How were they saved?

[Helen]

I know this is going to be repetitive, but I just wrote out this for someone else and I think I put it together in a way that might make sense here:

About Psalm 19:

The heavens declare the glory of God;
the skies proclaim the work of his hands.
Day after day they pour forth speech;
night after night they display knowledge.
There is no speech or language
where their voice is not heard.
Their voice goes out into all the earth,
their words to the ends of the world."

Now let's take a look at something Paul states in Romans 10:17-18

"consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ. But I ask: Did they not hear? Of course they did:
'Their voice has gone out into all the earth,
their words to the ends of the world.'"

Paul is referring to Psalm 19 as having to do with the word of, or about, Christ. There is no getting around that point. This is a rather direct reference to the fact that the Gospel message was written in the signs of the zodiac.

There is another reference to that, and one which is often mistaken.

In Genesis 13:15-16, God is promising Abraham an incredible number of descendants:

"All the land that you see I will give to you and your offspring forever. I will make your offspring like the dust of the earth, so that if anyone could count the dust, then your offspring could be counted."

No doubt about the meaning of that one. For the record, the word for 'count' here is 'manah', meaning to count, as in taking a census.

Now look at Genesis 17:15-16:

"God also said to Abraham, 'As for Sarai, your wife, you are no longer to call her Sarai; her name will be Sarah. I will bless her and will surely give you a son by her. I will bless her so that she will be the mother of nations; kings of peoples will come from her.'"

No question about the meaning of that one, either.

But now look at another moment Abraham had with God. Go to Genesis 15:4-6:

"Then the word of the Lord came to him: 'This man [his servant] will not be your heir, but a son coming from your own body will be your heir.' He took him outside and said, 'Look up at the heavens and count the stars -- if indeed you can count them.' Then he said to him, 'So shall your offspring be.'
Abram believed the Lord, and he credited it to him as righteousness."

Two words there -- offspring is 'zera', which is more correctly translated in the King James (I have been quoting from the NIV) as 'seed'. And it is in the singular. The other word to mention here is, again, 'count' -- but this time it is a different word that is used and one that does NOT mean to number something. The word is 'sapar' which means to 'tell', as in a story or a narrative.

Paul refers to this incident in Galatians 3:16:

"The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. The Sripture does not say 'and to seeds,' meaning many people, but 'and to your seed', meaning one person, who is Christ."

In other words, in Genesis 15, God was not promising Abraham many descendents, which He had promised before and would promise again. Rather He was telling Abraham to look at the story in the stars and was telling him that his descendant would be the Messiah. This is the reason, when Abraham believed him, that God credited to him as righteousness, for all righteousness is in Christ, and only in Christ.

A further evidence that this is what Abraham believed comes from the time he was ready to sacrifice Isaac. Evidently he thought Isaac was the Messiah, and, knowing the Messiah must be killed, or sacrificed, was ready to do it himself. But he also knew the Messiah would be resurrected. Look at what he tells his servants when he asks them to wait for him:

"On the third day Abraham looked up and saw the place in the distance. He said to his servants, 'Stay here with the donkey while I and the boy go over there. We will worship and then WE will come back to you.'"

He knew he would sacrifice Isaac. He also was quite sure that Isaac would be restored to him.

In Revelation 13:8, we read that Christ is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. Abraham knew something about the Lamb of God, for he tells his son, who is inquiring about the sacrifice, "God himself will provide the lamb for the burnt offering, my son." (Gen. 22:8)

Abraham had been told by God to look at the story in the stars and he was so sure of it that when God told him to sacrifice Isaac, he was sure that this was the promised Seed. He was wrong, but we still use that picture today of the sacrifice of the first-born (even though Isaac was not sacrificed).

This is just material from the Bible. The evidence extra-biblically that the Gospel has been written in the heavens is rather massive. Some of it has been discussed in the article I co-wrote some years ago here:
http://www.ldolphin.org/zodiac/index.html -- skip down to the last part of the main article -- the part authored by Malcolm Bowden -- and you will see some startling evidence in the names of the stars themselves. Remember, although man named the animals, it was God who named the stars, and that had a purpose.

 

[Marcia]

Abraham had been told by God to look at the story in the stars

This is not what the text says. Abraham was told to look at the stars because of the great number -- and was told so his descendants would be (many). He was also told his descendants would be as many the dust or sand.

indeed I will greatly bless you, and I will greatly multiply your seed as the stars of the heavens and as the sand which is on the seashore; and your seed shall possess the gate of their enemies. Gen. 22.17

And I will make your seed as the dust of the earth, so that if a man can count the dust of the earth, then shall your seed also be counted. Gen. 13.16

There's nothing there about being told to look at the "story" in the stars.

