Hyles "enlightenment"

[free2know]

I just realized who this "Hyles" person is/was?.....

I am getting some good insights into this from the college thread......this is what my old IFB church was!!!!!!......and more, truly spiritually abusive.

I say that to say this, this board has been very personally enlightening to borrow a phrase. I am grateful to all for discussions on such issues. This has helped me resolve some issues and realize I truly made the right decision in leaving the old and moving on to the new.....I am still Baptist, I always will be, but now, I am Baptist living under grace, not legalism...thanks friends for helping me on this!!!!!!

 

[Dr. Bob]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

For we do not preach ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, and ourselves as your servants for Jesus' sake. For God, who said, "Let light shine out of darkness," made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>God bless you in your quest for the real "freedom in Christ". To come out of the bondage of abusive legalistic churches is almost akin to coming "to the light" of the Gospel itself! It is a whole new epiphany.

Only about 20-25% of the ifb churches are of the "hyles ilk". Don't throw out the whole historic fundamental movement because of a small extremist sect within it.

Some of us are "normal". Of course, present company excluded.

 

[free2know]

Dr Bob,

If I ever get to Casper, I would love to visit a normal IFB church!

I am still scared of IFB's though in my area, my old Pastor wrote us a letter which included several other "good" Baptist churches in the area which I promptly struck off of my search list

One of the main reasons I tried the ABC church was the denominational checks and balances on Pastoral Authority, we suspected something amiss in the Unincorporation process which led to no checkbook in the other church....scary...my son saw someone burning old records one night...it made me wonder....

And anyway, I got lucky, God led me to an ABC which teaches the gospel and allows for grace. I believe we are probably in the place God meant us to be to be able to heal.

Had I not found this board, I would have been very tempted to lump everyone (IFB's)together,I realize how dangerous that is now! I really do appreciate my new friends, even those ones who thump me on the head once in awhile

 

[Kathy]

If you would be so kind, what was so awful about your IFB church? I recently joined an IFB. Went from Southern Baptist to IFB.

Thanks!
Kathy
&lt;&gt;&lt;

 

[Larry]

Hello Kathy,

I came from the SBC to an IFB

man was that a relief

I just want to mention that I know plenty of independent fundamental King James Only Baptist with a capital B, who were quick to condemn Hyles and his brand of abusive pastors & easy believism.

[ December 13, 2001: Message edited by: Larry ]

 

[Kathy]

Hi Larry!

What exactly do you mean by abusive Pastors? How would you define easy believism?

I know I'm asking alot of questions here, but I sincerely want to know what the buzz is about.

I personally don't see anything wrong with women dressing in skirts and dresses only, men being the head of the household...etc. I would definitely have a problem with that IF it were a requirement to attend church.

My Pastor does mention dressing modestly, etc. (you know the drill), but by no means does he DEMAND it.

Thanks
Kathy
&lt;&gt;&lt;

 

[free2know]

Please check out some of the threads like the one on "Pastoral Abuse", Spiritual Abuse, was this a "real" baptist church and the thread on college section on Hyles and you will get a better of idea of some of the legalistic few bad apples who can and sometimes do spoil a whole bunch. There are several good books and links mentioned on the threads which can be found right here on this board....happy reading

 

[Larry]

Abusive Pastors, that would be when a pastor lords his scriptural authority, and non-scriptural authority over "his" church.

I'm all for preachers speaking out about mini skirts etc and I wish more preachers had the backbone to do so. An example of HAC brand of abusive pastors: the first one that comes to mind was a certain Pastor who publicly humiliated a deacon by telling him "stand up! Sit down! Stand up! Sit down! if I told this man to lick my boots, he should do it without question!" another example, I visited a church whose pastor attended the HAC Pastor School for something like twenty years, I didn’t know it when I went in but before the service had gone fifteen minus, I told my wife "I bet this guy is a HAC graduate". I knew that because he kept threatening the members "if you don’t show up for visitation, I'LL GET YOU!" As soon as the service was over we made a beeline to the door. This poor man ran and caught us just before we made our escape and said "man would I be in big trouble, if I let you get out before I gave you this, its my job "

Easy Believeism, when some "spiritual Con-men" leads his victim into saying a prayer, ask the lord in your heart, receive assurance that Heaven will be your home etc. and then declares "your saved! Never doubt it".

