How would you respond to the following atheist objection.

[plain_n_simple]

We should always preach to the lost, and when we do the Holy Spirit will confirm that word with signs and wonders. This is for believers only. If you choose not to believe that the power still works, and that we still do the work of Jesus, that is your option. In this area you are an unbeliever.

It is an awesome thing tell a stranger something you could not possibly know, it can only be from God.
God will only share these things with those He can trust. Your intenions must be pure, to convince the unbeliever that the Gospel of Jesus Christ is true.
Without this confirming power of the Holy Ghost, your word is dead. Like a clanging bell.

Many in the church claim only the gifts that an unbeliever could claim. Wisdom, Knowledge, Faith, Discerning of spirits. Anyone can say that have these without any proof.

These you deny exist because you have not seen them manifest, or have not been given them:
Healing, Prophecy, Tongues, Interpretation of Tongues, Miracles. How convenient to exclude what you cannot do.

Romans 11 says the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable.

You reject it, you deny the power. You look for reasons to deny the power, instead of reasons they still exist. If you have no experience in them, you should not judge what you do not understand. Praise be to Jesus who lives and never changes.

 

[JesusFan]

We should always preach to the lost, and when we do the Holy Spirit will confirm that word with signs and wonders. This is for believers only. If you choose not to believe that the power still works, and that we still do the work of Jesus, that is your option. In this area you are an unbeliever.

The Gospel WAS already confirmed by god through the Apostles themselves!

MIGHT have God confirming Jesus through signs/wonders in areas never before penatrated by Gospel, but only in special cases!

Not normitive for today though...

It is an awesome thing tell a stranger something you could not possibly know, it can only be from God.
God will only share these things with those He can trust. Your intenions must be pure, to convince the unbeliever that the Gosel of Jesus Christ is true.
Without this confirming power of the Holy Ghost, your word is dead. Like a clanging bell.

The HS is one who takes the Gospel and enables the sinner to become a saint...

God is the one that grants repentence and faith to those to be saved by the Gospel of the Christ, and He does NOT need anyhting from me to have His job get done!

Many in the church claim only the gifts that an unbeliever could claim. Wisdom, Knowledge, Faith, Discerning of spirits. Anyone can say that have these without any proof.

These you deny exist because you have not seen them manifest, or have not been given them:
Healing, Prophecy, Tongues, Interpretation of Tongues, Miracles. How convenient to exclude what you cannot do.

I DO speak in personal tongues, have been used twice in a sign gift, so know what I speak of here...

Just realise that those are side issues, the Gospel and the Cross is what saves, period!

And ALL christians have same amount of "power" from God, same message of the Cross, as we ALL are commanded to be daily filled up with Him!

Romans 11 says the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable.

You reject it, you deny the power. You look for reasons to deny the power, instead of reasons they still exist. If you have no experience in them, you should not judge what you do not understand. Praise be to Jesus who lives and never changes.

I have 'experienced" what you speak of, its hjust that the Gifts MAIN purpose are to those within the local church setting, God can do things as you say RARE situations, but the norm would be preach jesus and have the HS do His saving work...

We are ALL saved by jesus, ALL have same HS in us, ALL can be empowered by him to live for jesus, REGARDKLESS of our views on Spiritual Gifts for today!

Again, side issue, non essentials to be discussed :"in house" not to divide over!

 

[plain_n_simple]

Jesus always did these things, to help unbelief. We are commanded to follow Him. They are not rare, seek and you will find. It is God's will to heal, to reach the lost, to make followers.

 

[JesusFan]

Jesus always did these things, to help unbelief. We are commanded to follow Him. They are not rare, seek and you will find. It is God's will to heal, to reach the lost, to make followers.

we are no longer in the Apostolic Church Age, ONLY thing for sure we need today is the Gospel of the Cross!

 

[plain_n_simple]

The Apostolic Church Age is an invented doctrine for those that could not do the works of Christ. They twist scripture to justify their unbelief.

Many pastors simply gave up following, and turned to doctrines that deny the power, and excuse themselves in front of their congregations. They have bills to pay and bellies to fill.


Under this age of grace, Jesus is the same and so are His instructions. He did not change. No where does it say once we have the new testament these thing will stop. In the coming age they will, we are not there yet.

Destroy the works of the Devil is our instruction, not guilt a person into a prayer not even found in the bible.

Many in the church claim only the gifts that an unbeliever could claim. Wisdom, Knowledge, Faith, Discerning of spirits. Anyone can say that have these without any proof.

These you deny exist because you have not seen them manifest, or have not been given them:
Healing, Prophecy, Tongues, Interpretation of Tongues, Miracles. How convenient to exclude what you cannot do.

