Husband of one Wife

[El_Guero]

But, God's clear Word is still His Word ... "Husband of one Wife" is still the clearest and simplest reading of the GREEK text.

 

[ILUVLIGHT]

Hi Scott J;
This is what we are discussing on this thread.

1 Timothy 3:2 "A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;"

No polygamy? Or no divorce?

Something I still struggle with, both sides of the coin have an equal pull on me. Am I missing something?

This is not what we are discussing on this thread.

Neither you nor EG nor anyone else has established from scripture that a deacon cannot have a divorce in their past.

I always thought that there is a distinction between a bishop and a deacon.
How ever divorce is still against the will of God. Divorce is the result of the lack of real Love. One must Love in order to forgive. The type of Love is compassion. If one Loves there spouse as in 1st Cor 13 then one or the other is guilty of an unforgiving heart. Usually the one who will not forgive the other is the one seeking divorce. This holds true for everyone not just bishops or deacons. If we will not forgive then we will not be forgiven. This makes it sin because we are commanded to forgive. Not to mention that once married we have become one. If you marry another what are you then, one and a half?

Only if the ridicule comes because you are right. You have not established that you are...

This is only your opinion and I have mine. My opinion is that you neglect to see that divorce comes from the lack of the Love needed to forgive. You refuse to see being unforgiving as the sin that it is the responsibility of the divorce in the first place. If we forgive truly there would be no need to abolish what God has put together, one flesh. Moses granted divorce because of the hardness of mens hearts. That hardness could only have been unforgiveness. Christ said that this action was Moses' not God's
The prove youy claim I don't have;
1Ti 3:12 Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.

Who are you to make such a judgment? I haven't seen Larry say anything to you that would warrant such a charge. If disagreeing with you causes this kind of venom then perhaps you should evaluate yourself before judging Larry.

Your defense of Larry doesn't included my defense as well how unfair.

Two things. One, marriage is more than "love". It is a covenant. Jesus and Paul established cases where violations of that covenant justify divorce. This has nothing to do with the choice of whether to love or not and everything to do with trust and commitment- the covenant.

Your argument is without merit.

Second, the exceptions have to do with protecting the offended party. Just because a man continues to love his wife and intends to fulfill his obligation to the covenant he made doesn't mean that she will ever re-commit to him nor does it prevent her from divorcing him and marrying another (and vice versa for the wife).

There are no exceptions to God's will according to your own doctrine of Calvinism. You just keep on defending sin

-Divorce is not the unpardonable sin.

True but unforgiveness will not be forgiven.
Mat 6:15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
It's really sad that men have to have it there own way instead of God's way.
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by El_Guero:
But, God's clear Word is still His Word ... "Husband of one Wife" is still the clearest and simplest reading of the GREEK text.

Do you have a proof or reason for contending this other than the feeling that it strengthens your position in this debate?

The best reading is the most literal one unless there is a clear reason why it should not be preferred. "One woman man" includes but is not limited to "husband of one wife".

Are you saying that a man can be married only once and qualify no matter what the rest of his sexual character is like? If no, then what do you base that answer on. A man can certainly be a "husband of one wife" and not be a "one woman man".

You all have constantly tried to claim the high ground... but have failed. "One woman man" regardless of whether you think that discludes divorce or not, is a much higher standard than "husband of one wife".

Have it your way... according to Deut divorce ends a marriage therefore a divorced and remarried man is literally the "husband of one wife" since he is no longer married to the first wife. The Bible says so.

 

[Dr. Bob]

But, God's clear Word is still His Word ... "Husband of one Wife" is still the clearest and simplest reading of the GREEK text.

No it isn't. As stated earlier, "one woman man" is the simplest reading. To force a "divorce" concept into this passage is horrid hermeneutic that would not be tolerated by conservatives elsewhere.

The Scripture IS clear of details, exceptions and policies on divorce and remarriage. It is our culture from the past century of man-made "rules" that are NOT stated in Scriptures (examples: no alcohol, no movies, no smoking) that is being shown as bankrupt.