 

[Helen]

Sorry, Marcia, but Paul disagrees with you on that one. He states specifically that the mention was not only of 'seed' in the singular, but that it referred to Christ. This is quite different from the other times when God spoke to Abraham about his descendents. In addition, the word 'count' in Genesis 15 does not mean to number something, but rather to tell something.

I know you don't like this, but that is what the Bible says.

 

[Marcia]

Sorry, Helen, but the text does not say that God told Abraham to "look at the story in the stars." It just is not there.

What Paul says does not conflict with Genesis, but is about the seed being the promised Messiah. This does not negate what God told Abraham in Gen., that his descendants would be as many as the stars.

Gen 15.5
And He took him outside and said, "Now look toward the heavens, and count the stars, if you are able to count them " And He said to him, " So shall your descendants be."
Genesis 15:4-6

Genesis 22:17
indeed I will greatly bless you, and I will greatly multiply your seed as the stars of the heavens and as the sand which is on the seashore; and your seed shall possess the gate of their enemies.


Genesis 26:4
" I will multiply your descendants as the stars of heaven, and will give your descendants all these lands; and by your descendants all the nations of the earth shall be blessed;

God tells Abraham both that his descendants will be many and this his "seed" would "possess the gate of their enemies." So even though there is a singular seed, it does not negate the stars representing the descendants of Abraham.

The word translated as "count," saphar also means to relate, declare, measure, recount, and number, but it is translated as "count" in this passage for a reason. God says "if you are able to count them," obviously referring to their number, not to a story, especially when he says right after this, "so shall your descendants be." This is supported by the other passages as well.

 

[Helen]

Which is, of course, why Paul explained it the way he did....

Marcia, you don't like it, but it's there. Sorry...

All righteousness is in Christ. Noah was a preacher of righteousness. That means he taught about the coming Messiah. When Abraham believed God and it was credited to him as righteousness, it clearly had something to do with Christ. Paul explains that in the passage I quoted.

It's there, like it or not.

 

[Marcia]

Helen, the text does not say that God told Abraham to look at the story in the sky. It's not there. Abraham believed in the God of the Bible, as did David, Jonah, Samuel, etc. There is no biblical evidence for the story in the stars and certainly not in this passage.

 

[Helen]

Again, Paul disagrees with you.

 

[rlvaughn]

I have tried to keep most of my references to the gospel in the stars to the minimum of how it relates to the question of the original post. I have further tried to show that, even if we allow that the gospel in the stars is true, it doesn’t address the original question. But much of the discussion has centered on that, and since several posts by others have dealt with that only, I’m going to discuss it a little more.

After reading the Dolphin link given on the first page, I feel even stronger that this position is based on finding something outside the Bible and then looking for proof-texts in the Bible to prop it up. Surely we must know that since God named the stars and gave them for signs, since the constellations and Zodiac are mentioned in the Bible, and the wise men followed a star, etc., etc., then it follows that God has written the story of Jesus Christ in the Zodiac!? However you approach it, there is a long road of "ifs" to tread to reach the destination.

After looking over the totality of the references given, it is my understanding that the weight of this argument rests on Genesis 15 coupled with Galatians 3, and Psalm 19 coupled with Romans 10.

According to this theory, since Abram was told to count the stars, and Paul said the seed was Christ, then it must follow that God wrote the gospel in the stars.!?

Genesis 15:1-6 After these things the word of the LORD came unto Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward. And Abram said, Lord GOD, what wilt thou give me, seeing I go childless, and the steward of my house is this Eliezer of Damascus? And Abram said, Behold, to me thou hast given no seed: and, lo, one born in my house is mine heir. And, behold, the word of the LORD came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir. And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be. And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

Galatians 3:5-18 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham. For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them. Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto. Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect. For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

There are several incorrect assumptions and some left out information. It is noted in the section "God’s Promise to Abraham" on the linked page that we must be very careful to separate two incidents where God speaks of the stars to Abraham (Gen. Chapters 15 & 22). Nevertheless, the author was not careful to address some other things (or was careful not to). It is mentioned that God preached the gospel to Abraham (Gal. 3:8), and then Gal. 3:6 is given to build the context for the star discussion being Genesis 15 only. Yet the reference of Galatians 3:8 to Genesis 12:3 (which stands between in the discussion) is skipped over: "And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed." [cf. Gen. 12:3 - "...in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed."] So God preaching the gospel to Abraham is not associated chronologically by Paul with Gen. 15, but with Gen. 12. Also, Paul does not bring up the fact that the seed is singular to address some imagined gospel in the stars, but to explain God’s covenant with Abraham and to explain how the promise is by faith and not law. The inheritance was by confirmed in Christ, some 400 years before the law was given, and the law cannot cancel it. The point of the promise to the seed (singular) Christ does not contradict the fact that Abraham would have an innumerable seed, but in fact shows how it is fulfilled spiritually. In the seed Christ there is a great multitude which no man can number, of all nations, tongues and people.

