37818
Well-Known Member
Ah, there is a future literal, 1 John 3:2, ". . . when he shall appear, we shall be like him; . . ."
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How were we "in him" (Christ) before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:4)?
- Thread starter George Antonios
- Start date
Dave G
Well-Known Member
The "glorified" spoken of in Romans 8:30.
37818
Well-Known Member
Explain to me how one can be stated to be predestined to be conformend to the image of Christ, the future adoption, without being predestined to salvation? So how can I seem to deny that? The two passages, Romans 8:29-30 and Ephesians 1:5 explicitly refer to the latter. Ephesians 1:4 corporately infers the former. And the corporate is made up of individuals.
Ephesians 2
11Therefore remember that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called “Uncircumcision” by the so-called “Circumcision,” which is performed in the flesh by human hands— 12remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
"remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world."
This has never been the case for the elect according to Calvinist because they always had a hope always had a God, always had a promise and never separate from Christ.
Ephesians 2
17AND HE CAME AND PREACHED PEACE TO YOU WHO WERE FAR AWAY, AND PEACE TO THOSE WHO WERE NEAR; 18for through Him we both have our access in one Spirit to the Father.
Still reaching out to those FAR OFF/FAR AWAY.
Particular
Well-Known Member
I don't understand your dilemma.
God chose the elect from before the foundation of the world. Why would anyone deny that?
Because you were not in Christ.
Ephesians 2
. 13But now in Christ Jesus ........
As is you have yourself jumping in and out, saved, lost, saved.
If your a believer and born again there is a part of you inside Jesus that is OUTSIDE OF TIME, time being a foundation existence.
Just answering this question might snap you out: Where you always IN JESUS?
Out of context you will say yes Ephesians 1
Ephesians 2 points out the were not in Jesus to begin with and that none of the covenants or promises applied to them. Had they been chosen for salvation from eternity past then obviously they always had a covenant and promise apply to them.
Particular
Well-Known Member
You have a poor understanding of Paul's letter to the Ephesians. Paul starts his letter with "before the foundations of the world" so that the readers can see God's sovereign work in their lives from before time began.
Why are you trying to tear God down and make him smaller than you?
Your not arguing with me, simply give me your take on what this means:
Ephesians 2
12remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
The problem with folks always quoting "before the foundations of the world" is they leave out JESUS. "IN HIM before the foundations of the world"
You were not always in IN HIM. Scripture states plainly "BUT NOW IN CHRIST"
Particular
Well-Known Member
This is just a matter of point of view.
God, existing outside of time views all things simultaneously.
Humans, being bound in time, see things on a timeline.
You seem to struggle with God's Supremacy and thus try to force him into your little box.
11 Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh—who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands—
12 that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.
13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
How can someone be "in Christ" from before the foundation of the world (Eph. 1:4) and just a few verses later Paul says when you were in the flesh (before you were saved) you were "without Christ" or "aliens to the covenant"? How can someone be "without Christ" but brought to him "by the blood of Christ" if they were supposedly "in Christ" from before the foundation of the world?
Is this necessary? Is this what you must resort to in order to feel good about your incorrect theology?
Particular
Well-Known Member
I already explained.
God exists outside of time. All happens simultaneously with God.
We live in time. We see events on a timeline.
Often the authors address people on the timeline. When ya about God's work, God does not fit on the timeline.
You are demanding God exist only in your timeline.
Particular
Well-Known Member
It I necessary. Stop placing yourself on the throne and attempting to make God small.
No, I am not "demanding that God exist only in my timeline." Strawman, #4. (Do you even realize how often your arguments devolve into parody?)
I'm pointing out that Paul used the phrase you "were without Christ" when they "were in the flesh" to the believers at Ephesus, and they were not brought into Christ until he put them there "after the cross".
This is a direct contradiction to them being "in Him before the foundation of the world". I'm saying there's something amiss with your theology. I'm not demanding that God exist only in my timeline. I'm not buying your explanation of "in time" and "out of time".
#4.
Particular
Well-Known Member
I already addressed why Paul speaks on a timeline to his readers. I also addressed why Paul starts with chosen before the foundation of the world.
I'm not sure why you are struggling.
Particular
Well-Known Member
They, nor I, were confused. You, on the other hand, seem confused.
I believe God is supreme not the system. Could God run existence in a way that is not Calvinism if he wanted to?
I would wager you believe Calvinism is higher than God.
The verses quoted points out they were not in Christ and none of the promises applied to them. IF your version were true he would have never said this he would just echo they have always been in Christ.
Particular
Well-Known Member
God doesn't break his children up by the methods humans use to try understand Him.
Where we differ is in how we comprehend God's word and what He reveals about His character.
I contend that you have created God in your image and look for scripture to support what you have created.
I let scripture show the vastness of God and His Supreme authority. I don't look for prooftexts to force God into a box. I let God's word express itself and adjust my view to God. You adjust God to fit your view.
Two vastly different approaches.