Hundreds Of Questions About The Christian God

[Mike B]

What you have given me are beliefs. You haven't given me the evidence of your knowledge,

Contrary to my last comment, I will continue to discuss this with you......briefly.

Please address this question from my previous post:

******************************************************************************************

It seems that you have a wealth of knowledge, but are lacking in spiritual discernment.

Have to ask...have you ever earnestly prayed to God? Believing in your heart that He is there, and
hears your words? Do not fear, He is not going to smite you for asking for help and spiritual
understanding.

[edit in] Spiritual discernment comes from prayer and meditation.

1 Corinthians 2:13-14

13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the
Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto
him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

[edit in] In short, you need to quit countermanding everything and start praying to God for wisdom.

***********************************************************************************************

As for the "OSI Model", my trying to understand that would be akin to me trying to teach you how to
float your way through the gears on an 18 Speed Roadranger sitting behind a 3408 Cat. FWIW, I've had an
I-phone for over 10 years (couple of 'em) and have never gone so far as to add an "app". Don't even
know how to, and I'm good with that.

 

[Alan Dale Gross]

God knew this with express, explicit, infinite, foreknowledge, and He did it anyway!

From our perspective, as humans thinking in the flesh with our sin-cursed mind that has suffered the effects of the Fall of Adam, it may be the only way we can think about it is how God must have Actively Acted(?) in His having "ALLOWED CERTAIN THINGS" to happen, without our thinking being Enabled by the Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit Makes it possible for us to be Able to place God's Passive Decrees in our heart and soul, as simply being for HIS ULTIMATE GLORY.

Then, that is still while He still Holds all of the Guilty sinners Responsible for their own personal sins, which they will Suffer in The Lake of Fire, unless the are Saved by THE SAVIOR, Who, died, was buried, and rose again the third day, as a Perfect Sacrifice, in Place of their State of Guilt before the Judge of the Universe, TO SAVE THEIR SOUL.

Why would a God who says He loves us, create beings he knew from infinity, would cause such staggering, living torture?

I'm not sure what you mean by "God Who Says He Loves us". Where does the Bible say God Loves everyone, if that is what you're saying?

Do you think God Loves you? He let's you enjoy the rain and the sunshine and your own personal grasping around at what you may sense as being a Mightier Being to Whom you feel Accountable.

God Uses His Word to Visit people in their own Conscience, but also He Reveals Himself through His Creation.

18; "For the Wrath of God is Revealed from Heaven
against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men,
who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

19; "Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them;
because God hath Shewed it unto them.

20; "Because the Invisible things of Him from the Creation of the World
are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are Made,
even His Eternal Power and Godhead;
so that they are without excuse:

21; "Because that, when they knew God,
they glorified Him not as God, neither were thankful;
but became vain in their imaginations,
and their foolish heart was darkened.

22; "Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

23; "And changed the Glory of the Uncorruptible God
into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds,
and four-footed beasts, and creeping things."

Who put that 'Consense' their in our own head, to speak to us, a Warning?

Our Creator and we will meet with Him One Day, face-to Face, whether we are Prepared to Meet our Maker, or not.

Did Adam and Eve have free will? Could they have decided to obey God and thus we’d all still be kicking it in Eden to this day?

God Chose to Create a living entity, or 'being' apart from Himself, to Worship and Commune with God throughout Eternity.

However, the Extent of the Glory that would Please God would be less, for that Worship and Fellowship to come from a Created Being that had been Confirmed in their State of Innocents, like the Angles, or one simply like that of a robot, than from a Blood-Bought, Eternally, Saved soul, by the Blood of Jesus Christ.

In order for that Created being to Worship and Commune with God throughout Eternity to not be a Created Being that had been Confirmed in their State of Innocents, like the Angles, or one simply like a robot, with no ability to choose one way, or the other, that newly Created 'being' would have to be Made Mutable, that is to say that Adam was not only Given the "Free Will", as you say, but he actually had the choice Given to him of The Tree of Paradise, ot The Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil.

Adam was Given the Ability to choose one thing over another and he did.

In the eventuality of his life in the Garden of Eden, Adam chose to Rebel against God's All-Powerful Command and sin.

And, it had been me or you there that Day, we would have eventually chosen to not remain in Perfect Innocence, therefore, wherein Adam sinned, we all sinned in Adam, as if he were us.

Then, whether it was Adam, or us, there has now been a Change to our State of Nature, where we are sinners against God in every heartbeat, or breath, and would have never had to be 'taught how to lie, or steal', etc. We are all Natural Born children of Adam and we have all Inherited our Nature to Naturally sin from our Greatest-Great Grandfather, Adam.

God is Holy and Perfect and NOTHING SINFUL will be Entering His Heaven. And God Runs Heaven.

That sin would have to be Atoned for in another Manner, IF ANY HUMAN BEING COULD EVER GO TO HEAVEN WHEN THEY DIE, and it was, FOR GOD'S CHOSEN CHILDREN.

God Provided a Lamb. A Lamb Slain from the Foundation of the World.

Revelation 13:8;
"And all that dwell upon the Earth shall worship him,
whose names are not Written in the Book of Life
of the Lamb Slain from the Foundation of the World."

Did Lucifer have free will? If he did, would God have had to make a Lucifer 2.0 to carry out the rest of the Biblical plan?

With the '2.0'. No, no 'plan 2.0'

Without the '2.0' being meant to have been put in there,

Did Lucifer have free will? If he did, would God have had to make a Lucifer--- to carry out the rest of the Biblical plan?

Apparently.

I hope you're not trying to exalt a Doomed enemy of God, as if God couldn't have done without him.

God has Infinite Choices, including to Make the Choice to NOT Do ANYTHING Against His Perfect, Sinless, Nature and Essence.

an infinite God without limitations

God has Infinite Choices, including to Make the Choice to NOT Do ANYTHING Against His Perfect, Sinless, Nature and Essence and EVERYTHING WILL COME TO PASS, in the same way that we saw Jesus,

"being Delivered by the Determinate Counsel and Foreknowledge of God," Acts 2:23, which explains it all.

You Must Be Born Again.

 

[irmadlad]

Contrary to my last comment, I will continue to discuss this with you......briefly.

Please address this question from my previous post:

******************************************************************************************

It seems that you have a wealth of knowledge, but are lacking in spiritual discernment.

Have to ask...have you ever earnestly prayed to God? Believing in your heart that He is there, and
hears your words? Do not fear, He is not going to smite you for asking for help and spiritual
understanding.

[edit in] Spiritual discernment comes from prayer and meditation.

1 Corinthians 2:13-14

13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the
Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto
him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

[edit in] In short, you need to quit countermanding everything and start praying to God for wisdom.

