How's Your Hermeneutic?

[Earth Wind and Fire]

So, in a nutshell your argument is that God makes you sneeze; that He's the Author of allergies? What of the man who decides to live in an area high in pollen? Or who has non-hypoallergenic pets by His own free choice?

Truely you have never been a Catholic, so how would you possibly know about his unique charism.

This fellow has competing ideas about, in particular, Reformed theology. Sometimes controversial beliefs like atonement serves to stimulate conversation so let’s have at it. I have been a RC for 34 years then went searching... I think he is searching also, perhaps to find his place in a world of numerous and competing and contradictory beliefs.

 

[tyndale1946]

Truely you have never been a Catholic, so how would you possibly know about his unique charism.

This fellow has competing ideas about, in particular, Reformed theology. Sometimes controversial beliefs like atonement serves to stimulate conversation so let’s have at it. I have been a RC for 34 years then went searching... I think he is searching also, perhaps to find his place in a world of numerous and competing and contradictory beliefs.

Never been an RC!... Just been an Old Line Hard shelled Baptist since I've been knee high to a grasshopper... That was 65 years ago!.. I don't want to jump in here and rain on your parade but I am enjoying the show... Brother Glen

Had to look up Hermeneutic... You Bible scholars and your fancy words!

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Never been an RC thank God!... Just been an Old Line Hard shelled Baptist since I've been knee high to a grasshopper... That was 65 years ago!.. I don't want to jump in here and rain on your parade but I am enjoying the show... Brother Glen

So you do not know what Catholics believe? I live in a state that is approximately 85% Catholic. There many here that question their Catholicism, questions never asked a generation ago. If you were born Catholic, you simply accepted your faith, it’s traditions and beliefs... but things are changing and today’s Catholics are curious ... so I believe you have to know your form of Christianity fairly well and something about other faith traditions to have a meaningful dialogue.

 

[atpollard]

People can do that, but that wasn't the point of this thread.

What I want to discuss here is the act of ascribing meaning to a text, outside of, and in spite of, its context, and if that is a proper way in which to read the Bible.

Doesn’t Hebrews play a little fast and loose with text it quotes from the OT when you go back and read it in context?

Now, personally, I am more comfortable giving the Holy Spirit and the inspired writers more leeway than I am willing to take myself in that area. However it is not as if there is NO precedent for it in scripture.

 

[thatbrian]

Doesn’t Hebrews play a little fast and loose with text it quotes from the OT when you go back and read it in context?

Now, personally, I am more comfortable giving the Holy Spirit and the inspired writers more leeway than I am willing to take myself in that area. However it is not as if there is NO precedent for it in scripture.

Are you willing to make a specific case for your view? Is there an example in Hebrews that you have in mind?

 

[atpollard]

Lets hear the Calvinist take on this scripture:

Luke 11

13“If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him?”


Calvinist Answer is ZERO. Is that what Jesus is implying?

So who will ask?
Who are the children of God?

 

[utilyan]

So, in a nutshell your argument is that God makes you sneeze; that He's the Author of allergies? What of the man who decides to live in an area high in pollen? Or who has non-hypoallergenic pets by His own free choice?

#1 Cause of death is being born.

I'll take credit for inventing sneezing, seriously I'm sure God thought it up.

 

[atpollard]

Are you willing to make a specific case for your view? Is there an example in Hebrews that you have in mind?

Compare Hebrews 2:12 in the context of Hebrews Chapter 2 with Psalm 22:22 in the context of all of Psalm 22.

 

[utilyan]

You appear to have an ongoing battle running with people you call “Calvinists” ... I prefer to call them Salvation by Grace or Doctrines of Grace people These, myself included, have a very systematic theology stance that you continually poke fun at...I personally believe you don’t understand it fully and use your Catholic Doctrines as a measurement tool to critique the other theology.... and you do that cause you are unable to grasp DoG so you just criticize it.

