Hyperbole used by God?

[Van]

Perhaps arguing with a tree stump is like arguing with Van or Aaron.

Is the above a metaphor, or hyperbole or both?

If having a log in an eye is not hyperbole, then I am stumped.

 

[Rockson]

I do not (of course) agree that the Scriptures ever present God using terms of exaggeration. Such may certainly be used by humankind, but never by God. As in this above passage, God is not saying Israel will number but saying that even if they were to achieve such a number in that far off land, He would only bring back a few. So, there is no hyperbole being used.

Well you're failing to consider what God told Abraham, "And the LORD took him outside and said, “Now look to the heavens and count the stars, if you are able.” Then He told him, “So shall your offspring be.” Gen 15:5 By saying if you are able seems to signify he wasn't just referring to what could be seen with the naked eye but everything of the galaxies beyond. All the hosts. Innumerable numbers as far as taking the time to count them. Of course Abraham knew God wasn't absolutely serious that his future decedents couldn't actually be counted. It was an acceptable and understood way of using hyperbole.

I'm kind of curious Agedman....when Jesus said if your eye offend you do you really think her was serious that he wanted such a one to go so far as to rip their eye out . (Matt 5:29) Obviously another example of understood hyperbole to make a point.

The principle is that if God exaggerates, then God cannot be trusted in presenting the truth. For exaggeration is not unaligned with a lie, and "God cannot lie."

And as another poster has rightly pointed out hyperbole doesn't mean a lie or false statement intended to deceive and therefore intended to be taken literally. So I'm sorry but your suggestion that it would make God as one who lied is invalid. You have to capture the spirit sometimes of language usage.

 

[melchizedeck]

This thread seeks to address the problem of exaggeration (hyperbole) as it relates to the Word of God, and more specific the basic question of hyperbole being used by God.



Some believers consider such passages as,

Isaiah 10:

20In that day the remnant of Israel and the survivors of the house of Jacob will no more lean on him who struck them, but will lean on the Lord, the Holy One of Israel, in truth. 21A remnant will return, the remnant of Jacob, to the mighty God. 22For though your people Israel be as the sand of the sea, only a remnant of them will return. Destruction is decreed, overflowing with righteousness. 23For the Lord God of hosts will make a full end, as decreed, in the midst of all the earth.

24Therefore thus says the Lord God of hosts: “O my people, who dwell in Zion, be not afraid of the Assyrians when they strike with the rod and lift up their staff against you as the Egyptians did. 25For in a very little while my fury will come to an end, and my anger will be directed to their destruction. 26And the Lord of hosts will wield against them a whip, as when he struck Midian at the rock of Oreb. And his staff will be over the sea, and he will lift it as he did in Egypt. 27And in that day his burden will depart from your shoulder, and his yoke from your neck; and the yoke will be broken because of the fat.”​

examples of the use by God of hyperbole (exaggeration) found in the Scriptures.

I do not (of course) agree that the Scriptures ever present God using terms of exaggeration. Such may certainly be used by humankind, but never by God. As in this above passage, God is not saying Israel will number but saying that even if they were to achieve such a number in that far off land, He would only bring back a few. So, there is no hyperbole being used.

The principle is that if God exaggerates, then God cannot be trusted in presenting the truth. For exaggeration is not unaligned with a lie, and "God cannot lie."

What Scriptures might you consider would support God using exaggeration?

What ideas might you have concerning supporting the thinking that God use exaggeration or some form of hyperbole (overstatement, embellishment, …)

Some consider John 6:53 as hyperbole. It's an interesting verse since literalists will swear you have to take everything the bible says literally and then be the first to deny a literal interpretation.

 

[Rockson]

Huh?????

They are not synonymous.

But a metaphor is still not literally the truth and throughout your thread here, is what you've insisted must absolutely be the method of God.

Well it's not a metaphor when everyone should know something wasn't meant to be taken literally and actually it isn't a lie. You said hyperbolic language would be wrong for God for some might get confused....well if you make that argument so can they with metaphors.