 

[JesusFan]

The Apostolic Church Age is an invented doctrine for those that could not do the works of Christ. They twist scripture to justify their unbelief.

Many pastors simply gave up following, and turned to doctrines that deny the power, and excuse themselves in front of their congregations. They have bills to pay and bellies to fill.


Under this age of grace, Jesus is the same and so are His instructions. He did not change. No where does it say once we have the new testament these thing will stop. In the coming age they will, we are not there yet.

Destroy the works of the Devil is our instruction, not guilt a person into a prayer not even found in the bible.

Many in the church claim only the gifts that an unbeliever could claim. Wisdom, Knowledge, Faith, Discerning of spirits. Anyone can say that have these without any proof.

These you deny exist because you have not seen them manifest, or have not been given them:
Healing, Prophecy, Tongues, Interpretation of Tongues, Miracles. How convenient to exclude what you cannot do.

NONE of us can do "anything: in and by ourselves, as they are ALL done by the HS in and through us operating!

Again, the Acts of the Apsotles was a transisition period from law to Grace age, now firmly under age of Grace/new Covenant, so ONLY thing tht we need to do is abide in Christ, walk inthe HS empowering, and teach/preach about Jesus, and ALl sainst can do that!

remember asking in an Assemblis of God college before becoming a baptist if Billy Graham would have been MORE effective as an Evangelsit IF he would have had spoke in tongues nad been "baptised in the Holy Ghost"...

the teacher paused, and he realised just how non biblical the concept of second act of Grace, extra HS power, tongues as THE evidence of that really was!

Shortly after that time. left Assemblies, and went first to Evangelical Free Church, than to baptist one!

 

[MNJacob]

To the OP. Our job is to present the Gospel.

We cannot convict anyone of thier sin. We cannot "convince" or persuade. We do the best we can with the truth, delivered earnestly, and with desparate concern for the lost, in desparate hope for thier salvation, truth delivered in love, demonstrated by a life of Christian love.

Only the Holy Spirit can do the job of the Holy Spirit. Don't be concerned that you can't do what only God can do.

Do the best you can, then pray harder.

 

[plain_n_simple]

NONE of us can do "anything: in and by ourselves, as they are ALL done by the HS in and through us operating!

Never said we could do it on our own, we cannot. It is Jesus in me. He does not lay dormant, He does what He did when He walked this earth, working through us. Jesus in the flesh.

Again, the Acts of the Apsotles was a transisition period from law to Grace age

The age of Law stopped when Christ nailed them to the cross.
It speaks nothing of a transition period between Law and Grace, if there was, it was while He was on earth for 3 years.

Where does it say or identify that there would be an age called apostolic?
Where does it speak of this apostolic age begining and ending?

Since John the Baptist, the Kingdom is preached.

When miracles happened, Jesus said the Kingdom has come near you.This has not stopped. Jesus the same yesterday, today, and forever. If you are truly in the Kingdom, you will do the works He did, Him working through you.



, ... so ONLY thing tht we need to do is abide in Christ, walk inthe HS empowering, and teach/preach about Jesus, and ALl sainst can do that!

Which of the gifts stopped at the end of this apostolic age you speak of?

Knowledge ?
Faith ?
Wisdom ?
Discerning of Spirits ?
Healing ?
Tongues ?
Interpretation of Tongues ?
Prophecy ?
Miracles ?

Our instructions:

Matt 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you:

The command: John 14

12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

This is addressed to those that believe on Him, not only the disciples.

Mark 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.

20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.
Again, notice that He told us to preach the gospel, and signs will follow. This is addressed to all believers not only the disciples.

The word always comes with power. Holy Spirit power producing miracles, signs, wonders.

It does not say preach the Gospel with a convincing speech.

It is much easier to create doctrine to say miracles dont happen than it is to enter the Kingdom and let Him work though you.

A preacher can preach an excellent heartfelt message, then invite a few to say a prayer.

Another preacher can preach the same, and heal the sick, cast out demons, say a prophetic word.

The latter has gospel integrity by the Holy Spirit.

The former is a clanging bell that has no power. Just words any heathen can say for a dollar.

 

[JesusFan]

NONE of us can do "anything: in and by ourselves, as they are ALL done by the HS in and through us operating!

Never said we could do it on our own, we cannot. It is Jesus in me. He does not lay dormant, He does what He did when He walked this earth, working through us. Jesus in the flesh.

