How were they saved?

This is not what the text says. Abraham was told to look at the stars because of the great number -- and was told so his descendants would be (many). He was also told his descendants would be as many the dust or sand.

There's nothing there about being told to look at the "story" in the stars.

 

Sorry, Helen, but the text does not say that God told Abraham to "look at the story in the stars." It just is not there.

What Paul says does not conflict with Genesis, but is about the seed being the promised Messiah. This does not negate what God told Abraham in Gen., that his descendants would be as many as the stars.

God tells Abraham both that his descendants will be many and this his "seed" would "possess the gate of their enemies." So even though there is a singular seed, it does not negate the stars representing the descendants of Abraham.

The word translated as "count," saphar also means to relate, declare, measure, recount, and number, but it is translated as "count" in this passage for a reason. God says "if you are able to count them," obviously referring to their number, not to a story, especially when he says right after this, "so shall your descendants be." This is supported by the other passages as well.

 

Helen, the text does not say that God told Abraham to look at the story in the sky. It's not there. Abraham believed in the God of the Bible, as did David, Jonah, Samuel, etc. There is no biblical evidence for the story in the stars and certainly not in this passage.

 

I have tried to keep most of my references to the gospel in the stars to the minimum of how it relates to the question of the original post. I have further tried to show that, even if we allow that the gospel in the stars is true, it doesn’t address the original question. But much of the discussion has centered on that, and since several posts by others have dealt with that only, I’m going to discuss it a little more.

After reading the Dolphin link given on the first page, I feel even stronger that this position is based on finding something outside the Bible and then looking for proof-texts in the Bible to prop it up. Surely we must know that since God named the stars and gave them for signs, since the constellations and Zodiac are mentioned in the Bible, and the wise men followed a star, etc., etc., then it follows that God has written the story of Jesus Christ in the Zodiac!? However you approach it, there is a long road of "ifs" to tread to reach the destination.

After looking over the totality of the references given, it is my understanding that the weight of this argument rests on Genesis 15 coupled with Galatians 3, and Psalm 19 coupled with Romans 10.

According to this theory, since Abram was told to count the stars, and Paul said the seed was Christ, then it must follow that God wrote the gospel in the stars.!?

There are several incorrect assumptions and some left out information. It is noted in the section "God’s Promise to Abraham" on the linked page that we must be very careful to separate two incidents where God speaks of the stars to Abraham (Gen. Chapters 15 & 22). Nevertheless, the author was not careful to address some other things (or was careful not to). It is mentioned that God preached the gospel to Abraham (Gal. 3:8), and then Gal. 3:6 is given to build the context for the star discussion being Genesis 15 only. Yet the reference of Galatians 3:8 to Genesis 12:3 (which stands between in the discussion) is skipped over: "And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed." [cf. Gen. 12:3 - "...in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed."] So God preaching the gospel to Abraham is not associated chronologically by Paul with Gen. 15, but with Gen. 12. Also, Paul does not bring up the fact that the seed is singular to address some imagined gospel in the stars, but to explain God’s covenant with Abraham and to explain how the promise is by faith and not law. The inheritance was by confirmed in Christ, some 400 years before the law was given, and the law cannot cancel it. The point of the promise to the seed (singular) Christ does not contradict the fact that Abraham would have an innumerable seed, but in fact shows how it is fulfilled spiritually. In the seed Christ there is a great multitude which no man can number, of all nations, tongues and people.

When one plugs the gospel in the stars idea back in to Genesis 15:5, it comes out something like this: "And God brought Abram outside and said, Look up in the sky and tell the story of the zodiac, if you’re able to tell it: and God said to him, So shall Christ be. And Abram believed what God told him about Christ in the stars; and God counted it to him for righteousness."

There are a number of problems with this. It is interesting that the "gospel in the stars" theorists point out that words for constellations and the zodiac are mentioned in the Bible, but fail to point out they are not used here. Here God told Abram to look at the stars (kokab). Constellations are stars, but stars are not necessarily constellations. There is a difference in the Hebrews words translated "count" (or "number" in the KJV). But any assumption that "caphar" cannot mean to number or count as in making a census is incorrect. And "manah" (used in Genesis 13) can mean "tell".