 

[Reformed1689]

Some believers consider such passages as,

Isaiah 10:
20In that day the remnant of Israel and the survivors of the house of Jacob will no more lean on him who struck them, but will lean on the Lord, the Holy One of Israel, in truth. 21A remnant will return, the remnant of Jacob, to the mighty God. 22For though your people Israel be as the sand of the sea, only a remnant of them will return. Destruction is decreed, overflowing with righteousness. 23For the Lord God of hosts will make a full end, as decreed, in the midst of all the earth.

24Therefore thus says the Lord God of hosts: “O my people, who dwell in Zion, be not afraid of the Assyrians when they strike with the rod and lift up their staff against you as the Egyptians did. 25For in a very little while my fury will come to an end, and my anger will be directed to their destruction. 26And the Lord of hosts will wield against them a whip, as when he struck Midian at the rock of Oreb. And his staff will be over the sea, and he will lift it as he did in Egypt. 27And in that day his burden will depart from your shoulder, and his yoke from your neck; and the yoke will be broken because of the fat.”
examples of the use by God of hyperbole (exaggeration) found in the Scriptures.

This is not hyperbole. This is a simile. Those are two very different devices.

 

[Reformed1689]

Perhaps arguing with a tree stump is like arguing with Van or Aaron.

Is the above a metaphor, or hyperbole or both?

It's neither. Apparently people need to go back to English class. The above is a SIMILE.

 

[John of Japan]

Some consider John 6:53 as hyperbole. It's an interesting verse since literalists will swear you have to take everything the bible says literally and then be the first to deny a literal interpretation.

Actually, so-called "literalists" are the first to say that there is figurative language in the Bible. The most comprehensive book on figures of speech in the Bible was written by Bullinger, a literalist if there ever was on. And the only threads on figures of speech on the BB were instigated by yours truly, who follows the historical-grammatical method. Check it out at: Name That Figure of Speech

Please know that allegorical interpretation (covenant theology, amil, postmil) is not the same as interpreting figures of speech.

P. S. Welcome to the BB.

 

[John of Japan]

You stated:

Please look again. The definition you reference says, "Not meant to be taken literally." Therefore, to rephrase your statement, hyperbole is conformed not to be taken literally, and therefore the listener knows that it is not a lie. A lie is a false statement intended to deceive and therefore intended to be taken literally. Hyperbole is not intended to deceive and is not intended to be taken literally."​

Now, what I may have confused you is by sharing that not ALL listeners will take (upon listening) what is delivered as hyperbole as not delivered as fact.

Hyperbole delivered must be received as hyperbole for it to be considered hyperbole. Such is difficult in the written languages for the body language is missing.

I disagree. Figures of speech (including hyperbole) are such even if the reader or hearer does not realize it. Case in point: Catholics believe in transubstantiation, which is simply a complete misunderstanding of the symbolic language Christ used for the Lord's Supper.

At any point have I even eluded to John 21:25 not being inspired? Yet, let me ask you. Which has more esteem, The Lord's statements, or those by Pilot? Both are "inspired" and both are given by God to be included in the Scriptures. No doubt. But do you put the same trust upon the statements of Pilot as you do the statements of the Christ? I'm not talking about if the recorded statements are accurate, nor are they based upon facts, I am asking about the level of esteem given. "What is truth" (a declaration by Pilot) does not carry the esteem nor authority of fact in comparison to "I am the way, the truth, the life." that the Lord Jesus declares.

Here is what you are missing:
1. The words of Pilate are recorded in an inspired manner, but they are not revelation. This is where many do not understand the difference between inspiration and revelation.
2. The words of John in 21:25 are revelation, just as the recorded words of Jesus are. They are not a lesser Word of God in some way than the words of Jesus in red (a misleading way to present the words of Christ).
3. Thus, inspiration describes how the Word of God was given, including passages quoting Pilate or even Satan. But the words of Satan and Pilate are not revelation, or revealed truth.
4. Thus, the words of John's Gospel which are not quoting someone are every bit as much the Word of God as are the words of Jesus in red. One is not superior to the other.

This is off the thread topic, but needs to be addressed. For I in no manner deny the Scriptures as and are the Word of God.

I have been very careful in how I approached your position on the Word of God, and have not suggested that you do not believe in inspiration. However, I do believe you are misunderstanding it.