Again, the Acts of the Apsotles was a transisition period from law to Grace age

The age of Law stopped when Christ nailed them to the cross.
It speaks nothing of a transition period between Law and Grace, if there was, it was while He was on earth for 3 years.

Where does it say or identify that there would be an age called apostolic?
Where does it speak of this apostolic age begining and ending?

Since John the Baptist, the Kingdom is preached.

When miracles happened, Jesus said the Kingdom has come near you.This has not stopped. Jesus the same yesterday, today, and forever. If you are truly in the Kingdom, you will do the works He did, Him working through you.



, ... so ONLY thing tht we need to do is abide in Christ, walk inthe HS empowering, and teach/preach about Jesus, and ALl sainst can do that!

Which of the gifts stopped at the end of this apostolic age you speak of?

Knowledge ?
Faith ?
Wisdom ?
Discerning of Spirits ?
Healing ?
Tongues ?
Interpretation of Tongues ?
Prophecy ?
Miracles ?

Our instructions:

Matt 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you:

The command: John 14

12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

This is addressed to those that believe on Him, not only the disciples.

Mark 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.

20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.
Again, notice that He told us to preach the gospel, and signs will follow. This is addressed to all believers not only the disciples.

The word always comes with power. Holy Spirit power producing miracles, signs, wonders.

It does not say preach the Gospel with a convincing speech.

It is much easier to create doctrine to say miracles dont happen than it is to enter the Kingdom and let Him work though you.

A preacher can preach an excellent heartfelt message, then invite a few to say a prayer.

Another preacher can preach the same, and heal the sick, cast out demons, say a prophetic word.

The latter has gospel integrity by the Holy Spirit.

The former is a clanging bell that has no power. Just words any heathen can say for a dollar.

Jesus will say to MANY at judgement day "depart from me, I never knew you, you workers of iniquity"

They were said to have done healings/miracles/wonder in His name, but were false/fakes/lost

satan will deceive many in last days by signs and wonders

How do YOU know which is of God, and of satan?

Also, check hebrews 2:1-4, writer said that the Gospel was already confirmed by Apostles signs and wonders, past deed, so no new need to do such for today!

 

[plain_n_simple]

How do YOU know which is of God, and of satan?

Whoever says Jesus came in the flesh. What flesh? Our flesh right now, living in us, working His works through us. If denied, it is not God. Guess what you have done?

Hebrews 2 says nothing about these signs and wonders stopping. It says they were confirmed as in Mark 16:20
"And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen."

Again, He was commanding believers. We are believers. The Spirit will confirm our word also.

Where does it say apostolic age?
Where does it declare that it would begin and end?

 

[Tom Butler]

To the atheist, I would say "If I'm wrong and there is no God, when I die that will be all there is, and I will have lost nothing.

"If you're wrong, and there is a God, when you die you will have lost everything."

 

[quantumfaith]

To the atheist, I would say "If I'm wrong and there is no God, when I die that will be all there is, and I will have lost nothing.

"If you're wrong, and there is a God, when you die you will have lost everything."

Pascal's Wager

 

[quantumfaith]

To the OP. Our job is to present the Gospel.

We cannot convict anyone of thier sin. We cannot "convince" or persuade. We do the best we can with the truth, delivered earnestly, and with desparate concern for the lost, in desparate hope for thier salvation, truth delivered in love, demonstrated by a life of Christian love.

Only the Holy Spirit can do the job of the Holy Spirit. Don't be concerned that you can't do what only God can do.

Do the best you can, then pray harder.

I respectfully disagree as to persuading etc. True, salvation itself is of God, but our words and actions can point people, cause them to consider, etc. Paul himself gave us a great illustration of such.

 

[plain_n_simple]

To the atheist, I would say "If I'm wrong and there is no God, when I die that will be all there is, and I will have lost nothing.

"If you're wrong, and there is a God, when you die you will have lost everything."

How is that helping the atheist, let alone preaching the gospel to him?

 

[JesusFan]

How do YOU know which is of God, and of satan?

Whoever says Jesus came in the flesh. What flesh? Our flesh right now, living in us, working His works through us. If denied, it is not God. Guess what you have done?

Hebrews 2 says nothing about these signs and wonders stopping. It says they were confirmed as in Mark 16:20
"And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen."

Again, He was commanding believers. We are believers. The Spirit will confirm our word also.

Where does it say apostolic age?
Where does it declare that it would begin and end?

paul "lost" the power to do acts of healings, evidenced by asking Timothy to drink wine, unable to heal own thorn in his flesh...

We know God still able to physically heal, per His Will, as he is sovereign, but NO faith healers today!

Hebrews shows us that the church saw the Apsotolic signs and wonders being "good enough" to confirm Gospel...