Salvation is of the Lord, it is not of the will of the flesh, no man can come unto the Son but the Father draw him, the disciples once asked the Lord "Who then can be saved?" the Lord said "the things which are impossible with men are possible with God"

also see www.wayoflife.org

 

[DocCas]

I wholeheartedly agree with Larry, but also have to ask a question. When Larry and his wife stumbled into that church he immediately noticed something was amiss and left, presumably never to return. He had the good sense not to fall at the guys feet for the next 5 years! So, my question: how much responsibility does the person who attends such a church have to accept for his own "abuse?" Nobody chains you to the pew! They don't hold your children hostaage. So, why in the world would any person stay in such a situation? Instead of blaming the terrible pastor, the terrible church, or the terrible IFB movement, why not assign the blame right where it belongs, to the person who allows himself to be abused?

It seems to me that many Baptists today have fallen into the social fad of being a victum. "Oh, poor me, I am an abused person." Or, "Oh, poor me, I am an abuse surviver." Whatever happened to Victory in Christ?

I am not a victum! I am a victor!

 

[Larry]

"why in the world would any person stay in such a situation? Instead of blaming the terrible pastor, the terrible church, or the terrible IFB movement, why not assign the blame right where it belongs, to the person who allows himself to be abused?"


That’s a good point.

I can see an abusive pastor getting his bluff on a young Christian, but after you have had time to read the word of God and mature a little, there is no excuse for subjecting yourself or your family to that. Most men would fight before they let another man physically abuse a member of his family.

 

[free2know]

Mr. Cassidy,

Haven't we already been over your assertion that people allow themselves to be abused in other threads

I seem to recall this issue as a rehash.

First of all in my experience, this was the first church I attended since the age of six. They seemed to know alot about the bible and I and my family wanted to learn. This Pastor was new to the church when we started attending. His views, beliefs, behaviours gradually changed over the years and became ultra-Hyles. There are also some proven pychological "tools" that these type of people use to convince you that they are totally right, the only church/person who is right and for you to question is TOTALLY wrong, you must be the one with problemo!!!!

You really need to brush up on this subject instead of acusing me and others of being wimps on this board, BTW I am in some pretty good company of some of the other board members who really experienced this. I wish I could take you to "first spiritual abuse" church somewhere in PA and let you see for yourself. You'd be a runnin for the door too sir

Afford me the courtesy of not diminishing mine or others very real experiences. Thank you in advance for your courtesy understanding and apology!

 

[free2know]

I would like to add that type of church appeals to and seeks out "new or Newer converts" so many times it takes years to realize that they are preaching false doctrine. Sometimes you scholar types forget how easy it is to convince new converts of false doctrine.

Also In my humble opinion, the fault lies with dictatoral spritually incorrect leaders, not with innocent people who get sucked into a system just trying to obey "God's" rules.

If I had not discovered the truth you'd be talking to an atheist, that is how profound this issue is...maybe I should ask my neighbor who is now an atheist to give you his testimony on this very same church....I am sure you'd be hanging your head in sadness. Please do not ridicule personal experiences you have no knowlege of, as a Christian, I tend to take people at face value, if they lie, shame on them! But why would someone make this stuff up, be resonable.

 

[Larry]

After thinking about it more, it's perfectly logical that an Easy Believeism church would also have an abusive pastor.

The church would soon fill up with false converts. False converts will do what comes natural unless there is a hard shell, crack the whip kind of Pastor to intimidate them into acting like Christians. False converts have a huge fall away rate so unless you keep your false converts busy making more false converts, the ministry would soon dry up and blow away. It’s a viscous circle.

 

[DocCas]

Larry, good point! It may explain why such churches seem to prosper.

One of my spiritual mentors used to say, "If you are leading and nobody is following, you are not really leading, you are just taking a walk!"

It never ceases to amaze me that people blame others for leading them astray, but never seem to notice they willingly followed! If we look at it from the other perspective, can the "abusive" pastor legitimately blame his sycophantic followers for "enabling" him to continue his "abuse?" After all, if they had not followed, he would not have been leading, but simply taking a walk!

When was it that our entire culture abandoned the concept of personal responsibility and decided to become a culture of victums, blaming all their problems on someone else?

 

[free2know]

Unless I am mistaken....it is the responsibility of the Man of God, the Pastor, to preach the TRUTH...in season, out of season etc. Are you saying we are responsible for this pastor's lies because we didn't know any better? Because he represented himself of preaching God's word and twisted things to make it look like it was God's word instead of mans ideas????