For the readers who do not know what verbal-plenary inspiration means, John and I both would agree. God exercised such authority that the writers of Scriptures penned the exact words He desired. Not only that, but God has also preserved the written Scriptures both on this earth and in heaven. This is important, for there are those who would not hold this valuable truth, and bring question to the authority of the Word.

We agree.

Now, it is accepted that the purpose, the culture, the motivation, the intent... all mark each book as God communicated exactly what He wanted written. That is the book of Matthew is not written in the same manner as the book of John, for the intended audience was slightly different. John wrote in the terms of a gentile, with the timing and other indicators of the view of the gentile. As such, his record(s) is and can be viewed as precisely specific where Matthew in comparison must usually be viewed from the lenses of the Jews (his targeted audience).

You have described the heart of grammatical-historical interpretation.

Enough of that. Back to responding to John.

Ok, then using your own definition, in the Scriptures can you show a direct quote of God in which God uses any of the synonyms of hyperbole?

I don't know what you mean by "synonyms of hyperbole." But again, please note the difference between inspiration and revelation. The hyperbole in John 21:25 is every bit as much divine revelation as the words of Jesus in red, or any other recorded statement from the mouth of God.

Ok, John.
You are attempting to place a certain blanket excuse that because God verbally inspired, then God must have certainly approved and agreed.

If anything, the God of the Bible desired accuracy and validity. That is ultimately what inspiration and verbal plenary inspiration is all about is it not?

Having agreed, then would you also agree that there are statements in the Scriptures made by humans in which God disapproved yet He, by His own authority, placed them in the Scriptures perhaps as warnings of foolishness to others.

For example, does the bible record a persons lie, murder, adultery, pride, ... Yet, God does not approve of such?

The words and actions (evil) are included in the verbal-plenary inspiration, but they are not God's words God's actions. They are included because God uses such action and words of others for instruction.

Again, consider the difference between Revelation and Inspiration. James Orr wrote a very useful book with that exact title in 1910, which you can check out here: Revelation and inspiration : Orr, James, 1844-1913 : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

Now, this thread is concerning the statements of God made by God. Not by others. Not by John, Peter, Herod, Pilot, Abraham, Adam, ...

This is the false dichotomy. Words of John, Peter, and other writers of Scripture are every bit the Word of God, things God have said, as the words of the Decalogue or the words of Christ in Red.

Did God in His own direct declarations to humankind ever use hyperbole more pointedly exaggeration (a form of hyperbole)?

Nothing has been shown so far to indicate that He did. But, I may certainly be wrong.

The only reason one would have to find a quote from God's mouth to prove He did not use hyperbole is if that person does not believe that the words of John's Gospel and other recorded Scripture are somehow not the direct words of God, and I know you don't believe that.

So, you are on the horns of a dilemma (a handy idiom, which is another type of figure of speech). Don't hurt yourself up there on those horns.

 

[agedman]

Perhaps, the OP was not clear enough.

The OP does not suggest that the Scriptures do not contain figures of speech.

The OP does not suggest that the Scriptures do not contain hyperbole.

What the OP seeks to answer is the question: Does God use hyperbole when He is speaking to humankind directly?

For this thread, I took the stand that ALL hyperbole is an extension of truth and such an extension is dissolved to making the truth into a lie.

JofJ gave the example of "when my Mom said, "If I've told you once I've told you a 1000 times...."

The "obviousness" of the overstatement of truth if not taken as a hyperbole would make the overstatement a lie.

But who determines the matter? The listener is the determiner, not the speaker. For the listener must have understanding and such understanding may be obvious to the speaker, but not always obvious to the listener. Again, I point to the popular "Amelia Bedelia" book series. Those who have worked with the autistic also know what I mean.


For the purpose of THIS thread, hyperbole statements (the actual statements heard from God) must then be proved.

Zachariah, Ezekiel, and Jeremiah are books known for the phrase, "Thus says the Lord." Does God ever use any form of hyperbole (egaggeration, outlandishness, overstatement, ...) in those statements?

Moses wrote extensively the very words spoken by God. Can there be found any statement in those passages?