The basic premise of modern Pentacostalsm/Charisma is biblically flawed, as there is an assuming that Gods will is always to heal/prosper etc
healing was provided for in the atonement etc

NO!
Hebrews chapetr of faith
per God, some do have great exploits they do, others sick/injured etc BOTH praised by God!

 

[plain_n_simple]

You have not provided any scripture (not just one verse) to prove this apostalic age you speak of. It comes down to this. Jesus had compassion on people and healed them. You will need this to do His works, which is what He told us to do. Love your brother as yourself. Paul did not lose a thing. You should read the verses you quote in context and read the whole chapters.

But this is where the devil wants the church, in unbelief.
Jesus always healed those who were brought to Him. He did the Fathers will. It is the Fathers will that all are healed, that is another meaning of "saved" from the Greek.
Wouldn't it be a wonderful thing if you saw a person healed by the laying on of hands, and in His name?

 

[mandym]

You have not provided any scripture (not just one verse) to prove this apostalic[sic] age you speak of. It comes down to this. Jesus had compassion on people and healed them. You will need this to do His works, which is what He told us to do. Love your brother as yourself. Paul did not lose a thing. You should read the verses you quote in context and read the whole chapters.

But this is where the devil wants the church, in unbelief.
Jesus always healed those who were brought to Him. He did the Fathers will. It is the Fathers will that all are healed, that is another meaning of "saved" from the Greek.
Wouldn't it be a wonderful thing if you saw a person healed by the laying on of hands, and in His name?

And then you make this false statement with no scripture to back it up. Scripture no where indicates that God wants everyone healed here and now. There will come a day in the future when we will see our full redemption (Romans 8:19-21; 1 Peter 1:3-5; Revelation 22)

 

[saved by grace]

Came across the following objection to theism in general and Christianity in particular.

How can God confine someone to an infinite hell for a finite amount of sin?

I would be interested in how you might "debate" this issue with such a skeptic.

Hell is eternal but it is not infinite. Only God is infinite.
There is no sense of time in hell. There is no night and day. The person in hell does not grow old. He does not see days and years pass by. There is no sense of time passing since eternity is outside of time.

I would ask the skeptic if he would ever sentence someone to life in prison. If a person freely chooses to murder and then is sentenced by a judge to spent the rest of his life looking out the bars of his jail house window would he consider that to be unjust? If he says no then doesn't God, the ultimate judge, have the right to sentence a person to eternal punishment?

 

[JesusFan]

You have not provided any scripture (not just one verse) to prove this apostalic age you speak of. It comes down to this. Jesus had compassion on people and healed them. You will need this to do His works, which is what He told us to do. Love your brother as yourself. Paul did not lose a thing. You should read the verses you quote in context and read the whole chapters.

But this is where the devil wants the church, in unbelief.
Jesus always healed those who were brought to Him. He did the Fathers will. It is the Fathers will that all are healed, that is another meaning of "saved" from the Greek.
Wouldn't it be a wonderful thing if you saw a person healed by the laying on of hands, and in His name?

You label unbelief any who would rightly divide the Bible for intretation purposes!

The Bible clearly states that its the Cross of Christ, His death/resurrection to atone for sins is what the Church mandated to preach, not "signs and wonders"

I DO believe that the HS can still assign to us as HE wills differing Gifts according to the Grace bestowed upon us, but MUCH of current charismatic stuff being taught by those like Copeland/hagin/Hinn/paulk/price/Capps etc is outright hersey!

IF one has to go one side or the other in this, MUCH superior to err on NOT accepting the cultic/heretical/satanic doctrines and teaching of those I just indenified in modern charasmatic movement!

 

[glfredrick]

I've watched this entire 6 page thread unfold, and after reading all the many posts, I am of a mind that most of the posters have never (EVER) tried engaging an atheist.

Some of you should try it once or twice. Might be an enlightening experience for you.

This said from the perspective of a former atheist. Praise God, I am no longer, but I was, and most of what has been said here would not be effective.

The way it often shakes down is the Calvinist who tries to witness to an atheist and fails goes away convinced that the atheist is not of the elect. The Arminian who fails goes away thinking that he or she did not do a good enough job of selling the gospel (convincing). In fact, neither is true. What is really happening is that neither the arguments nor the power of God is in evidence in most witnessing encounters with atheists. I know how many I defeated when they tried with me. It took GOD to convince me otherwise.

But, that being said, what turned my head toward God was evidence that He existed. That HAS to be the first step for someone who can casually say that he or she does not give a rip about your God, your Bible, your church, or your faith.