Hyles Anderson College under Schaap

[Tom Butler]

yeah, whatever dude !

I'm sorry, I just couldn't help reflecting on the intellectual depth of debate this quote represents.

 

[Tom Butler]

Do you believe this from http://www.hylesanderson.com/drhyles.php "This church has a membership of over 100,000 and averaged 10,000 baptisms per year for the last five years of his ministry."

That is 192+ baptisms per week. If one person baptized that many each week it would take over three hours to baptize one person every twenty seconds on the average.

Not only that, but what does it say when they have 100,000 members and build an auditorium that holds only 7500?

Even if you have six services and a full house each time, that's still less than half of the membership that shows up each on any Sunday.

 

[Broadus]

Oops! A clarification

I saw this resurrected thread and was chagrined to see I had written that I would send my daughters to HAC. Actually, I left out a three-letter word: not! Yes, I have an MEd from HAC, but I would not send my daughters there.

Blessings,
Bill

 

[bapmom]

Not only that, but what does it say when they have 100,000 members and build an auditorium that holds only 7500?

Even if you have six services and a full house each time, that's still less than half of the membership that shows up each on any Sunday.

to try to answer both of you.......there are more than one person baptizing each week......


Are you actually complaining that they haven't built an even bigger auditorium? You know, buildings take money, and they pay for their building projects. So it behooves them to only build what they can reasonably afford. They also have to abide by zoning laws which only allow them to build new buildings to a certain size. Still, I believe the full capacity of their new (church) auditorium is not only 7500 - it's got a full-size balcony on it as well. Perhaps you saw a reference to their old auditorium?
Or Perhaps, brother Tom, you saw a reference to the COLLEGE auditorium being big enough to hold 7500......their college is on a separate campus, about half an hour or so from the church campus. Now, if you want to talk about the church - there are actually TWO church auditoriums, both of which are used each Sunday and Wednesday (as well as other times throughout the weeks), and I believe both are MUCH bigger than 7500 capacity.

also, their Sunday School meets in about six different buildings (perhaps more, Ive not counted lately). They've got about a city-block's worth of buildings, all utilized for various purposes throughout the week. For the most part they are not brand-spanking new buildings, btw, they are pre-existing buildings which the church bought and renovated over the years in order to use for classrooms and offices and ministry areas. In fact, some of their buildings need some work, actually - also something which they are usually busy at trying to accomplish.

agree with them there or not, they are some of the hardest working people I've ever seen. And they are not running a po-dunk little operation over there while claiming "outrageous" numbers.

 

[Paul33]

Whew! I was wondering about that!

 

[bapmom]

I knew you were Paul..............


ya'all just don't seem to realize the scale of what goes on there at FBC Hammond and HAC. Now, Paul, some questioning remarks were made, and I thought I'd set the record straight, no need to get sarcastic about it.

So what is not understood is these people could and do easily see 192 baptisms each week. They've got 4 baptistries at their church, and they baptize every Saturday, every Sunday, and every Wednesday. Sometimes they baptize other places around the city, too, depending on where they might be having special meetings.

You're right, it's not a big deal to you......but someone else was wondering how these numbers could be true, and you really can't understand without actually seeing it or hearing from someone who has.

 

[Tom Butler]

Are you actually complaining that they haven't built an even bigger auditorium? You know, buildings take money, and they pay for their building projects. So it behooves them to only build what they can reasonably afford. They also have to abide by zoning laws which only allow them to build new buildings to a certain size. Still, I believe the full capacity of their new (church) auditorium is not only 7500 - it's got a full-size balcony on it as well. Perhaps you saw a reference to their old auditorium?

bapmom, I don't doubt the numbers at all. And I'm not complaining at all about the size of the auditorium.

I was basing my comment on the membership figure I read of 100,000. If that figure is wrong, it still doesn't change the point of my post. The point is, that few churches build auditoriums large enough to hold their entire membership because they don't have to. As a rule of thumb for most Baptist churches in America, only about 30-40% of members show up on any Sunday.