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by ILUVLIGHT:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Two things. One, marriage is more than "love". It is a covenant. Jesus and Paul established cases where violations of that covenant justify divorce. This has nothing to do with the choice of whether to love or not and everything to do with trust and commitment- the covenant.

Your argument is without merit.</font>[/QUOTE] Based on what? Because you say so? Because you can't actually answer it and it undermines your opinion?

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Second, the exceptions have to do with protecting the offended party. Just because a man continues to love his wife and intends to fulfill his obligation to the covenant he made doesn't mean that she will ever re-commit to him nor does it prevent her from divorcing him and marrying another (and vice versa for the wife).

There are no exceptions to God's will according to your own doctrine of Calvinism. You just keep on defending sin </font>[/QUOTE] You make it apparent once again that you don't understand calvinism... or what I believe.

None the less, Jesus and Paul gave exceptions for divorce to end the covenant of marriage.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> -Divorce is not the unpardonable sin.

True but unforgiveness will not be forgiven.</font>[/QUOTE] As I said and you avoided without rebuttal, marriage is about more than love. Marriage is a covenant that can be broken. Jesus and Paul gave reasons for which the offended party could divorce someone who had violated that covenant.

This doesn't mean that they are not still to forgive. It simply means that a person doesn't have to remain bound to someone who violates that sacred covenant.

It's really sad that men have to have it there own way instead of God's way.

I agree completely. I don't understand why you all persist in wanting to add your word to His or worse replace His Word with yours. I don't think you recognize that you are doing it but it seems that you are.

Right after Jesus mentioned hardness of heart, He gave the fornication exception for divorce. He has answered your question.

I am being very serious here. God's Word says something. We don't have a right to go beyond what He said even if we think we are being more "conservative".

 

[AVL1984]

Originally posted by ILUVLIGHT:
AVL1984;
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> ILUVLIGHT, for one, I'm not going to continue to converse with someone who can only make petty attacks because of their lack of ability to answer.

One could only hope for an end to your demeaning comments.
Accussing me of what you are most guilty of.

Your answer "from scripture" was not only twisted, but is not even close to being hermeneutically correct. You have NO backing from scripture, nor do you have any backing in statistics.

I did not twist scripture. Your reading of it is twisted.
I can't help it if you lack the maturity to understand mature thought. I should know better than to give meat to a child

I think it's about time you grew up, bought a hermaneutics book, and learned how to rightly divide God's Word, young'un!

Thankyou for calling me young'un. Although we can all tell that you don't know what you're talking about.
The rest of your statement is rather ridiculous.
since you were saved in 1983 at the Maranatha Bible Baptist Church. You have left your first love for Calvinism. Bible Baptist are not Calvinist at least the one I go to isn't. You demand statistics for which I never claimed I had any and then you failed to understand the basics of Love.
Your wonderful comand of the English language is shocking to say the least

And it was your major

Why not go ahead a blow off steam, it might make you feel better.
It really would be great if you really abided by your owns words;

I'm not going to continue to converse

That would really make me happy.
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike

</font>[/QUOTE]Still Mike, I see you have no substantive answers, just attacks. Your understanding of "love" isn't all it should be, friend. Love doesn't always make perfect. Love doesn't always stay non offensive. Love also doesn't mean that something will not happen along the way that will lead to a divorce/separation.

So, I was saved in 1983 @ MBBC. What of it? I was in college long before I went to MBBC. And I'd like you to prove I'm a "Calvinist", and any other accusation you've made against me.

 

[Scott J]

I always thought that there is a distinction between a bishop and a deacon.

There is but in this case God gave the same requirement concerning being a "one woman man".

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by ILUVLIGHT:
This is God's will;
Mat 19:4 And he answered and said, Have ye not read, that he who made them from the beginning made them male and female,
Mat 19:5 and said, For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife; and the two shall become one flesh?
Mat 19:6 So that they are no more two, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.