***********************************************************************************************

As for the "OSI Model", my trying to understand that would be akin to me trying to teach you how to
float your way through the gears on an 18 Speed Roadranger sitting behind a 3408 Cat. FWIW, I've had an
I-phone for over 10 years (couple of 'em) and have never gone so far as to add an "app". Don't even
know how to, and I'm good with that.

RE: 18 Speed Roadranger sitting behind a 3408 Cat.

That was a pretty unique engine the 3408 CAT. If I remember correctly, one of the largest of the CAT line. I wouldn't know my way around one per se, but I am familiar with big diesel blocks. My expertise would lean more towards Cummins ISX / X15 family or John Deere PowerTech, but those are farm type equipment.

RE: It seems that you have a wealth of knowledge

I'm a mildly educated man tho, I do hold a degree in engineering. All that means is I can answer a lot of questions in a limited amount of time, and upon successfully doing that, I received a piece of paper. Most of what I know, I taught myself. From how to farm 22 acres, technology, science, you name it. I'm a hands on kind of guy.

RE: 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto
him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

I was wondering when this would show up. I get it a lot from Christians, usually right from the gate. 'The ways of God are foolishness to man'. So let me clear that up. If I thought this was all foolishness, honestly, I wouldn't have wasted your time, nor gone through all of this to waste my time either. Foolishness, no. Vague, ambiguous, confusing? Absolutely. And I speak of all of it.

RE: Have to ask...have you ever earnestly prayed to God? Believing in your heart that He is there, and
hears your words? Do not fear, He is not going to smite you for asking for help and spiritual
understanding.

Mike, I've been on this planet some 25,900 days +/- if you throw in gestation and all of that. Well over 50% of those days have heard me screaming into the void at God, Allah, Ganesha, or whatever is out there to reveal themselves/itself. The void does not answer. There's not much more I could do in earnest. I fully admit something happened way back when. It's quite obvious. Now, whether that something was the Big Bang, the Hindu creation as described in their Puranas, or the creation story according to Judaeo-Christian beliefs, or the creation story according to Islam (which again, almost parallels the Judaeo-Christian creation story), that is still left to discovered.

Here is the common thread throughout all religions, even tribal belief systems:

"If you do not believe the way we do, the book we believe, and the God we believe in and so fervently worship, then you will not go to our eternal reward, but you will go to our eternal damnation."

That's it in a nutshell. That basically covers anything you could ever discuss about religion, God, theology, or any kind of spirituality of any ilk. There's got to be more to it than that. For there to be a truth trifecta, there can only be one truth trifecta. You can have many truths, but only one truth trifecta. We used to do this in engineering studies with orthographic projection. Each plane of the object is a truth. However, until you project each and every plane to show the object's every facet, you only know the truth of what you can see initially. Not the truth trifecta.

 

[Alan Dale Gross]

"If you do not believe the way we do, the book we believe, and the God we believe in and so fervently worship, then you will not go to our eternal reward, but you will go to our eternal damnation."

You Must Be Born Again, as a Hellbound enemy of God who hates God,

Try this:

"If you do not believe the Way, the Truth, and the Life that God has Provided
through Jesus Christ's death, burial, and resurrection,
and the Book God Wrote and Preserved for us to know His Words to Mankind,

we believe, and the God Who Wrote that Book and Made the Promise of Eternal Salvation in it,

Who we believe in and so fervently Worship by the dictates of our own saved heart and soul,
as His Spirit Bares Witness with our Spirit that we are the saved sons of God,

then you will not go, because You Must Be Born Again,

to the Triune Godhead's and our Eternal Home,

but you will go to the Hell which God Created for the Devil and his Angels in eternal damnation."

I will be there to watch as Satan is cast into the Lake of Fire, along with the Beast and the False Prophet, all the Fallen Angels, and all the lost souls of Mankind who die without Salvation that is Only through Jesus Christ, the Savior.

That's it in a nutshell. That basically covers anything you could ever discuss about religion, God, theology, or any kind of spirituality of any ilk.

Religion has sent more billions of lost souls to Hell than most anything else.

Worshipping Satan is a false 'religion'.

And ,"the Devils 'believe' and tremble", so they 'know' and 'believe' in God and know about Jesus, but they are not saved.

"Thou believest that there is One God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble," James 2:19.

And the devils know that they will be Judged and are Doomed to Hell with Satan.

Matthew 8:28; "And when He was come to the other side into the country of the Gergesenes,
there met him two possessed with devils, coming out of the tombs,
exceeding fierce, so that no man might pass by that way.

29; "And, behold, they cried out, saying,
What have we to do with thee, Jesus, Thou Son of God?
art Thou come hither to Torment us before the Time?"

The Demons knew Jesus as Jesus, the Son of God, and yet knew they were Condemned to Hell, Forever.

Religion, for the most part, is purely of sin-cursed men, BY SATAN'S SUPERNAURAL EVIL INFLUENCE.

"Theology is nothing more than a speaking of God, or a discoursing concerning Him;
His Nature, Names, Perfections, and Persons; His Purposes, Providences, Ways, Works, and Word:"
His By Grace--"John Gill: A Body of Doctrinal & Practical Divinity"-Doctrinal Book 1, Chapter 1

 

[irmadlad]

From our perspective, as humans thinking in the flesh with our sin-cursed mind that has suffered the effects of the Fall of Adam, it may be the only way we can think about it is how God must have Actively Acted(?) in His having "ALLOWED CERTAIN THINGS" to happen, without our thinking being Enabled by the Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit Makes it possible for us to be Able to place God's Passive Decrees in our heart and soul, as simply being for HIS ULTIMATE GLORY.

Then, that is still while He still Holds all of the Guilty sinners Responsible for their own personal sins, which they will Suffer in The Lake of Fire, unless the are Saved by THE SAVIOR, Who, died, was buried, and rose again the third day, as a Perfect Sacrifice, in Place of their State of Guilt before the Judge of the Universe, TO SAVE THEIR SOUL.



I'm not sure what you mean by "God Who Says He Loves us". Where does the Bible say God Loves everyone, if that is what you're saying?

Do you think God Loves you? He let's you enjoy the rain and the sunshine and your own personal grasping around at what you may sense as being a Mightier Being to Whom you feel Accountable.

God Uses His Word to Visit people in their own Conscience, but also He Reveals Himself through His Creation.

18; "For the Wrath of God is Revealed from Heaven
against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men,
who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

19; "Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them;
because God hath Shewed it unto them.

20; "Because the Invisible things of Him from the Creation of the World
are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are Made,
even His Eternal Power and Godhead;
so that they are without excuse:

21; "Because that, when they knew God,
they glorified Him not as God, neither were thankful;
but became vain in their imaginations,
and their foolish heart was darkened.