That's not only an indictment of FBC Hammond's evangelism methods, it's an indictment of most of our churches. It speaks of a pragmatism and easy believism which makes it so easy to get on a church roll and almost impossible short of dying to get off.

 

[bapmom]

but Tom, the whole point of both of your last two posts is negated by the fact that the 7500-capacity auditorium is not their church building-it must be their college auditorium if the number you quoted is correct.

Their newest CHURCH auditorium holds at least 10,000, and they have closed-circuit feeds wired up to their old church auditorium which is also utilized during services, plus closed-circuit feeds to various other buildings on the campus where you can watch the services each week.

I think the 100,000 number refers to Sunday School rolls......and the Sunday School rooms hold many many more, and they are not just on Sunday. It's all done at least twice each weekend - Saturday and Sunday, and they have offsite services as well.


I know what you're saying Tom, but FBC Hammond has no more of a discrepancy in their membership versus attendance than any other Baptist church does. It's sad, but I guess we just don't take people off our rolls because they haven't been there in a couple months. We also don't send them bills......

 

[Paul33]

I knew you were Paul..............


ya'all just don't seem to realize the scale of what goes on there at FBC Hammond and HAC. Now, Paul, some questioning remarks were made, and I thought I'd set the record straight, no need to get sarcastic about it.

Hey, why did you single me out! :tonofbricks:

 

[bapmom]

Hey, why did you single me out! :tonofbricks:

I wasn't trying to single you out with my whole post, if I took you wrong I apologize...........

 

[Tom Butler]

but Tom, the whole point of both of your last two posts is negated by the fact that the 7500-capacity auditorium is not their church building-it must be their college auditorium if the number you quoted is correct.

Their newest CHURCH auditorium holds at least 10,000, and they have closed-circuit feeds wired up to their old church auditorium which is also utilized during services, plus closed-circuit feeds to various other buildings on the campus where you can watch the services each week.

I think the 100,000 number refers to Sunday School rolls......and the Sunday School rooms hold many many more, and they are not just on Sunday. It's all done at least twice each weekend - Saturday and Sunday, and they have offsite services as well.


I know what you're saying Tom, but FBC Hammond has no more of a discrepancy in their membership versus attendance than any other Baptist church does. It's sad, but I guess we just don't take people off our rolls because they haven't been there in a couple months. We also don't send them bills......

I suppose you're right, bapmom. It would be interesting, though, to know a couple of things (which I should have asked before pontificating). How many members are on their roll? How many are there on any Sunday? And what percentage of their Sunday school enrollment attends? You're probably right, about the same as other Baptist churches. But such facts would clear up some things for me.

 

[Jnell]

????

Can I ask what false doctrines are being taught??????????

 

[Jnell]

Can I ask how Pastor Schaap has contradicted the word of God?

 

[paidagogos]

Marriage: The Divine Intimacy

Can I ask how Pastor Schaap has contradicted the word of God?

Did you ever read his book, Marriage: The Divine Intimacy? It contains blatant heresy and blasphemy in comparing the Lord’s Supper to the sex act between husband and wife. Furthermore, he ignorantly compares reading God’s Word with the sex act by completely mangling the meaning of “stuck” and “laid” in Psalms 119. This does violence to the Word of God.

Now, Schaap’s supporters say, “Well, that’s just his interpretation and everyone has a different interpretation.” HOGWASH! If so, this reduces the meaning of Scripture to nothing. Either it means one thing and not another or it means nothing! A lot of different interpretations, usually spawned by those from the allegorical school, does not prove anything. It simply means there are a lot of ignoramuses who twist Scripture to their own pitiful viewpoints.

The Apostle Peter warns, “As also in all [Paul's] epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction (II Peter 3:16).”

The intended meaning of Scripture was established when God inspired it and that meaning can never change. However, there may be implications and there may be many applications but there is only one meaning (i.e. interpretation)—all others are false.