Let me start with Atonement. When I was an RC I was taught “universal redemption” —- the belief that Jesus died for all and that the only thing that keeps them from the benefits of his death is their unbelief or lack of faith. We DoG believers affirm that Jesus died for a select number of people, those whom the Father specifically had given Him, that His atonement accomplishes their salvation, and therefore that all of these are certain to be saved. DoG people all affirm that the value of Jesus death was so great-in fact, infinite, that it is more than sufficient to atone for all the people in all ages of this world. Therefore the value of the death of Jesus the Christ is not limited in any way. His atonement is of infinite value.

So when you hear someone speak of limited atonement (used in the old TULIP acrostic) throw that away... it is erroneous. You can substitute it for Particular Redemption or what I prefer Definate Atonement.

Now let me stop here at this point and ask if I am making any sense to you. We 5 Point (Doctrines of Grace) people are very exacting and what I have emphases are important in understanding our scriptural understanding of Systematic Theology.

We Catholics prefer to be called Catholics.

I want a answer to Jesus' question. Not a complaint about the question or a complaint about your answer or a complaint about my answer.

I already know your dilemma, in that God would have to initiate regeneration for anyone to even want to call the Holy Spirit. Which means the consistent answer to "HOW MUCH MORE" is ZERO since only God can make the call.

Why? because that initial regeneration is "THE SECRET OPERATION OF THE HOLY SPIRIT".

I assume you would teach Baptism for example would be an OUTWARD sign of a internal work already accomplished internal by God.


I just want the answer. I want you to cough up the ZERO. Because this offer is made for those who don't have the holy spirit to request it as assuredly as a child can ask for bread. Whereas the initially regenerated man doesn't make a request for something he already got.

“If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him?”

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Ole Bri

We Catholics prefer to be called Catholics.

I want a answer to Jesus' question. Not a complaint about the question or a complaint about your answer or a complaint about my answer.

I already know your dilemma, in that God would have to initiate regeneration for anyone to even want to call the Holy Spirit. Which means the consistent answer to "HOW MUCH MORE" is ZERO since only God can make the call.

Why? because that initial regeneration is "THE SECRET OPERATION OF THE HOLY SPIRIT".

I assume you would teach Baptism for example would be an OUTWARD sign of a internal work already accomplished internal by God.


I just want the answer. I want you to cough up the ZERO. Because this offer is made for those who don't have the holy spirit to request it as assuredly as a child can ask for bread. Whereas the initially regenerated man doesn't make a request for something he already got.

“If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him?”

OK, you are the Zero. You are a Catholic... enough said on that matter.

 

[utilyan]

So who will ask?
Who are the children of God?

Oh its OBVIOUS. If you can't tell who is Elect, then I got Good News.
1st You are not Elect,
2nd You can become Elect.

1 John 3

10By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.

John 13

35“By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.”

Its not a mystery.

 

[utilyan]

Ole Bri

OK, you are the Zero. You are a Catholic... enough said on that matter.

You can insult me all you want. I'd be angry too if couldn't answer a simple question Jesus gave.

how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him?”

I mean doctrines of grace. I never had a choice in debating you, you are just arguing with a perfect puppet of God.

Brother I made a challenge that should have been a piece of cake to answer.

So when you resort to insulting others rather then pointing to the content thanks for proving us right.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Tons of Catholics are pouring into our churches every day, curious as to what we have to offer. Most are interested in moving to a church that will despite them and not just cram them full of catholic dogma . It encourages me that these people come to us to study and learn scripture and give themselves to the Lord and why is that? Apparently the RCC has not fed them a steady diet of scripture and there doesn’t appear to be any love for them Catholic structure... apparently there are shortcomings. Too bad because it’s mostly the ex-Catholics who are now populating the NJ Protestant and Baptist Churches statewide

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

You can insult me all you want. I'd be angry too if couldn't answer a simple question Jesus gave.

how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him?”

I mean doctrines of grace. I never had a choice in debating you, you are just arguing with a perfect puppet of God.

Brother I made a challenge that should have been a piece of cake to answer.

So when you resort to insulting others rather then pointing to the content thanks for proving us right.

And thank you in turn for all your Catholics who now populate our Churches... we appreciate your contributions.

 

[utilyan]

1 John 5

2By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments. 3For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome.

Indeed WE KNOW. Have to point this verse for context. Cause we got believers = children of God and those who do not believe them "reprobates".