You stopped righte before Christ says you are wrong. That's telling isn't it ...

The separation of the one flesh is not His desire but mans, this is obvious.

Without a doubt. I have said this for a very long time.

You say it's because of the hardness of there hearts they get divorced. What do you suppose he is talking about? Hardness of heart is the results of the lack of real Love. There hearts are hard because they refuse to forgive. If you truly love that person in the first place you'll forgive them.

You are exactly backwards. They refuse to forgive and love because their hearts are hard. The hardness of heart is what causes disobedience.

But even at that, forgiveness does not always save the marriage.

If your wife were to cheat on you and you couldn't find it in your heart to forgive her in order to save your marriage, (because if you did it would) then you Father in heaven wouldn't forgive you. To deny this is to deny scripture.

Bad on numerous points. First, if my wife were to cheat and I forgive her, she still has to be willing to be reconciled. If I forgive and she is not willing to reconcile, I can't save the marriage. (Is there an echo in here???? I already said this several times).

Second, the verse about forgiveness is indicating the nature of true salvation. But in this particular case, the point is that people who have learned forgiveness from God practice forgiveness.

I've been reading your post for all most two years.

That's pretty impossible since you haven't been here that long. But it is really irrelevant to marriage and divorce.

This is why I don't believe you understand Love. Paul gave the most perfect description of it, I have ever read. You know where it is I would encourage you to study it intensely especially these verses.

I have studied those verses many times and committed them to memory. So what? I have said nothing here in contradiction to that. If you have read my posts for "almost two years" then you know well that I have said many many times that forgiveness is always the right response. I don't know any possible basis why you would think I don't understand love. Why not tell us why?

It's OK Larry I forgive you.

For what?? I didn't do anything for you to forgive me for.

Most of us know you think everyone else is ignorant.

That's not true.

That title of Pastor doesn't give you any special revelation or insight.

That is true.

In fact you're not any more right than any layman.

It depends. When the laymen come up with positions that aren't in Scripture, and I hold the Scriptural position, I am always more right than they are. When they come up with the scriptural position and I don't hold it, they are more right than I. Being right doesn't come with a title. It comes with conformity to Scripture. Everyone is wrong when they do not say what Scripture says.

I'm sure there are laymen here who knows much more than you do about scripture, and may even be more dedicated than you.

I wouldn't doubt that in the least. But so what? Do you really think I am the topic of discussion here?

All those with whom you disagree with, are always ignorant of the truth according to you.[/qutoe]In many cases they are. I myself am ignorant of many things I make no pretense of knowing everything, even about theology. This particular situation is an area where good men differ and if someone differs from me, I am fine with that. But don't accuse me of not believing the Bible, or of cheapening marriage. Those are inappropriate comments.

You have one verse that you can manipulate others to your view with. Your failure to take scripture as a whole is why you have such a dim view.

REally?? I have dealt substnatively with every single passage on divorce in Scripture, starting in Deut and going right through to 1 Cor 7. I doubt that you have done that. You should ... But I am curious as to which verse I have used to manipulate others? I haven't even focused on one verse.

You discount the will of God for your good pleasure.

Really? How so? Where I am getting pleasure here? And where have I discounted the will of God?

I just wonder have you been married more than once?

Why would you wonder that? What difference does it make?

If so this would explain a lot about where you are coming from.

It could, but that is irrelevant. Correct theology is not determined by experience but by the text of Scripture. I am willing to deal with the text. Unfortunately, you spent a lot of time attacking me here rather than dealing with the text of Scripture. Why?

[qb]May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;

[//qb]He already has. In matt 19, he said that if you are divorced for adultery it is not sin to remarry. In 1 Cor 7, he said if you are divorced because an unbelieving spouse deserts you that you are not bound. Those seem like some pretty clear light. They are good enough for me.

Lest any of you get lost in Mike's nonsense, let me again state my position.