Furthermore, Mr. Schaap’s credibility is questionable. His obvious self-aggrandizement is revolting. Is this the demeanor of a humble pastor? Look at his promotions, listen to his sermons and stories, watch the videos, etc. It is there for anyone with one eye to see and it is blatant self-exaltation. Take for example, the story he tells about his student days at Pillsbury. Good Christian folks, who were there during this time, say it didn’t happen the way Jack says. Whom will you believe? Listen to his stories and tell me in how many he is the hero and larger than life. I could go on………….. ad nauseam.

I have nothing against the man personally but I cannot defend his excesses done in the name of Christ because it appears self-serving and brings dishonor upon the precious name of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

 

[labaptist]

In a recent newsletter from Northwest Bible Baptist Church Keith Gomez (a HAC grad and founder of Providence Baptist College) refers to Schaap's teaching on communion as "blasphemy". Gomez is a IFB along the same lines as Schaap so even IFB's are having a problem with it.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Gomez and Schaap are in no way representative of IFB-dom. There are a great many who would reject their man-centered methods. Schaap is wrong on soteriology, following in the footsteps of Hyles. He is guilty of sloppy handling of hte Word in preaching. He was disobedient in tolerating and thereby encouraging the sin of Hyles both in his private life and in his public life.

 

[Preacher Boy88]

Okay, we got a lot of critical sewage to climb through here. I am currently a student at HAC and work for Dr. Ray Young and have personally met Dr. Jack Schaap. The point about the 100,000 membership is easily explained. From the time that you get saved and baptized at FBC, you are made a member unless you state that you don't want to be added to FBC's church roll. By the way, I work in the church Sailor Ministry snd we've had a handful of sailors ask not to be added to the roll. Also they have 11 inner city chapels that baptized every Sunday and they also become members after believer's baptism. Secondly, about Preacher's book on Marriage, get off your Blessed Assurance and write your own book about it. Quit getting carpal tunnel by writing critical posts and go win the world. Do something like my Preacher is doing and start a missions team in China, then start one in Ghana and then if you aren't too tuckered out, counsel 100 church members a week. Cotton pick man, listen to the heart and substance of a message rather than his illustrations and stories.

 

[IronWill]

Okay, we got a lot of critical sewage to climb through here. I am currently a student at HAC and work for Dr. Ray Young and have personally met Dr. Jack Schaap. The point about the 100,000 membership is easily explained. From the time that you get saved and baptized at FBC, you are made a member unless you state that you don't want to be added to FBC's church roll. By the way, I work in the church Sailor Ministry snd we've had a handful of sailors ask not to be added to the roll. Also they have 11 inner city chapels that baptized every Sunday and they also become members after believer's baptism. Secondly, about Preacher's book on Marriage, get off your Blessed Assurance and write your own book about it. Quit getting carpal tunnel by writing critical posts and go win the world. Do something like my Preacher is doing and start a missions team in China, then start one in Ghana and then if you aren't too tuckered out, counsel 100 church members a week. Cotton pick man, listen to the heart and substance of a message rather than his illustrations and stories.

There's not much substance in his messages. His book is borderline blasphemy. While Schaap is doing some things right, he's getting much more wrong.

 

[ccrobinson]

Secondly, about Preacher's book on Marriage, get off your Blessed Assurance and write your own book about it. Quit getting carpal tunnel by writing critical posts and go win the world.

You assume that anybody who writes a critical post isn't winning people and preaching the gospel. You have no basis to make such an assumption.

Do something like my Preacher is doing and start a missions team in China, then start one in Ghana and then if you aren't too tuckered out, counsel 100 church members a week.

So, it's Ok to write a book with bad doctrine in it as long as you're doing something else that's good. I assume the good is to offset the bad? When is this ever Ok?

Cotton pick man, listen to the heart and substance of a message rather than his illustrations and stories.

Odd thing to say. Do his illustrations and stories detract from his message?

 

[Pastor Larry]

The point about the 100,000 membership is easily explained. From the time that you get saved and baptized at FBC, you are made a member unless you state that you don't want to be added to FBC's church roll.

What exactly does this kind of membership mean? This is yet another area where FBC Hammond has departed from Scripture.

Cotton pick man, listen to the heart and substance of a message rather than his illustrations and stories.

If you don't listen to the illustrations and stories, there is no message left.