Galatians 3:26-29 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

When one plugs the gospel in the stars idea back in to Genesis 15:5, it comes out something like this: "And God brought Abram outside and said, Look up in the sky and tell the story of the zodiac, if you’re able to tell it: and God said to him, So shall Christ be. And Abram believed what God told him about Christ in the stars; and God counted it to him for righteousness."

There are a number of problems with this. It is interesting that the "gospel in the stars" theorists point out that words for constellations and the zodiac are mentioned in the Bible, but fail to point out they are not used here. Here God told Abram to look at the stars (kokab). Constellations are stars, but stars are not necessarily constellations. There is a difference in the Hebrews words translated "count" (or "number" in the KJV). But any assumption that "caphar" cannot mean to number or count as in making a census is incorrect. And "manah" (used in Genesis 13) can mean "tell".

Genesis 12:3 - And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed. 13:16 - And I will make thy seed as the dust of the earth: so that if a man can number the dust of the earth, then shall thy seed also be numbered. 15:5 - And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be. 17:16 - And I will bless her, and give thee a son also of her: yea, I will bless her, and she shall be a mother of nations; kings of people shall be of her. 22:17 - That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;
Hebrews 11:12 - Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable.

 

[Helen]

rl, you don't have to go along with it. That does not bother me. I have presented the evidence and you have rejected it. I do believe that, along with Psalm 19 and the extra-biblical evidence historically that there is not even a question anymore about the Gospel in the Stars. But it is not necessary now. We know who the Christ is and was. And that knowledge has been disseminated throughout the world, as He commanded.

Is it possible that others were saved who did not know the identity of the Promised One? Absolutely. Believing on the Promise and trusting the Creator God with one's life -- following the truth that one is shown -- that leads you to Christ. The evidence exists all over the world historically and from the stories of missionaries that people everywhere have had something of the Promise left within their cultures -- enough to grab onto if one so chose. Christ fulfilled all that. Grabbing onto the Promise (metaphorically, please) is the same as grabbing onto Christ if one does not know who He is historically.

However, by rejecting the Gospel in the Stars, you are rejecting the meaning of Psalm 19 and Paul's reference to it as telling the story of Christ in the stars in Romans 10.

 

[rlvaughn]

Psalm 19:1-6 The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork. Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge. There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard. Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them hath he set a tabernacle for the sun, Which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber, and rejoiceth as a strong man to run a race. His going forth is from the end of the heaven, and his circuit unto the ends of it: and there is nothing hid from the heat thereof.

Romans 10:12-21 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world. But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you. But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me. But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

While some may think the Psalm/Romans reference is so explicit that there is no getting around that this is a rather direct reference to the Gospel being written in the signs of the zodiac, that interpretation actually contradicts some obvious things about the passage.

The "gospel in the stars" is told or taught and passed down from generation to generation, therefore only available to those who have been taught it. But whatever the Psalmist and Paul speak of is universal.

It is universal geographically (through all the earth), but it is my understanding that all the constellations are not visible from all places in the world. Whether they are or not, the "gospel in the stars" has not been passed down to every single individual through all the earth who has ever lived.

It is universal chronologically (Day unto day...and night unto night), but the "gospel in the stars" is limited by time. The time it takes to tell it and pass it on chronologically from generation to generation (or fail to pass it on).

World Book @ Nasa states, "Some constellations can be seen only during certain seasons due to the earth's annual revolution around the sun. The part of the sky visible at night at a particular place gradually changes as the earth moves around the sun. Also, observers at different latitudes see different parts of the sky. An observer at the equator can view all the constellations during the course of a year, but an observer at the North or the South Pole can see only a single hemisphere of constellations."

It is universal, according to context, to all people of all times, while the "gospel in the stars" is limited to those who have been told it.

 

[rlvaughn]

Originally posted by Helen:
Secondly, missionaries have found that in every culture visited there is some kind of memory of one Creator God and the story that He will rescue us.

Originally posted by John of Japan:
As one on the BB who has lived in a heathen culture for decades, I can give experiential proof that Romans 1 is absolutely true. People in heathen cultures are headed 180 degrees away from Christ. Neither natural revelation nor whatever truth is in their native religion can bring them to Christ.

