolution! God set it up and let 'er rip! Despite anything else He may have told us in the Bible!

So you're saying that out of all men on earth God picked Abraham because of foreknowledge of some inherent quality in Abraham?

Are you assuming that Lot received the same choice?

Are you saying that God had no "real choice" in the matter of Abraham becoming the Father of Israel? That it was all up to Abraham?

Is God really held captive by our "free will"?

 

[Helen]

God is not captive to our free will. He has chosen, as a matter of HIS free will, to be responsive to our choices. He did not have to do it this way, but that is the way He chose to do it. That is the reason you see such a massive series of 'if/then' statements all through the Old Testament especially.

However, the flip side of this approaches Calvinism, but does not deny our free will. Because God knew it all ahead of time, He planned for it -- even to the point of Christ being the Lamb sacrificed from the foundation of the world. It was worked out in time, but God already knew what we would choose.

So I guess, if you look at it one way, and especially when you consider the crucifixion, that God willingly made Himself 'captive' to our free will, giving us the opportunity to make ourselves captive to His. For without that act of love from Him, there is no way any of us would have had the opportunity to love Him back.

 

[Helen]

Originally posted by rlvaughn:
Yes, Helen, that was a scenario which was "made-up", called an illustration - an illustration of what you've already admitted in this thread: that the "gospel in the stars" had to be taught/passed down, that when not passed down it is lost to a culture, and that in some cases has been perverted into something else.

As far as I am concerned, I am not asking how much faith is saving faith. You are the one discussing that. My question is "faith in whom?" If it is in some perverted story about the constellations it is not faith in Christ.

Faith in the Creator God, the God of gods and Lord of lords. There is only one, and mankind has always known that. His promise has come down a multitude of ways, only one of which was written across the heavens in the stars.