1. God intended marriage to be one man and one woman for life.
2. Divorce is always the result of sin, and sometimes is sin.
3. Divorce is a concession to the hardness of men's hearts.
4. Divorce ends a marriage, as indicated in both the OT and NT.
5. If a person is divorced, they may be a candidate for remarriage. They may not be.

I do not condone divorce. I do not recommend divorce. Divorce is always a bad end.

Mike, deal with Scripture if you like. Don't say silly stuff about me.

 

[ILUVLIGHT]

Hi Larry;

You stopped righte before Christ says you are wrong. That's telling isn't it ...

Fair enough lets take a look at it.
Mat 19:9 And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.
Your problem here is your talking adultry I'm talking forgiveness. Are you claiming that man should never forgive if there spouse commits adultry?
There are more than one sin that applies here and you refuse to see it.
I hate divorce because it always about the ego of one or the other. Adultry is about the same thing, It's about the me me me attitude self.

When a man can explain that they can divorce and remarry and claim it be sinnless then it has to be about themselves.
Love is selfless. always placing the other ahead of your self. Any thing that is so self centered is always sin. This then effect is the worship of self not God;

Mike, deal with Scripture if you like. Don't say silly stuff about me.

Define silly.
This was the original subject

1 Timothy 3:2 "A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;"

And you haven't proven a man is blameless if he has been married more than once.
Why isn't a bishop considerd blameless if he has been married more than once? I mean even if His divorce was for adultry and his wife was the guilty. Does this mean the bishop is innocent? I don't think so because like you say Larry it takes two.
On One hand we have the adultry and on the other we can have a host of different reasons submission is one manipulation is another.Unforgiveness is the biggest.

Love is most important in a marriage with out which the marriage has failed before it gets started. Most people can't even define LOVE. So how can they possibly understand it.

The Love of God is perfect just exactly as said it is in 1st Cor 13. Yet in other discussions you have shown me that you don't believe there is perfect Love. This is why I said I don't believe you understand it. I'm still not convinced
Yes Christ Has shown His light but you didn't see the unforgiveness and still don't.
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike

 

[ILUVLIGHT]

Hi AVL1984;

Still Mike, I see you have no substantive answers, just attacks.

attacks of ideas yes that is what debate is about. I disagree that a man can be innocent in a divorce where his wife has cheated on him. that irritates you doesn't it?

Love doesn't always make perfect. Love doesn't always stay non offensive. Love also doesn't mean that something will not happen along the way that will lead to a divorce/separation.

what part of this verse that you don't believe Love is?
1Co 13:5 doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not its own, is not provoked, taketh not account of evil;

How about this one little phrase;

1Co 13:8 Love never faileth:
If your love faileth then it isn't Love. Do you think Love is only part of this?

What parts of Love makes it Love at all?

And I'd like you to prove I'm a "Calvinist",

I stand corrected Please forgive me?

I have no excuse I don't know why I assumed that you were a Calvinist.
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by ILUVLIGHT:
Your problem here is your talking adultry I'm talking forgiveness. Are you claiming that man should never forgive if there spouse commits adultry?

I have answered that several times already. Did you read my post immediately above?

There are more than one sin that applies here and you refuse to see it.

REally? And what sin is that?

I hate divorce because it always about the ego of one or the other.

I hate divorce because it is tearing about a home and a marriage before God. Who cares about ego? That is a side issue to the real problem.

When a man can explain that they can divorce and remarry and claim it be sinnless then it has to be about themselves.

Why is that?

Love is selfless. always placing the other ahead of your self. Any thing that is so self centered is always sin. This then effect is the worship of self not God;

This is true, but doesn't really have much to do with the thread here. Perhaps you can start a thread on this if you like.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Mike, deal with Scripture if you like. Don't say silly stuff about me.

Define silly.</font>[/QUOTE]Stuff like I don't believe the Bible, and don't understand love. Stuff like I ignore passages of Scripture.

This was the original subject

Finally.

And you haven't proven a man is blameless if he has been married more than once.