22; "Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

23; "And changed the Glory of the Uncorruptible God
into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds,
and four-footed beasts, and creeping things."

Who put that 'Consense' their in our own head, to speak to us, a Warning?

Our Creator and we will meet with Him One Day, face-to Face, whether we are Prepared to Meet our Maker, or not.


God Chose to Create a living entity, or 'being' apart from Himself, to Worship and Commune with God throughout Eternity.

However, the Extent of the Glory that would Please God would be less, for that Worship and Fellowship to come from a Created Being that had been Confirmed in their State of Innocents, like the Angles, or one simply like that of a robot, than from a Blood-Bought, Eternally, Saved soul, by the Blood of Jesus Christ.

In order for that Created being to Worship and Commune with God throughout Eternity to not be a Created Being that had been Confirmed in their State of Innocents, like the Angles, or one simply like a robot, with no ability to choose one way, or the other, that newly Created 'being' would have to be Made Mutable, that is to say that Adam was not only Given the "Free Will", as you say, but he actually had the choice Given to him of The Tree of Paradise, ot The Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil.

Adam was Given the Ability to choose one thing over another and he did.

In the eventuality of his life in the Garden of Eden, Adam chose to Rebel against God's All-Powerful Command and sin.

And, it had been me or you there that Day, we would have eventually chosen to not remain in Perfect Innocence, therefore, wherein Adam sinned, we all sinned in Adam, as if he were us.

Then, whether it was Adam, or us, there has now been a Change to our State of Nature, where we are sinners against God in every heartbeat, or breath, and would have never had to be 'taught how to lie, or steal', etc. We are all Natural Born children of Adam and we have all Inherited our Nature to Naturally sin from our Greatest-Great Grandfather, Adam.

God is Holy and Perfect and NOTHING SINFUL will be Entering His Heaven. And God Runs Heaven.

That sin would have to be Atoned for in another Manner, IF ANY HUMAN BEING COULD EVER GO TO HEAVEN WHEN THEY DIE, and it was, FOR GOD'S CHOSEN CHILDREN.

God Provided a Lamb. A Lamb Slain from the Foundation of the World.

Revelation 13:8;
"And all that dwell upon the Earth shall worship him,
whose names are not Written in the Book of Life
of the Lamb Slain from the Foundation of the World."



With the '2.0'. No, no 'plan 2.0'

Without the '2.0' being meant to have been put in there,


Apparently.

I hope you're not trying to exalt a Doomed enemy of God, as if God couldn't have done without him.

God has Infinite Choices, including to Make the Choice to NOT Do ANYTHING Against His Perfect, Sinless, Nature and Essence.



God has Infinite Choices, including to Make the Choice to NOT Do ANYTHING Against His Perfect, Sinless, Nature and Essence and EVERYTHING WILL COME TO PASS, in the same way that we saw Jesus,

"being Delivered by the Determinate Counsel and Foreknowledge of God," Acts 2:23, which explains it all.

You Must Be Born Again.

RE: I'm not sure what you mean by "God Who Says He Loves us". Where does the Bible say God Loves everyone, if that is what you're saying?

Surely you are familiar with John 3:16: 'For God so loved the world'. There are probably hundreds of such references in the Christian Bible.

RE: Do you think God Loves you? He let's you enjoy the rain and the sunshine and your own personal grasping around at what you may sense as being a Mightier Being to Whom you feel Accountable.

Well, He says he does, but then again, love does not persecute, love protects. In the Christian Bible, one of the facets that is God is shown as is a violent being. In one instance He says, "I am an angry God." In another, "I am a jealous God." And in yet another instance, "You send forth Your burning anger, and it consumes them as chaff." What is God so angry and jealous at, regarding His very own creation? This is His own creation doing exactly as He knew from infinity they would do.

RE: Adam was Given the Ability to choose one thing over another and he did.

Once again, free will is incompatible with the structure of infallible knowledge. If He knows all, and all means all, and if he knows the beginning from the end, then He knows each and every thing that will happen.

For instance: the book of Revelation is not presented as a warning or a possibility tree. It's presented as what will happen. John isn't told, "here's what might occur if things continue." He's shown what must take place. The very structure of apocalyptic literature in the Biblical tradition is one of certainty, not contingency. "Write therefore what you have seen, what is now, and what will take place later."

No matter what transpires between Genesis 1:1 and whenever Revelations kicks off, Revelations happens. It's set in stone. Fixed by the very structure of infallible knowledge. You can't have it any other way. You cannot stick a 'but' in between 'without' and 'limitations'. You cannot say 'Well, he knows all, but...' As soon as you do, He ceases to be without limitations and therefore ceases to be God.

RE: I hope you're not trying to exalt a Doomed enemy of God, as if God couldn't have done without him. With the '2.0'. No, no 'plan 2.0' Without the '2.0' being meant to have been put in there, Apparently.

I'm not trying to be hypercritical here, and it's probably my inability to follow along with what you are saying, However, could you unpack some of this for me. I am sure it made sense when you typed it. Perhaps my Dick Tracy decoder ring is malfunctioning.

RE: God has Infinite Choices, including to Make the Choice to NOT Do ANYTHING

Well, yes. That would be the one of the options of 'without limitations'. Frankly speaking, if I had a choice whether to make me or not, I would have chosen not to make me in the first place, or anything for that matter.

RE: Who put that 'Consense' their in our own head, to speak to us, a Warning?

Well, I'm sure you would say God. However, I do not subscribe to the notion that all morality stems from a God. Even animals have codes of conduct and moral standards they live by if you'll take the time to observe them. This is innate in most every living creature. I have moral standards I have lived my life by. One is, we have a moral obligation to help our fellow man when he is in need, no matter who or what he is, or how he came to be in need. But I don't help my fellow man to gain favor with a deity, or that I may get some cosmic bump in karma. I do it because it's the right thing to do. No strings attached.

 

[irmadlad]

You Must Be Born Again, as a Hellbound enemy of God who hates God,

Try this:

"If you do not believe the Way, the Truth, and the Life that God has Provided
through Jesus Christ's death, burial, and resurrection,
and the Book God Wrote and Preserved for us to know His Words to Mankind,

we believe, and the God Who Wrote that Book and Made the Promise of Eternal Salvation in it,

Who we believe in and so fervently Worship by the dictates of our own saved heart and soul,
as His Spirit Bares Witness with our Spirit that we are the saved sons of God,

then you will not go, because You Must Be Born Again,

to the Triune Godhead's and our Eternal Home,

but you will go to the Hell which God Created for the Devil and his Angels in eternal damnation."