Instead of blaming sincere seeking Christians, blame the people who SHOULD know better, who were educated in theology, who intentionally lead people astray to boost their ego....after all the bible says these people will be held accountable for their flock, not to mention what they did to them.

How you dudes can totally miss the point is totally beyond me.... insinuating I am ****** and naive because I wanted to be a good Christian and picked the wrong church is highly unchristian.

AGAIN, I note: NOT ALL IFB's are like the one I went to.....I can only wonder what yours is like if you feel the need to tear apart hurting Christians.....peace brothers and may the TRUTH set you free from harsh judgment!

 

[Bob Alkire]

Dr. Cassidy, I agree with you to a point.
Why do people fellow a Jack Hyle or a someone to the far left? Because the one to the left wants to find a doctrine that is close to how he is living, most of the time and the one to fellow a Hyle type wants to get as far away from his life style as he can in most cases. They have in their mind what they think a christian is or what they think a christian should be.
In most cases on both sides they take what they think a christian should be and look to the leader, pastor aand go from there. As I said most of the people not all.
I came from a back ground that if we didn't agree, I said lets go outside and handle this, and I would try and take your head off. At the end of a good fight I didn't have to listen to someone run their mouth, wasn't a bad way to handle a problem. I didn't think a christian should take someones head off so I wanted something a little more gentle, also wanted a pastor that his actions of how he lived was as a christian, as in the bible, as they say your talk talks and your walk talks but you walk talks louder than you talk talks. Put your trust in Christ not man and you miss alot of troubles!
So many people want someone to give them the answer and tell them they OK, and great, other want someone to smash them.
Others like to read,study and pray for the Holy Spirit to lead them. They can pick out false doctrine and fasle teachers quicker than the others. Sooner or later most christians come to the point of prayer and study and they will find the answer.
When you have studied the bible and church history, you can pick out false doctrine, that are way out of bounds. Some doctrines are harder and some we will disagree on till Christ returns are we go home.

[ December 14, 2001: Message edited by: Bob Alkire ]

 

[DocCas]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by free2know:
Are you saying we are responsible for this pastor's lies because we didn't know any better? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>That is exactly what I am saying! It is the pastors job to preach Truth, and the congregations job to make sure he preaches Truth! Ignorance of the bible is no excuse! God has commanded every one of us to read, study, meditate, pray over, and practice His word! If you were ignorant of the bible, it was due to your own failure to obey God's plain command. Stop trying to blame others for your failure.

And it seems you still are not completely over your problem. You say <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>NOT ALL IFB's are like the one I went to.....I can only wonder what yours is like if you feel the need to tear apart hurting Christians.....peace brothers and may the TRUTH set you free from harsh judgment!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I am not tearing you apart, you did that to yourself! There is no question your wounds hurt, but remember, they were self inflicted! Many times self inflicted wounds hurt the worst of any!

You then make a slanderous insinuation regarding my church, then follow it up with a pious "set you free from harsh judgment." That is probably the second most hypocritical statement I have seen you make. The first being your tendency to blame everyone else for your failure to discern bad doctrine.

[ December 14, 2001: Message edited by: Thomas Cassidy ]

 

[free2know]

By the way gents, I would be very careful about tossing the term "false converts"....this church actually had the gospel right and I am saved, going to heaven and will see you there whether you like it or not!

I don't mind debating and discussing but leave your personal attacks at the door please, I try to abide by rule one and two, why don't you try it, instead of questioning my intelligence and salvation......

 

[DocCas]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by free2know:
I don't mind debating and discussing but leave your personal attacks at the door please, I try to abide by rule one and two, why don't you try it, instead of questioning my intelligence and salvation......<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Nobody has questioned either your intelligence or your salvation. What I have questioned is your self-honesty.

 

[free2know]

Again you miss the point.....this Pastor used the scriptures to promote his positions and like any good liar, he could make it all fit. Call me ******, but we were taught to study scriptures and listen to the pastor concurrently. Lots of people get hoodwinked, lots of people become disillusioned, never to darken the doors of church again. Whether or not I am responsible.....who cares? It gives IFB's a bad reputation and God can't be pleased by people abusing thier power in his name.

As far as being my responsibility..... you will never know what I went through facing people with your attitude friend. I pray the Holy Spirit will convict you on your tude.If you knew me, you might even like me

You are on my prayer list tonight!