1 John 5

9If we receive the testimony of men, the testimony of God is greater; for the testimony of God is this, that He has testified concerning His Son. 10The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself; the one who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has given concerning His Son.11And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.

The one who does not believe God has made Him a LIAR.

WHY?

Because he has not believed in the testimony that God has given.

OH! whats the testimony that the unbeliever does not believe?

that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.


So the guy who doesn't believe Jesus died for him, is calling God a LIAR, because JESUS DIED FOR HIM.


Calvinist, doctrine of grace, institute of calvin students, reformed thoelogicals, the knights of ren and the get along gang...........

If a REPROBATE does not believe Jesus died for him isn't he telling the TRUTH rather then calling God a Liar?

 

[Reformed]

Tons of Catholics are pouring into our churches every day, curious as to what we have to offer. Most are interested in moving to a church that will despite them and not just cram them full of catholic dogma . It encourages me that these people come to us to study and learn scripture and give themselves to the Lord and why is that? Apparently the RCC has not fed them a steady diet of scripture and there doesn’t appear to be any love for them Catholic structure... apparently there are shortcomings. Too bad because it’s mostly the ex-Catholics who are now populating the NJ Protestant and Baptist Churches statewide

I came to faith in Christ in 1979 when the Jesus movement was popular among Roman Catholics in Northern New Jersey. My mother was part of a Bible study that was taking place in the basement of Our Lady of Sorrows Roman Catholic Church in Kearny, NJ. The Bible study was proclaiming the true gospel, much to the surprise of the Newark archdiocese. When the bishop finally figured out what was going on the movement had gone viral. He ordered the movement out of the church building. For a short time, everyone at the Bible study started going to Saint Antoninus Church in Newark. Saint Antoninus was a focal point for the Roman Catholic charismatic movement. What a hot mess that was! Roman Catholic error mixed with speaking in tongues. I was part of it for a short while before I went into the Air Force later that year.

Eventually, the Newark Archdiocese shut down what was going on at Saint Antoninus. Those people that were genuinely saved started going to a number of local churches throughout Essex, Bergen, and Hudson counties. Some went to Charismatic and Pentecostal churches while others wound up in Baptist churches. There really was an explosion of new believers at these churches. New churches were also planted. It was quite an experience. I am absolutely convinced it was the work of the Holy Spirit on a larger scale than we typically see. The Roman Catholic Church was weakened while gospel preaching churches were strengthened.

 

[utilyan]

And thank you in turn for all your Catholics who now populate our Churches... we appreciate your contributions.

Your welcome! What church is that?

Billy Bob's Pancake house? I love pancakes.

Last church I went to was Jehovah's witness. We had fried chicken and waffles......oh man it was so good.

Baptist Church sometimes we got like this pot luck going on with like the spanish congregations.

foooood.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

The paterson diocese literally robbed Peter to pay Paul with a series of closed churches and monasteries up and down New Jersey, all to support the Bishops pet project, the Pope John the 23 schools in Sparta... left a bad taste in the mouths of parents cause their small schools forfet their Catholic edu in the working class neighborhoods in favor of elite upper class neighborhoods. There was an AA meeting in Newton that was very successful in changing lives, providing Matt Talbot retreats etc that he closed on a wim without excuse that I thought particularly shameful.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Your welcome! What church is that?

Billy Bob's Pancake house? I love pancakes.

Last church I went to was Jehovah's witness. We had fried chicken and waffles......oh man it was so good.

Baptist Church sometimes we got like this pot luck going on with like the spanish congregations.

foooood.

Hey we got a Catholic Church here that allows beer and shots at the weekly bingo game... real popular on St Patty’s Day... you can go into the church and get looped prior to the parade and then later they sell fish and chip dinners and you could vomit in their bathrooms. It’s a wonderful way to express your Catholicism.

 

[Reformed]

Hey we got a Catholic Church here that allows beer and shots at the weekly bingo game... real popular on St Patty’s Day... you can go into the church and get looped prior to the parade and then later they sell fish and chip dinners and you could vomit in their bathrooms. It’s a wonderful way to express your Catholicism.

No different than Fat Tuesday leading up to Lent in New Orleans. Get your sin on and then make it all right during Lent.