I will be there to watch as Satan is cast into the Lake of Fire, along with the Beast and the False Prophet, all the Fallen Angels, and all the lost souls of Mankind who die without Salvation that is Only through Jesus Christ, the Savior.

Religion has sent more billions of lost souls to Hell than most anything else.

Worshipping Satan is a false 'religion'.

And ,"the Devils 'believe' and tremble", so they 'know' and 'believe' in God and know about Jesus, but they are not saved.

"Thou believest that there is One God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble," James 2:19.

And the devils know that they will be Judged and are Doomed to Hell with Satan.

Matthew 8:28; "And when He was come to the other side into the country of the Gergesenes,
there met him two possessed with devils, coming out of the tombs,
exceeding fierce, so that no man might pass by that way.

29; "And, behold, they cried out, saying,
What have we to do with thee, Jesus, Thou Son of God?
art Thou come hither to Torment us before the Time?"

The Demons knew Jesus as Jesus, the Son of God, and yet knew they were Condemned to Hell, Forever.

Religion, for the most part, is purely of sin-cursed men, BY SATAN'S SUPERNAURAL EVIL INFLUENCE.

"Theology is nothing more than a speaking of God, or a discoursing concerning Him;
His Nature, Names, Perfections, and Persons; His Purposes, Providences, Ways, Works, and Word:"
His By Grace--"John Gill: A Body of Doctrinal & Practical Divinity"-Doctrinal Book 1, Chapter 1

RE: Try this:

You and I said the same thing. You just made it less generic and tailored the comment to what you believe.

RE: I will be there to watch as Satan is cast into the Lake of Fire, along with the Beast and the False Prophet, all the Fallen Angels, and all the lost souls of Mankind who die without Salvation that is Only through Jesus Christ, the Savior.

Again, these are events in Revelations that were fixed, set in stone by the structure of infallible knowledge. God does not plan that which does not happen. Also, as I keep repeating, if God knows something with certainty from eternity, it cannot happen otherwise. Not because of coercion, but because of the logical structure of infallible knowledge. If something could turn out differently, then God's foreknowledge would be wrong, and an omniscient God cannot be wrong. Therefore, whatever God knows will happen, and must happen. The future is fixed. Not open, not flexible, not contingent on human choices. Fixed.

This distinction matters more than it might seem. There's a difference between saying the future is fixed - locked in place by the logical structure of infallible knowledge - and saying God determined it - actively willed and authored every outcome. The first is logical determinism. The second is theological determinism. I'm claiming both, and the bridge between them is this: God didn't just know what would happen. He chose to create a world He knew would unfold this way, when He could have created a different world, or no world at all. His creative act was a selection among possibilities, and He selected the one He knew would produce Lucifer, the Fall, 170 billion souls (estimated population of the earth to date), and eternal torment for most of them. Foreknowledge makes the future unchangeable. The creative choice makes God responsible for the future He foreknew. He didn't just see the movie; He greenlit the production.

This shifts responsibility from "the Fall" back to the architecture of Creation itself. It's not that evil snuck in despite God's plan. It was baked into the plan from before the foundation of the world, by an omniscient Creator who knew exactly what He was building.

 

[Mikoo]

...

RE: Who put that 'Consense' their in our own head, to speak to us, a Warning?

Well, I'm sure you would say God. However, I do not subscribe to the notion that all morality stems from a God. Even animals have codes of conduct and moral standards they live by if you'll take the time to observe them. This is innate in most every living creature. I have moral standards I have lived my life by. One is, we have a moral obligation to help our fellow man when he is in need, no matter who or what he is, or how he came to be in need.

Who says 'we' have a moral obligation 'to help our fellow man when he is in need, no matter who or what he is, or how he came to be in need.' ?

But I don't help my fellow man to gain favor with a deity, or that I may get some cosmic bump in karma. I do it because it's the right thing to do. No strings attached.

'...it's the right thing to do.' Why is it the right thing to do? Based on what?

 

[irmadlad]

Who says 'we' have a moral obligation 'to help our fellow man when he is in need, no matter who or what he is, or how he came to be in need.' ?

'...it's the right thing to do.' Why is it the right thing to do? Based on what?

RE: Who says 'we' have a moral obligation

RE: '...it's the right thing to do.' Why is it the right thing to do? Based on what?

Based on empathy, compassion for our fellow man. None of us are self made. We've all had help along the way. When you find yourself in good fortune, and can help, pay it forward. This is how we grow as a society. Now I'm sure you will probably cite 'Love thy neighbor', but that's just good common sense based on compassion and empathy...not sympathy. Additionally, 'Love thy neighbor' is written it in all religious texts, because again, it's just good common sense. Along with 'Thou shalt not kill'. We already know this because we have empathy, compassion, respect for human life. Basic common sense.

 

[Mikoo]

RE: Who says 'we' have a moral obligation

RE: '...it's the right thing to do.' Why is it the right thing to do? Based on what?

You didn't answer my questions.

Based on empathy, compassion for our fellow man.

Is that a moral obligation? Why then? Is that the right thing to do? Who says?

None of us are self made. We've all had help along the way. When you find yourself in good fortune, and can help, pay it forward.

Why should we do that? Is that a moral obligation? If so, why? Is that the right thing to do? Who says?

This is how we grow as a society

That's an opinion.

Now I'm sure you will probably cite 'Love thy neighbor'

You are sure?

, but that's just good common sense based on compassion and empathy...not sympathy.

Common sense? Based on what?

Additionally, 'Love thy neighbor' is written it in all religious texts, because again, it's just good common sense.

Common sense? Based on what?

Along with 'Thou shalt not kill'. We already know this because we have empathy, compassion, respect for human life.

Who is we? Why should we have 'empathy, compassion, respect for human life.'?

Basic common sense.

Common sense? Based on what?

 

[irmadlad]

You didn't answer my questions.

Is that a moral obligation? Why then? Is that the right thing to do? Who says?

Why should we do that? Is that a moral obligation? If so, why? Is that the right thing to do? Who says?

That's an opinion.

You are sure?

Common sense? Based on what?

Common sense? Based on what?

Who is we? Why should we have 'empathy, compassion, respect for human life.'?

Common sense? Based on what?

Morality is a set of principles, values, and beliefs about what is right and wrong, good and bad, or what people ought to do.

It usually covers things like:

• How to treat others (e.g., honesty, fairness, kindness, respect)
• Rules or duties people follow (e.g., not harming, keeping promises)
• Character traits people aim for (e.g., integrity, courage, temperance)
• Justifications for actions (why something is right or wrong)

Different cultures and philosophical views can define morality differently, but the core idea is still about guiding conduct and evaluating actions or intentions.