The view (basic premise) of the OP in this thread is that God does not use hyperbole when He directly communicates to humankind.

Contrary views should point to a passage and show God actually stating a matter using:
"exaggeration, overstatement, magnification, amplification, embroidery, embellishment, overplaying, excess, overkill;" (taken from here) which are synonyms of hyperbole.

Please, again, it is not a matter of "claims not meant to be taken literally."

Again, for the purpose of this thread, in the discussion of the use by God of hyperbole, such an excuse is not a part of the question.

Are folks actually going to support not to taking the quotations by writers of God and Christ as non-literal? Doing so would present the whole of God's word as suspect.

Such claim is a distraction, UNLESS one can show by Scripture a place where either God or Christ is quoted and it cannot be taken literally because form of hyperbole was used.

Prove by Scriptures, God and Christ spoke to humankind in terms using hyperbole will disprove premise of this thread.

 

[John of Japan]

Perhaps, the OP was not clear enough.

The OP does not suggest that the Scriptures do not contain figures of speech.

The OP does not suggest that the Scriptures do not contain hyperbole.

What the OP seeks to answer is the question: Does God use hyperbole when He is speaking to humankind directly?

For this thread, I took the stand that ALL hyperbole is an extension of truth and such an extension is dissolved to making the truth into a lie.

JofJ gave the example of "when my Mom said, "If I've told you once I've told you a 1000 times...."

The "obviousness" of the overstatement of truth if not taken as a hyperbole would make the overstatement a lie.

But who determines the matter? The listener is the determiner, not the speaker. For the listener must have understanding and such understanding may be obvious to the speaker, but not always obvious to the listener. Again, I point to the popular "Amelia Bedelia" book series. Those who have worked with the autistic also know what I mean.


For the purpose of THIS thread, hyperbole statements (the actual statements heard from God) must then be proved.

Zachariah, Ezekiel, and Jeremiah are books known for the phrase, "Thus says the Lord." Does God ever use any form of hyperbole (egaggeration, outlandishness, overstatement, ...) in those statements?

Moses wrote extensively the very words spoken by God. Can there be found any statement in those passages?

The view (basic premise) of the OP in this thread is that God does not use hyperbole when He directly communicates to humankind.

Contrary views should point to a passage and show God actually stating a matter using:
"exaggeration, overstatement, magnification, amplification, embroidery, embellishment, overplaying, excess, overkill;" (taken from here) which are synonyms of hyperbole.

Please, again, it is not a matter of "claims not meant to be taken literally."

Again, for the purpose of this thread, in the discussion of the use by God of hyperbole, such an excuse is not a part of the question.

Are folks actually going to support not to taking the quotations by writers of God and Christ as non-literal? Doing so would present the whole of God's word as suspect.

Such claim is a distraction, UNLESS one can show by Scripture a place where either God or Christ is quoted and it cannot be taken literally because form of hyperbole was used.

Prove by Scriptures, God and Christ spoke to humankind in terms using hyperbole will disprove premise of this thread.

Well, I don't know where else to go with this. Near as I can figure, you think that hyperbole would be a lie if God actually stated it from His mouth (personification), but hyperbole is not a lie if God used it in His word (every bit the same to me) when it was not a direct quote from God.

But hey, let's try this. As someone has already mentioned, God promised Abraham that his seed would be numbered like the stars, which are uncountable. This is mentioned 4 times in the OT. Do you suppose that God did not know exactly how many stars He had made, so that this statement is literally true? An estimate is that there are over 250 billion stars in the Milky Way galaxy (far more than the number of people who have ever lived on the earth), and there are estimated to be at least two trillion galaxies in the known universe. I say that God used hyperbole here.

Ge 15:5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.
Ge 22:17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;
Ge 26:4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
Ex 32:13 Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, thy servants, to whom thou swarest by thine own self, and saidst unto them, I will multiply your seed as the stars of heaven, and all this land that I have spoken of will I give unto your seed, and they shall inherit it for ever.

 

[Revmitchell]

Some consider John 6:53 as hyperbole. It's an interesting verse since literalists will swear you have to take everything the bible says literally and then be the first to deny a literal interpretation.