I am not sure I need to prove that, but I already gave a scenario in which a divorced man could be considered blameless.

Why isn't a bishop considerd blameless if he has been married more than once?

It depends on the circumstances. A man whose wife dies and then he remarries is not the "husband of one wife." He has two wives.

I mean even if His divorce was for adultry and his wife was the guilty. Does this mean the bishop is innocent? I don't think so because like you say Larry it takes two.

No, it takes two to make a marriage. It only takes one to go out and commit adultery. If she was the guilty party, then he is innocent of adultery.

Yet in other discussions you have shown me that you don't believe there is perfect Love.

Really? And in what conversation was that?

=Yes Christ Has shown His light but you didn't see the unforgiveness and still don't.

Where did I not see unforgiveness??? I am not even talking about that. I have conclusively put any questions about what I think about forgiveness to rest.

I think you are missing my entire point. I believe "husband of one wife" is inadequate for precisely the opposite reason that you are accusing me of. I believe it is inadequate because the "husband of one wife" can be an adulterer, or a womanizer, or a flirt. And if his wife forgives and stays with him, he is still the husband of one wife, and he is still qualified for ministry, if you think "husband of one wife" was what Paul intended.

I think Paul intended something else ... namely, a man characterized by sexual integrity ... a "one woman man." I believe that, strangely enough, because that is what he said.

All divorced people are not guilty of the sin that caused the divorce. You need to understand that. That doesn't mean they are qualified to pastor. They may, or may not be. My presumption is that they are not qualified to pastor.

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by ILUVLIGHT:

Your problem here is your talking adultry I'm talking forgiveness. Are you claiming that man should never forgive if there spouse commits adultry?

You should always forgive any sin committed against you. That however does not mean that the marriage is reconcilable. The guilty party may not want to reconcile.

You still haven't dealt with the covenant aspect of marriage. A marriage is a joint declaration of unity and fidelity. Marriage, especially in biblical days, didn't always include "love" the way we view it now. It did include trust and commitment though.

When someone violates this sacred covenant by fornication or abandonment, the Bible says divorce is an option without guilt on the part of the offended party. Paul's example was acceptance of the decision of an unbelieving spouse.

Jesus' example was an active decision on the part of the offended party. In context, He declared that you could put away a wife for fornication. That plainly means that they fornicate and you divorce them since they violated the marriage contract.

 

[Dr. Bob]

The exception clause (by rule of grammar) affects every part of the sentence by Jesus. This is what is conveniently overlooked in the anti-divorce rhetoric.

Summary:
Whosoever divorces his wife (except in the case of sexual sin)

Causes her to commit adultery (except in the case of sexual sin)

And whoever should marry this divorced wife also commits adultery (except in the case of sexual sin)

Therefore:
1. Except in cases of sexual sin, whoever divorces a woman forces HER into adultery (assuming she marries)

2. Except in cases of sexual sin, whoever marries such a divorced woman ALSO commits adultery.

WHAT ON EARTH DOES THIS HAVE TO DO WITH PASTORS? Simple. If the "exception" clause is NOT valid, then the woman/man are NOT above reproach but are guilty of sin.

I would not want a pastor who was divorced or married to a divorced woman unless it could be proven 100% that the "exception" clause was in the equation.

 

[Scott J]

And you haven't proven a man is blameless if he has been married more than once.

You haven't proven that a man is blameless if he fails to pray as he should or has ever stolen anything or ever told a lie or ever been drunk or ever fantasized about someone other than his wife or ever flirted with someone after marriage or ever engaged in any kind of sexual behavior before marriage (whether consummated by intercourse or not)....

Blameless can mean alot of things if you want it to cover a person's whole life.

 

[Lacy Evans]

ScottJ,

I admire your tenacity. You are one tough dude. Sic 'em.