Morality can be thought of as coming from multiple sources at once, rather than a single origin. The main ideas people use are:

• Human nature & biology: Humans are social, we rely on cooperation, and we have built-in tendencies like empathy, fairness sensitivity, and responding to harm. This can shape “moral instincts.”
• Evolution & survival of groups: Many moral rules make social life work: punishing cheaters, discouraging violence, rewarding cooperation, so groups with more reliable behavior may have advantages over time.
• Culture & society: Communities teach what counts as right or wrong through laws, customs, religion, stories, and upbringing.
• Reasoning & philosophy: People can reflect on moral questions and develop principles (like justice, rights, harm reduction, virtue). This can revise what they were taught.
• Personal experience & relationships: Close relationships, suffering, witnessing injustice, and learning consequences often deepen or reshape moral views.
• Social learning & institutions: Schools, media, peer groups, and legal systems reinforce norms; sometimes morality and law align, sometimes they clash.

However, these do not require the invocation of a deity if that's what you are driving at. These are merely rules that we as a society have established and find conducive to living in said society.

 

[Mikoo]

Morality is a set of principles, values, and beliefs about what is right and wrong, good and bad, or what people ought to do.

It usually covers things like:

• How to treat others (e.g., honesty, fairness, kindness, respect)
• Rules or duties people follow (e.g., not harming, keeping promises)
• Character traits people aim for (e.g., integrity, courage, temperance)
• Justifications for actions (why something is right or wrong)

Different cultures and philosophical views can define morality differently, but the core idea is still about guiding conduct and evaluating actions or intentions.

Thanks for your definition of morality. We are getting a little closer. So standards of morality to you are subjective. Got it. Still haven't answered my questions to your statemenst. But I understand why you don't.

Morality can be thought of as coming from multiple sources at once, rather than a single origin. The main ideas people use are:

• Human nature & biology: Humans are social, we rely on cooperation, and we have built-in tendencies like empathy, fairness sensitivity, and responding to harm. This can shape “moral instincts.”
• Evolution & survival of groups: Many moral rules make social life work: punishing cheaters, discouraging violence, rewarding cooperation, so groups with more reliable behavior may have advantages over time.
• Culture & society: Communities teach what counts as right or wrong through laws, customs, religion, stories, and upbringing.
• Reasoning & philosophy: People can reflect on moral questions and develop principles (like justice, rights, harm reduction, virtue). This can revise what they were taught.
• Personal experience & relationships: Close relationships, suffering, witnessing injustice, and learning consequences often deepen or reshape moral views.
• Social learning & institutions: Schools, media, peer groups, and legal systems reinforce norms; sometimes morality and law align, sometimes they clash.

Okay. So some more info on morality. Standards of morality are subjective to you. Got it. Still haven't answered my questions based on your statements.

However, these do not require the invocation of a deity if that's what you are driving at. These are merely rules that we as a society have established and find conducive to living in said society.

Got it. For you standards of morality are subjective.
Still waiting for you to answer my questions based on your statements. I think I know why. We'll see if we can eventually get there.

Did write this on your own or did you forget to give credit to your source/s?

 

[irmadlad]

Thanks for your definition of morality. We are getting a little closer. So standards of morality to you are subjective. Got it. Still haven't answered my questions to your statemenst. But I understand why you don't.

Okay. So some more info on morality. Standards of morality are subjective to you. Got it. Still haven't answered my questions based on your statements.

Got it. For you standards of morality are subjective.
Still waiting for you to answer my questions based on your statements. I think I know why. We'll see if we can eventually get there.

Did write this on your own or did you forget to give credit to your source/s?

RE: Did write this on your own or did you forget to give credit to your source/s?

This isn't the first time I've had this conversation. Are you indicating something nefarious on my part?

RE: Still haven't answered my questions to your statemenst. But I understand why you don't.

I feel very much like I did.

 

[Alan Dale Gross]

RE: I'm not sure what you mean by "God Who Says He Loves us". Where does the Bible say God Loves everyone, if that is what you're saying?

Surely you are familiar with John 3:16: 'For God so loved the world'. There are probably hundreds of such references in the Christian Bible.

The same Inspired Writer in I John 2:15 said,
"Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world.
If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him."

We can't just pluck a word out of the Bible and assume we have God's Understanding of what He has Said, as if we have the Mind of God, when other places the word may have various other meanings fully Intended by God, instead, in context.

"...not every man in the world is here meant, or all the individuals of human nature; for all are not the objects of God's special Love, which is here designed, as appears from the instance and evidence of it, the Gift of His Son:

"nor is Christ God's Gift to every one; for to whomsoever He gives His Son, He Gives all things freely with Him; which is not the case of every man."

But, by "the world";

"...the Gentiles particularly, and God's elect among them, are meant; who are often called "the world", and "the whole world", and "the nations of the world", as distinct from the Jews; see Romans 11:12, compared with Matthew 6:32.

(The Bible, in Romans 11:12 EQUATES "the World" with "the Gentiles".

"The Jews had the same distinction we have now, the church and the world; the former they took to themselves, and the latter they gave to all the nations around: hence we often meet with this distinction, Israel, and the nations of the world; on those words, (of the Jews

""let them bring forth their witness", that they may be justified, Isaiah 43:9 (say (b) the doctors) these are Israel; "or let them hear and say it is truth", these are "the nations of the world".''

"And again (c),

"the Holy, Blessed God said to Israel, when I judge Israel, I do not judge them as "the nations of the world":''

"and so in a multitude of places: and it should be observed, that our Lord was now discoursing with a Jewish Rabbi, and that he is opposing a commonly received notion of theirs, that when the Messiah came, the Gentiles should have no benefit or advantage by him, only the Israelites; so far should they be from it, that, according to their sense, the most dreadful judgments, calamities, and curses, should befall them; yea, hell and eternal damnation.

"There is a place (they say (d),) the name of which is "Hadrach", Zechariah 9:1. This is the King Messiah, who is, , "sharp and tender"; sharp to "the nations", and tender to "Israel".''

"And so of the "sun of righteousness", in Malachi 4:2, they say (e),

"there is healing for the Israelites in it: but the idolatrous nations shall be burnt by it.''

"And that (f).

"there is mercy for Israel, but judgment for the rest of the nations.''

"And on those words in Isaiah 21:12, "the morning cometh", and also the night, they observe (g),

"the morning is for the righteous, and the night for the wicked; the morning is for Israel, and the night for "the nations of the world".''

"And again (h),

"in the time to come, (the times of the Messiah,) the holy, blessed God will bring "darkness" upon "the nations", and will enlighten Israel, as it is said, Isaiah 60:2.''