You have no idea what "literalists swear"

 

[agedman]

I disagree. Figures of speech (including hyperbole) are such even if the reader or hearer does not realize it. Case in point: Catholics believe in transubstantiation, which is simply a complete misunderstanding of the symbolic language Christ used for the Lord's Supper....

This first response is a general observation, only. I will address specific issues of your post later.

Surely you can show hyperbole used in direct quotes from God and not using God quoting John for John to write down.

This thread's premise is the Scripture does not contain direct statements from God and Christ using any form of hyperbole.

God quoting what John stated about the Christ, though inspired by God and dictated directly by God to John to write, is not God stating hyperbole, but God quoting John just as God quoted Pilot, Herod, Moses, Abraham, Adam ....

Now, if you disagree with the premise of the OP, then quote direct statements by God and Christ and prove the premise unsupportable.

But do not expect to prove your view by using what God dictated to be put down in which He quoted others.

You are a linguist, and you had multiple threads dealing with figures of speech, and then also dealing with how those figures of speech effect the thinking of prophetic statements.

Yet the one figure of speech that was never proved to be used by God or Christ in any direct statement by them was hyperbole or any form of hyperbole.

That is what this thread is seeking to resolve.

 

[John of Japan]

This first response is a general observation, only. I will address specific issues of your post later.

Surely you can show hyperbole used in direct quotes from God and not using God quoting John for John to write down.

See post #30.

This thread's premise is the Scripture does not contain direct statements from God and Christ using any form of hyperbole.

Then this thread's premise is that only "direct statements form God and Christ" are revelation from God.

 

[Revmitchell]

Perhaps, the OP was not clear enough.

The OP does not suggest that the Scriptures do not contain figures of speech.

The OP does not suggest that the Scriptures do not contain hyperbole.

What the OP seeks to answer is the question: Does God use hyperbole when He is speaking to humankind directly?

For this thread, I took the stand that ALL hyperbole is an extension of truth and such an extension is dissolved to making the truth into a lie.

JofJ gave the example of "when my Mom said, "If I've told you once I've told you a 1000 times...."

The "obviousness" of the overstatement of truth if not taken as a hyperbole would make the overstatement a lie.

But who determines the matter? The listener is the determiner, not the speaker. For the listener must have understanding and such understanding may be obvious to the speaker, but not always obvious to the listener. Again, I point to the popular "Amelia Bedelia" book series. Those who have worked with the autistic also know what I mean.


For the purpose of THIS thread, hyperbole statements (the actual statements heard from God) must then be proved.

Zachariah, Ezekiel, and Jeremiah are books known for the phrase, "Thus says the Lord." Does God ever use any form of hyperbole (egaggeration, outlandishness, overstatement, ...) in those statements?

Moses wrote extensively the very words spoken by God. Can there be found any statement in those passages?

The view (basic premise) of the OP in this thread is that God does not use hyperbole when He directly communicates to humankind.

Contrary views should point to a passage and show God actually stating a matter using:
"exaggeration, overstatement, magnification, amplification, embroidery, embellishment, overplaying, excess, overkill;" (taken from here) which are synonyms of hyperbole.

Please, again, it is not a matter of "claims not meant to be taken literally."

Again, for the purpose of this thread, in the discussion of the use by God of hyperbole, such an excuse is not a part of the question.

Are folks actually going to support not to taking the quotations by writers of God and Christ as non-literal? Doing so would present the whole of God's word as suspect.

Such claim is a distraction, UNLESS one can show by Scripture a place where either God or Christ is quoted and it cannot be taken literally because form of hyperbole was used.

Prove by Scriptures, God and Christ spoke to humankind in terms using hyperbole will disprove premise of this thread.

Me thinks someone has too much time on their hands. You would be better off going outside and mowing your lawn.

 

[Reformed1689]

Actually, so-called "literalists" are the first to say that there is figurative language in the Bible. The most comprehensive book on figures of speech in the Bible was written by Bullinger, a literalist if there ever was on. And the only threads on figures of speech on the BB were instigated by yours truly, who follows the historical-grammatical method. Check it out at: Name That Figure of Speech

Please know that allegorical interpretation (covenant theology, amil, postmil) is not the same as interpreting figures of speech.