Japanese Buddhists and Shintoists cannot possibly come to Christ without hearing the Gospel. Quite the opposite: their religions instill in them pride in self, prejudice towards Christ, etc. To give just one example, the primary premise of Buddhism is that man can become "hotoke," or a god, after death. Thus the primary faith of Japan, whether it be Buddhism or Shintoism, is ancestor worship.

Originally posted by Helen:
Third, there is evidence in the written characters of ancient Chinese that they were not only vaguely aware, but FULLY aware of the Gospel promise, including the original creation story, the fall of man, and the reality of a Triune God.

Originally posted by John of Japan:
We missionaries have been using the Chinese characters to witness for more than 100 years, but there is the key: we must still witness to the Asians. I have never known a Japanese or Chinese who realized without being told what was in the Chinese characters.

I think this testimony from John of Japan (who is a missionary in Japan) from the new "Is there Salvation outside of Christ?" is appropriate to add to the record of this thread.

 

[Helen]

And I responded to him there. Maybe you should link all of it, eh?

 

[rlvaughn]

I'll be glad to. Click below to go directly to Helen's response, and then one can commute around the thread from there. Helen's first post is on page 1; John's response to Helen's response is on page 2.

Is there Salvation outside of Christ?, post 13

 

[Aaron]

I sure am glad that God didn't leave me with only the stars in the sky to know of His great Salvation.

He send me a preacher that I might hear the Word of God, receive faith to believe in Him (faith cometh by hearing), and be saved. And when I read the Scriptures, I see that this is the hallowed and chosen method of evangelism.

For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

No, wait! Helen says there are many ways to know Christ and believe on Him! Ah, the succulent fruit of Arminianism—Paganism.

 

[Helen]

Aaron, if you are quite finished with your personal slams against me -- I am not Arminian and most certainly not pagan -- you will note that Hebrews 1 says that in the past God spoke in many ways but now through His Son. That is all I was saying, too. I'm sure you do not consider the writer of Hebrews a pagan.

 

[Aaron]

The Apostle stated, "In many ways TO the fathers THROUGH the prophets." Kind of undoes your whole premise, doesn't it?

 

[Helen]

Been going through some news stuff and ran across this:
http://www.world-science.net/othernews/051213_mayamuralfrm.htm

The indication of a birth, sacrifice and resurrection of a god is in the material even as interpreted by secular folk. Interesting, eh? Granted it is mixed up with some other things, but I am wondering that if we actually understood all of it, how much of the actual Promise of God remained unadulterated in this early civilization.

 

[Helen]

This was posted on another forum just now. It indicates not only very early Christian influence in China but their knowledge of the creation and such before that.

http://www2.chinadaily.com.cn/english/doc/2005-12/22/content_505587.htm

 

[rlvaughn]

I took a look at both of your links and found them an interesting read. Probably anyone who believes the Genesis creation account will not be surprised that some forms of the truth have survived in different cultures, since we all descended from Adam (and Noah). Nevertheless, I did not find them speaking too well to the questions you raised - How were people in the time before Christ saved? How are people who have never heard of Christ saved? The last link appears to be about people who heard of Christ in the centuries soon after His death and resurrection.

And it seemed to me that the testimony of John of Japan is one experiential witness against the utility of long lost and perverted truth in leading one to an understanding of salvation in Jesus Christ.

 

[Paul of Eugene]

Gosh, this GIS thing has really developed into a complicated thread!

I'll just mention my own opinion on this subject.

I certainly accept the Psalmist as saying the heavens declare the glory of God

And I certainly accept the reference Paul of Tarsus made in Romans to the affect that the "preaching" of the stars reaches everybody.

But saying that the actual names of the constellations told a story . . . ! That, to me, is adding to what the Bible is trying to say to us here.

Rather, what happens is this.

Individual looks up at the stars and begins to contemplate his place in the Universe and is awe struck at the beauty of creation and, by implication, the greatness of the Creator, whoever it was.

God's spirit takes the opportunity to reach out to the individual's spirit and take him down the road of repentance and faith.

Faith in what? In Whom? That is something I am commanded to assist with by the great commission. But we all know we don't get to every soul on earth.

No salvation can ever be achieved except by the sacrifice of Christ on the cross.

But Christ has many names. He is the Way, the Truth, the Life. He is Creator. He is All that is Good. I am content that there will be many in heaven who found Christ through His spirit tho unable to do so by His earthly name. And all who face the judgment seat will be forced to admit they had their chance one way or the other, every one of us.