"Once more (i),

"in the time to come, the holy, blessed God will bring the nations of the world, and will cast them into the midst of hell under the Israelites, as it is said, Isaiah 43:3.''

"To which may be added that denunciation of theirs (k).

"woe to the nations of the world, who perish, and they know not that they perish: in the time that the sanctuary was standing, the altar atoned for them; but now who shall atone for them?''

"Now, in opposition to such a notion, our Lord addresses this Jew; and 'it is as if' He had said,

"you Rabbins say, that when the Messiah comes, only the Israelites, 'the peculiar favorites of God', shall share in the Blessings that come by, and with Him; and that the Gentiles shall reap no advantage by Him, being hated of God, and rejected of Him: but I tell you,

God has so Loved the Gentiles, as well as the Jews,"

"that He Gave His Only Begotten Son,
that whosoever believeth in Him (from amoung the Gentiles as well as the Jews)
should not Perish, but have Everlasting Life."

That's the meaning of the verse, in John 3:16.

(b) T. Bab. Avoda Zara, fol. 2. 1.
(c) Ib. fol. 4. 1. Vid. T. Bab. Sanhedrin, fol. 91. 2. & Bereshit Rabba, fol. 11. 3.
((d) Shirhashirim Rabba, fol. 24. 1. Jarchi & Kimchi in Zech. ix. 1.
((e) Zohar in Gen. fol. 112. 2.
((f) Zohar in Exod. fol. 15. 1, 2.
((g) T. Hieros. Taaniot, fol. 64. 1.
((h) Shemot Rabba, sect. 14. fol. 99. 4.
(i) Ib sect. 11. fol. 98. 3.
((k) T. Bab. Succa, fol. 55. 2.

John 3 Gill's Exposition

"You Must Be Born Again," John 3:7b.

Surely you are familiar with John 3:16: 'For God so loved the world'. There are probably hundreds of such references in the Christian Bible.

You are using the same wild, rash, guesswork in saying, "There are probably hundreds of such references in the Christian Bible" that you used to assume "the world", in John 3:16, refers to every individual of Mankind.

God DOES NOT "LOVE" every individual of Mankind, or every individual of Mankind would be Saved, and those who are Suffering now in Hell wouldn't have been Sent there, Forever, to be Tormented as Punishment for their personal sins THAT GOD HATES and which will NEVER ENTER GOD'S HEAVEN.

 

[Alan Dale Gross]

There are probably hundreds of such references in the Christian Bible.

So, you are saying God Loves every human being in "the world", but is "angry and jealous...regarding His very own creation."

Here are some references;

Key Verses on God's Anger:

• • Job 42:7: "The Lord said to Eliphaz the Temanite, 'I Am Angry with you and your two friends, because you have not spoken the truth about Me...'" [1]
  • Exodus 32:10: "Now leave Me alone so that My Anger may Burn against them and that I may Destroy them. Then I Will Make you into a Great Nation." [1]
  • Psalm 7:11: "God is a Righteous Judge, a God Who Expresses His Wrath every day." [1]
  • Numbers 11:10: "Moses heard the people of every family wailing, each at the entrance to their tent. The Lord became very Angry, and Moses was troubled." [1, 2, 3, 4, 5]

Google Search

RE: Do you think God Loves you? He let's you enjoy the rain and the sunshine and your own personal grasping around at what you may sense as being a Mightier Being to Whom you feel Accountable.

Well, He says he does, but then again, love does not persecute, love protects. In the Christian Bible, one of the facets that is God is shown as is a violent being. In one instance He says, "I am an angry God." In another, "I am a jealous God." And in yet another instance, "You send forth Your burning anger, and it consumes them as chaff." What is God so angry and jealous at, regarding His very own creation? This is His own creation doing exactly as He knew from infinity they would do.

Context of God's Anger:

• • Driven by Justice: Biblical Theology describes God's Anger not as a reckless human temper, but as a Holy, Measured Response to injustice, evil, and oppression. [1, 2]
  • Slow to Anger: Scripture repeatedly pairs God's Capacity for Wrath with His Primary Attribute of being "Slow to Anger and Abounding in Steadfast Love" (e.g., Psalm 103:8). [1, 2]

Google Search

The extensive articles differentiate in detail the difference between: The Love of God
and: The Anger of God & the Wrath of God & The Hatred of God, for anyone who may actually be interested.

This is His own creation doing exactly as He knew from infinity they would do.

God Knew from Infinity that Adam and all of Adam's Posterity in their entirety would become sinners and that they would ALL DESERVE TO BE PUNISHED ETERNALLY, BECAUSE THEIR SINS AGAINST HIM ARE ETERNAL, i.e., THEIR OWN NATURAL PERSONAL HABITS, AND PRACTICES OF SINFUL BEHAVIOR THAT ARE AN ETERNAL AFFRONT TO HIS ETERNAL HOLINESS AND ESSENCE, as their Creator God.

If there is something you don't like about Him, you're on your own, until, as the Bible says;

"we know that what things soever the Law saith, it saith to them who are under the Law:
that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become Guilty before God", Romans 3:19.

So, "ALL 'the world' may become Guilty before God",

and as we see in Philippians 2:9; "Wherefore God also hath Highly Exalted Him,
and Given Him a Name which is above every name:

10; "That at the Name of Jesus every knee should bow,
of things in Heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

11; "And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the Glory of God the Father."

Every Individual of Mankind, including you of course, will have their "mouth" "stopped", and they will "bow" their "knee" and "EVERY TONGUE" WILL "confess" that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the Glory of God the Father."

 

[irmadlad]

The same Inspired Writer in I John 2:15 said,
"Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world.
If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him."

We can't just pluck a word out of the Bible and assume we have God's Understanding of what He has Said, as if we have the Mind of God, when other places the word may have various other meanings fully Intended by God, instead, in context.

"...not every man in the world is here meant, or all the individuals of human nature; for all are not the objects of God's special Love, which is here designed, as appears from the instance and evidence of it, the Gift of His Son:

"nor is Christ God's Gift to every one; for to whomsoever He gives His Son, He Gives all things freely with Him; which is not the case of every man."

But, by "the world";

"...the Gentiles particularly, and God's elect among them, are meant; who are often called "the world", and "the whole world", and "the nations of the world", as distinct from the Jews; see Romans 11:12, compared with Matthew 6:32.

(The Bible, in Romans 11:12 EQUATES "the World" with "the Gentiles".

"The Jews had the same distinction we have now, the church and the world; the former they took to themselves, and the latter they gave to all the nations around: hence we often meet with this distinction, Israel, and the nations of the world; on those words, (of the Jews

""let them bring forth their witness", that they may be justified, Isaiah 43:9 (say (b) the doctors) these are Israel; "or let them hear and say it is truth", these are "the nations of the world".''