Lacy

 

[ILUVLIGHT]

Larry;
We disagree on just about everthing. especially about perfect Love;
Love is Love it either has the qualities of Love or it is something else.
My Savior Loves me and forgives every time I confess my sins. He died for my sin with out me ever asking for forgiveness. We are instructed by Paul that, we are to love our wives as Christ loves the Church. However I believe we are also to Love our brothers and sisters with equal fervor. Christ instructed Peter to forgive his brother an infinite amount of times.
For myself I have to forgive any one who ask even if they don't ask. When they don't ask I forgive them any way if not for them for my self and my own peace of mind.
Unforgiveness is hatred and it can destroy a mans heart so fast.
Forgiveness is a wonderful expression of real Love.
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike

 

[Pastor Larry]

So what do I disagree with in that?

 

[AVL1984]

Hi AVL1984;

quote: Still Mike, I see you have no substantive answers, just attacks.

Mike says: attacks of ideas yes that is what debate is about.

AVL1984: You're not just attacking the ideas, but the people also. Though you try to veil that fact it is still a personal attack...not just on myself, but others as well. Attack the ideas if you must, but leave the personal attacks out of it.

Mike says: I disagree that a man can be innocent in a divorce where his wife has cheated on him.

AVL1984: Not necessarily so. Being the imperfect beings that we are, any one of us could be tempted and possibly fall prey to sin in our relationships. This does not prove that the injured party, being the male or female, is not the innocent party. I've dealt with many cases in the ministry where one party IS INDEED innocent while the other party is fully to blame and has acknowledged such. I'm dealing with three of these situations at the present. Granted, there are many (and it is probably a great majority of the cases) relationships where both parties share the blame as walls have been built on both sides, preventing effective communication and resolution of conflict in the relationship, and many times doing irreparable damage, leaving one or both parties feeling helpless to the point where they start seeking their happiness outside of their marriage relationship.

Mike says: that irritates you doesn't it?

No, Mike. What irritates me is the lack of hard facts, Biblical or scientific. Blanket statements and misinterpretation and misappropriation of the scriptures irritate me.

quote: Love doesn't always make perfect. Love doesn't always stay non offensive. Love also doesn't mean that something will not happen along the way that will lead to a divorce/separation.

Mike asks: what part of this verse that you don't believe Love is?

AVL1984: Okay, Mike..let's take this one by one:

1Co 13:5 doth not behave itself unseemly,

AVL1984:Mike, are you married? Have you ever behaved yourself inappropriately? If you have, then you're an exception to the rule. If you haven't, then do you/did you still love that person?

seeketh not its own,

AVL1984: Mike, have you put your own needs before the needs of others you love? If so, do you/did you still love this person?

is not provoked,

AVL1984: Mike, have you ever been angry with someone you love? If so, do or did you still love this person? Or is it negated because of your anger, even a split second of it!?

taketh not account of evil;

AVL1984: Mike, have you ever held a grudge against someone you love, even for a second? If so, do you/did you still love this person?

Mike says:How about this one little phrase;

AVL1984: Yes, let's dealve into that "little phrase", more appropriately known as scripture.

1Co 13:8 Love never faileth:
If your love faileth then it isn't Love. Do you think Love is only part of this?

AVL1984: God's love NEVER fails, but human love will, has and always will. Why? Because of the fall of man and the introduction of sin into this world. We can only strive to be what God wants and towards that ideal of perfect love. We will have perfect love when we are with Him in glory.

Mike asks: What parts of Love makes it Love at all?

AVL1984: Mike, this is a good question. Again..all we can do is strive to show love, in as Godly and as perfect a measure as we can as Christians.

quote: And I'd like you to prove I'm a "Calvinist",

Mike says: I stand corrected Please forgive me? [Embarrassed] I have no excuse I don't know why I assumed that you were a Calvinist.

AVL1984: Mike, I may be. Then again, I may not be. Either way, the accusation was unfounded and hurled in a moment of adrenaline rush. I know how that is, as I too, am guilty of the same. Your apology is definitely accepted, friend.

May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike [Smile]

Have a good day friend.