 

While some may think the Psalm/Romans reference is so explicit that there is no getting around that this is a rather direct reference to the Gospel being written in the signs of the zodiac, that interpretation actually contradicts some obvious things about the passage.

The "gospel in the stars" is told or taught and passed down from generation to generation, therefore only available to those who have been taught it. But whatever the Psalmist and Paul speak of is universal.

It is universal geographically (through all the earth), but it is my understanding that all the constellations are not visible from all places in the world. Whether they are or not, the "gospel in the stars" has not been passed down to every single individual through all the earth who has ever lived.

It is universal chronologically (Day unto day...and night unto night), but the "gospel in the stars" is limited by time. The time it takes to tell it and pass it on chronologically from generation to generation (or fail to pass it on).

World Book @ Nasa states, "Some constellations can be seen only during certain seasons due to the earth's annual revolution around the sun. The part of the sky visible at night at a particular place gradually changes as the earth moves around the sun. Also, observers at different latitudes see different parts of the sky. An observer at the equator can view all the constellations during the course of a year, but an observer at the North or the South Pole can see only a single hemisphere of constellations."

It is universal, according to context, to all people of all times, while the "gospel in the stars" is limited to those who have been told it.

 

I think this testimony from John of Japan (who is a missionary in Japan) from the new "Is there Salvation outside of Christ?" is appropriate to add to the record of this thread.

 

I'll be glad to. Click below to go directly to Helen's response, and then one can commute around the thread from there. Helen's first post is on page 1; John's response to Helen's response is on page 2.

Is there Salvation outside of Christ?, post 13

 

I sure am glad that God didn't leave me with only the stars in the sky to know of His great Salvation.

He send me a preacher that I might hear the Word of God, receive faith to believe in Him (faith cometh by hearing), and be saved. And when I read the Scriptures, I see that this is the hallowed and chosen method of evangelism.

For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

No, wait! Helen says there are many ways to know Christ and believe on Him! Ah, the succulent fruit of Arminianism—Paganism.

 

The Apostle stated, "In many ways TO the fathers THROUGH the prophets." Kind of undoes your whole premise, doesn't it?

 

I took a look at both of your links and found them an interesting read. Probably anyone who believes the Genesis creation account will not be surprised that some forms of the truth have survived in different cultures, since we all descended from Adam (and Noah). Nevertheless, I did not find them speaking too well to the questions you raised - How were people in the time before Christ saved? How are people who have never heard of Christ saved? The last link appears to be about people who heard of Christ in the centuries soon after His death and resurrection.

And it seemed to me that the testimony of John of Japan is one experiential witness against the utility of long lost and perverted truth in leading one to an understanding of salvation in Jesus Christ.

 

Gosh, this GIS thing has really developed into a complicated thread!

I'll just mention my own opinion on this subject.

I certainly accept the Psalmist as saying the heavens declare the glory of God

And I certainly accept the reference Paul of Tarsus made in Romans to the affect that the "preaching" of the stars reaches everybody.

But saying that the actual names of the constellations told a story . . . ! That, to me, is adding to what the Bible is trying to say to us here.

Rather, what happens is this.

Individual looks up at the stars and begins to contemplate his place in the Universe and is awe struck at the beauty of creation and, by implication, the greatness of the Creator, whoever it was.

God's spirit takes the opportunity to reach out to the individual's spirit and take him down the road of repentance and faith.

Faith in what? In Whom? That is something I am commanded to assist with by the great commission. But we all know we don't get to every soul on earth.

No salvation can ever be achieved except by the sacrifice of Christ on the cross.

But Christ has many names. He is the Way, the Truth, the Life. He is Creator. He is All that is Good. I am content that there will be many in heaven who found Christ through His spirit tho unable to do so by His earthly name. And all who face the judgment seat will be forced to admit they had their chance one way or the other, every one of us.