P. S. Welcome to the BB.

I couldn't have stated this better!

 

[Van]

It's neither. Apparently people need to go back to English class. The above is a SIMILE.

Yet another distinction without a difference. God used hyperbole in scripture. End of story.

 

[agedman]

Here is what you are missing:
1. The words of Pilate are recorded in an inspired manner, but they are not revelation. This is where many do not understand the difference between inspiration and revelation.
2. The words of John in 21:25 are revelation, just as the recorded words of Jesus are. They are not a lesser Word of God in some way than the words of Jesus in red (a misleading way to present the words of Christ).
3. Thus, inspiration describes how the Word of God was given, including passages quoting Pilate or even Satan. But the words of Satan and Pilate are not revelation, or revealed truth.
4. Thus, the words of John's Gospel which are not quoting someone are every bit as much the Word of God as are the words of Jesus in red. One is not superior to the other.

Oh, my. Now you would argue lesser and greater, inspiration, revelation, ...

Can you find a direct quote by God, of God stating a revelation (for all God's direct statements are a revelation) in which God (or Christ) use hyperbole?

I have been very careful in how I approached your position on the Word of God, and have not suggested that you do not believe in inspiration. However, I do believe you are misunderstanding it.

Because I would acknowledge that God quoted others, I am in some manner bringing inspiration into question?

Because I would acknowledge that Paul also made the distinction between revelation and inspiration in his own writing to Corinthians, I am in some manner bringing inspiration into question?

Because I take John's statement as from God directly quoting John's thoughts, for reasons of His determination, I am in some manner bringing inspiration into question?

You could be more mistaken, but I am not certain by how much.

I don't know what you mean by "synonyms of hyperbole." But again, please note the difference between inspiration and revelation. The hyperbole in John 21:25 is every bit as much divine revelation as the words of Jesus in red, or any other recorded statement from the mouth of God.

"synonyms of hyperbole"
"synonyms:exaggeration, overstatement, magnification, amplification, embroidery, embellishment, overplaying, excess, overkill;"

Now you know what I mean.

"All Scripture is breathed out by God..." That is a fact. Nothing is written that God did not dictate to be written which includes events, thoughts, motives of even the evil minded and and perverse.

This is the false dichotomy. Words of John, Peter, and other writers of Scripture are every bit the Word of God, things God have said, as the words of the Decalogue or the words of Christ in Red.

Agreed.

However, God quoting the words of others and directing them (dictating) to be placed in Scriptures does not transfer them to being God's own words anymore than you quoting your wife makes her words yours. God quoting blasphemers does not make God blaspheme.

But you would have some think that God's word is all the statements of God, and not that God directed and dictated the statements of others to be included in His word.

In your textbooks, do they quote others? Yet does not the book have an author? Does that author always agree with the quote of others? Yet they are in that book? The author of the book determines what is in the book. The secretarial staff listen to the Dictaphone and write what that writer dictates.

The revealed truth, the inspired truth.

The only reason one would have to find a quote from God's mouth to prove He did not use hyperbole is if that person does not believe that the words of John's Gospel and other recorded Scripture are somehow not the direct words of God, and I know you don't believe that.

So, you are on the horns of a dilemma (a handy idiom, which is another type of figure of speech). Don't hurt yourself up there on those horns.

Well, should I have taken what you stated as factual, then you might have traction. But, quoting God's word, is not quoting God's Word. That Word which became flesh and dwelt among us. Did that Word ever use hyperbole?

The premise of this thread is that neither God nor Christ ever spoke in terms of hyperbole unless quoting the statements of others.

 

[Reformed1689]

Yet another distinction without a difference. God used hyperbole in scripture. End of story.

It is not a distinction without a difference. Give an example of God using Hyperbole. I haven't seen one yet. Similes are not hyperboles.

 

[agedman]

Some consider John 6:53 as hyperbole. It's an interesting verse since literalists will swear you have to take everything the bible says literally and then be the first to deny a literal interpretation.

Interesting. Is it hyperbole?

 

[Reformed1689]

Interesting. Is it hyperbole?

No. It is figurative. Not Hyperbole.