"And again (c),

"the Holy, Blessed God said to Israel, when I judge Israel, I do not judge them as "the nations of the world":''

"and so in a multitude of places: and it should be observed, that our Lord was now discoursing with a Jewish Rabbi, and that he is opposing a commonly received notion of theirs, that when the Messiah came, the Gentiles should have no benefit or advantage by him, only the Israelites; so far should they be from it, that, according to their sense, the most dreadful judgments, calamities, and curses, should befall them; yea, hell and eternal damnation.

"There is a place (they say (d),) the name of which is "Hadrach", Zechariah 9:1. This is the King Messiah, who is, , "sharp and tender"; sharp to "the nations", and tender to "Israel".''

"And so of the "sun of righteousness", in Malachi 4:2, they say (e),

"there is healing for the Israelites in it: but the idolatrous nations shall be burnt by it.''

"And that (f).

"there is mercy for Israel, but judgment for the rest of the nations.''

"And on those words in Isaiah 21:12, "the morning cometh", and also the night, they observe (g),

"the morning is for the righteous, and the night for the wicked; the morning is for Israel, and the night for "the nations of the world".''

"And again (h),

"in the time to come, (the times of the Messiah,) the holy, blessed God will bring "darkness" upon "the nations", and will enlighten Israel, as it is said, Isaiah 60:2.''

"Once more (i),

"in the time to come, the holy, blessed God will bring the nations of the world, and will cast them into the midst of hell under the Israelites, as it is said, Isaiah 43:3.''

"To which may be added that denunciation of theirs (k).

"woe to the nations of the world, who perish, and they know not that they perish: in the time that the sanctuary was standing, the altar atoned for them; but now who shall atone for them?''

"Now, in opposition to such a notion, our Lord addresses this Jew; and 'it is as if' He had said,

"you Rabbins say, that when the Messiah comes, only the Israelites, 'the peculiar favorites of God', shall share in the Blessings that come by, and with Him; and that the Gentiles shall reap no advantage by Him, being hated of God, and rejected of Him: but I tell you,

God has so Loved the Gentiles, as well as the Jews,"

"that He Gave His Only Begotten Son,
that whosoever believeth in Him (from amoung the Gentiles as well as the Jews)
should not Perish, but have Everlasting Life."

That's the meaning of the verse, in John 3:16.

(b) T. Bab. Avoda Zara, fol. 2. 1.
(c) Ib. fol. 4. 1. Vid. T. Bab. Sanhedrin, fol. 91. 2. & Bereshit Rabba, fol. 11. 3.
((d) Shirhashirim Rabba, fol. 24. 1. Jarchi & Kimchi in Zech. ix. 1.
((e) Zohar in Gen. fol. 112. 2.
((f) Zohar in Exod. fol. 15. 1, 2.
((g) T. Hieros. Taaniot, fol. 64. 1.
((h) Shemot Rabba, sect. 14. fol. 99. 4.
(i) Ib sect. 11. fol. 98. 3.
((k) T. Bab. Succa, fol. 55. 2.

John 3 Gill's Exposition

"You Must Be Born Again," John 3:7b.



You are using the same wild, rash, guesswork in saying, "There are probably hundreds of such references in the Christian Bible" that you used to assume "the world", in John 3:16, refers to every individual of Mankind.

God DOES NOT "LOVE" every individual of Mankind, or every individual of Mankind would be Saved, and those who are Suffering now in Hell wouldn't have been Sent there, Forever, to be Tormented as Punishment for their personal sins THAT GOD HATES and which will NEVER ENTER GOD'S HEAVEN.

RE: We can't just pluck a word out of the Bible and assume we have God's Understanding of what He has Said, as if we have the Mind of God, when other places the word may have various other meanings fully Intended by God, instead, in context.

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness

All means all. Every last comma, period, et al.

RE: You are using the same wild, rash, guesswork in saying, "There are probably hundreds of such references in the Christian Bible" that you used to assume "the world", in John 3:16, refers to every individual of Mankind.

Would you like a rather long list of references to God loving all?

RE: God DOES NOT "LOVE" every individual of Mankind, or every individual of Mankind would be Saved, and those who are Suffering now in Hell wouldn't have been Sent there, Forever, to be Tormented as Punishment for their personal sins THAT GOD HATES and which will NEVER ENTER GOD'S HEAVEN.

'for their personal sins THAT GOD HATE'. Yes the Bible does say that God hates sin. Which is rather wild that he created the very mechanism that allowed sin to enter this would. However, the Bible does indicate that He loves all. There's a difference between the person and their sin.

RE: That's the meaning of the verse, in John 3:16.
RE: as if we have the Mind of God

You seem rather quick to speak the mind of God, and give citations of others who seem to speak for the mind of God. How is it you have these special powers?

RE: or every individual of Mankind would be Saved

Now we're almost on the same page.

 

[Alan Dale Gross]

RE: Adam was Given the Ability to choose one thing over another and he did.

Once again, free will is incompatible with the structure of infallible knowledge.

The gratuitous assertion fallacy is so Infinitely far from the mark that it needs clarification.

Who in the world came up with the assumption, "free will is incompatible with the structure of infallible knowledge"?
and what on earth do you think you are supposed to mean by condescending down to say such a goofy thing?

If He knows all, and all means all,

God Knows "all" and in this case, "all" means "all", but that can never be said to be true, as an across the board, generalization.

and if he knows the beginning from the end, then He knows each and every thing that will happen.

And God does Know "the beginning from the end" and "He knows each and every thing that will happen", Perfectly.

For Instance, when the Bible says, in Genesis 2:6,7,
"in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die,"
IT IS A PROPHECY REVEALING TO ADAM WHAT GOD ALREADY KNEW.

It wasn't a threat or guesswork.

"the LORD God Commanded the man, saying,
Of every Tree of the Garden thou mayest freely eat:

17; "But of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, thou shalt not eat of it:
because in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."

For instance: the book of Revelation is not presented as a warning or a possibility tree. It's presented as what will happen. John isn't told, "here's what might occur if things continue." He's shown what must take place. The very structure of apocalyptic literature in the Biblical tradition is one of certainty, not contingency. "Write therefore what you have seen, what is now, and what will take place later."

"He that hath an ear, let him Hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.." in Revelation 3:22 is Speaking of all those things described in the Book of Revelation, as having begun then, and are taking place now, until Jesus Comes Again and Separates the goats from the sheep, at The End of Time.

No matter what transpires between Genesis 1:1 and whenever Revelations kicks off, Revelations happens. It's set in stone. Fixed by the very structure of infallible knowledge. You can't have it any other way.

No one is trying to have it any other way. God has Revealed in the Book of Revelation what has, is, and will happen.

You cannot stick a 'but' in between 'without' and 'limitations'.

You have a Man-made, Infinitely short-sighted philosophy, which attempts to create a strawman of a false god that is in a box of your own making and, in no way, even begins to be an accurate, all inclusive, Characterization of the Attributes of God for you to think you have wrapped your head around the Infinite God of the Universe and backed Him into a corner by making your suggestion of a conjunction, "but", being required between your fancy illusion of His Operation among men.

You cannot say 'Well, he knows all, but...'

God Knows all. And, if you have a problem with it, you have a problem with your Creator.

As soon as you do, He ceases to be without limitations and therefore ceases to be God.

God can do all things, except those things has Determined to Not Do, to Maintain His Perfect Holiness;

Hebrews 6:17; "Wherein God,
Willing more Abundantly to Shew unto the Heirs of Promise
the Immutability of His Counsel, confirmed it by an Oath:

18; "That by two Immutable things",
(God's Counsel and Oath, which never change and alter, and from which he never varies
"in which it was Impossible for God to lie, (etc.)
we might have a Strong Consolation,
who have fled for Refuge to lay hold upon the Hope set before us:

19; "Which Hope we have as an Anchor of the soul, both Sure and Stedfast,
and which Entereth into that within the Veil;

20; "Whither the Forerunner is for us Entered, even Jesus,
made an High Priest forever after the order of Melchisedec."

 

[Alan Dale Gross]

RE: I hope you're not trying to exalt a Doomed enemy of God, as if God couldn't have done without him. With the '2.0'. No, no 'plan 2.0' Without the '2.0' being meant to have been put in there, Apparently.

I'm not trying to be hypercritical here, and it's probably my inability to follow along with what you are saying, However, could you unpack some of this for me. I am sure it made sense when you typed it. Perhaps my Dick Tracy decoder ring is malfunctioning.

Was your typing out "Lucifer 2.0" intentional?

 

[irmadlad]

RE: God Knows "all" and in this case, "all" means "all",

We're getting somewhere now.

RE: but that can never be said to be true, as an across the board, generalization.

Really? So, what part of 'all' are you misunderstanding? When does a God without limitations, who knows all, sees all, is all, created all; seen and unseen, not know all?

RE: IT IS A PROPHECY REVEALING TO ADAM WHAT GOD ALREADY KNEW.

Again, we're getting somewhere.

RE: God can do all things, except those things (He) has Determined to Not Do, to Maintain His Perfect Holiness;

My edit for clarity (He). So, God can do all things, but.....( or except to use your word)? If you can do all things and all means all, there is no exception.

RE: God Knows all.

I'll just use the first part of that sentence, because the rest borders on inflammatory. We finally agree on something. Infallible knowledge. And if God knows all, then he knows who will go to eternal reward and who will go to eternal damnation. It's very simple. All means all. Not just some. When God opens the Book of Life, do you think the contents of that doccument will be a surprise? Absolutely not, if he He is without limitations. And when did He have this knowledge? An hour before He opens the Book of Life? No, he He has known forever, infinity, eternity. God does not learn sequentially as mankind does.

RE: Was your typing out "Lucifer 2.0" intentional?

Absolutely intentional. The question was: Did Lucifer have free will, and if he did, would God have had to make a Lucifer 2.0 to complete the rest of the Biblical story. Now, I realize that in the context of this discussion, that God can do all. He didn't have to create Lucifer. He didn't have to create a world for that matter, which might not have been a bad idea. But the fact according to the Biblical narrative, He did create Lucifer. Without Lucifer, again according to the Biblical narrative, the rest falls apart. There would be no sin, no suffering, no torment. And again I will say, it wasn't Adam's disobedience, it wasn't Lucifer's rebellion. It was a Creator God, who concocted this whole ball of wax. It's not that evil snuck in despite God's plan. It was baked into the plan from before the foundation of the world, by an omniscient Creator who knew exactly what He was building

 

[Mike B]

Well over 50% of those days have heard me screaming into the void at God, Allah, Ganesha, or whatever is out there to reveal themselves/itself. The void does not answer. There's not much more I could do in earnest. I fully admit something happened way back when.

I am presuming you must be speaking figuratively, because if you were screaming at me I would
ignore you, too.

Consider that you are approaching the throne of the One who made all things; you, me, the universe.
We are among the billions of people on Earth; He gave us life, and God doesn't owe us diddly-squat,
yet, He gave His only Son so that we might have eternal fellowship with Him. THAT is a love unlike any other.

Approach Him with sincere humility, and give Him the reverence and respect He deserves. God is not going to
scream back at you...you need to listen for that quiet voice...the one telling you "I AM".

**************************

I have no doubt that you are quite capable of arguing/debating/discussing all the theological viewpoints until
the end of time............. or, you can set all that aside, and respectfully approach the throne of God, and seek His
will and wisdom.

That is my most sincere prayer for you.

 

[irmadlad]

I am presuming you must be speaking figuratively, because if you were screaming at me I would
ignore you, too.

Consider that you are approaching the throne of the One who made all things; you, me, the universe.
We are among the billions of people on Earth; He gave us life, and God doesn't owe us diddly-squat,
yet, He gave His only Son so that we might have eternal fellowship with Him. THAT is a love unlike any other.

Approach Him with sincere humility, and give Him the reverence and respect He deserves. God is not going to
scream back at you...you need to listen for that quiet voice...the one telling you "I AM".

**************************

I have no doubt that you are quite capable of arguing/debating/discussing all the theological viewpoints until
the end of time............. or, you can set all that aside, and respectfully approach the throne of God, and seek His
will and wisdom.

That is my most sincere prayer for you.

RE: I am presuming you must be speaking figuratively,

Sometimes yes, sometimes no.

RE: because if you were screaming at me I would ignore you, too.

Mike, you are not a God without limitations who created all, says he loves all, and wants all not to perish, and even sent Himself to die for the sins of all mankind, but was the entity that introduced sin into the equation. That's kind of the problem with making human-to-God analogies.

RE: . THAT is a love unlike any other.

Yes, Agape, or so it's identified. Agape is unconditional, sacrificial, self-giving love. Perfect. Divine. If agape is truly unconditional, then:

Why are there conditions attached to salvation? ("Believe or perish"). Why is punishment eternal? (Infinite consequences for finite acts). Why is there violence in scripture? (Genesis 6–9, Joshua conquests, etc.)

It's been a pleasure talking to you Mike. I wish you well and thanks for all the fish.