Hyperbole used by God?

[agedman]

But a metaphor is still not literally the truth and throughout your thread here, is what you've insisted must absolutely be the method of God.

Well it's not a metaphor when everyone should know something wasn't meant to be taken literally and actually it isn't a lie. You said hyperbolic language would be wrong for God for some might get confused....well if you make that argument so can they with metaphors.

Not discussing other parts of speech. One found of one kind does not indicate others are used.

I set forth the OP in terms "that God cannot lie" and therefore He cannot use hyperbole. It isn't a matter of the determination of the speaker, but that of the listener getting the "obvious" overstatement. Because God is not going to rely upon humankind getting even what is "obvious," as Christ pointed out when saying, "...it is those Scriptures that yield testimony concerning me..."that is one part of Speech excluded from God's use.

 

[agedman]

Well, I don't know where else to go with this. Near as I can figure, you think that hyperbole would be a lie if God actually stated it from His mouth (personification), but hyperbole is not a lie if God used it in His word (every bit the same to me) when it was not a direct quote from God.

Yep. If I quote you accurately and you use a hyperbole, am I then using a hyperbole? Nope.

But hey, let's try this. As someone has already mentioned, God promised Abraham that his seed would be numbered like the stars, which are uncountable. This is mentioned 4 times in the OT. Do you suppose that God did not know exactly how many stars He had made, so that this statement is literally true? An estimate is that there are over 250 billion stars in the Milky Way galaxy (far more than the number of people who have ever lived on the earth), and there are estimated to be at least two trillion galaxies in the known universe. I say that God used hyperbole here.

Interesting point. But who is God instructing to do the counting? God knows, but did humankind?

Now, the question then comes, because God does know the numbers as fact, is it then a hyperbole? Did He who knows communicating to one who does not have the ability to know actually use hyperbole or was the terms used to bring understanding in the capacity of humankind.


In this text that you graciously gave look at the highlighted words:
Ge 15:5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.
Ge 22:17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;
Ge 26:4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
Ex 32:13 Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, thy servants, to whom thou swarest by thine own self, and saidst unto them, I will multiply your seed as the stars of heaven, and all this land that I have spoken of will I give unto your seed, and they shall inherit it for ever.

The focus is upon abundance, not upon exact numbers.

And can you find any hyperbole in the statements of revelation given by God?

Is not the God using simile and not hyperbole?

 

[John of Japan]

Oh, my. Now you would argue lesser and greater, inspiration, revelation, ...

No I'm not, not in the slightest. Please take more time to think through my post. And you appear to be using "inspiration" and "revelation" here as synonyms. They are not.

Can you find a direct quote by God, of God stating a revelation (for all God's direct statements are a revelation) in which God (or Christ) use hyperbole?

Once again, look at Post #30.

Because I would acknowledge that God quoted others, I am in some manner bringing inspiration into question?

Because I would acknowledge that Paul also made the distinction between revelation and inspiration in his own writing to Corinthians, I am in some manner bringing inspiration into question?

Because I take John's statement as from God directly quoting John's thoughts, for reasons of His determination, I am in some manner bringing inspiration into question?

You could be more mistaken, but I am not certain by how much.

You are still not understanding what I am saying about the difference between inspiration and revelation. Maybe this quote from a good Baptist systematic theologian will help.

"While revelation is the communication of truth from God to humans, inspiration relates more to the relaying of that truth from the first recipient(s) of it to other persons, whether then or later. Thus, revelation might be thought of as a vertical action, and inspiration as a horizontal matter. While revelation and inspiration are usually thought of ogetyher, it is impossible to have one without the oher. There are cases of inspiration without revelation. The Holy Spirit in some instances moved Scripture writers to record the words of unbelievers, words that certainly were not divinely revealed" (Millard Erickson, Christian Theology, 3rd ed., 169-170).

"synonyms of hyperbole"
"synonyms:exaggeration, overstatement, magnification, amplification, embroidery, embellishment, overplaying, excess, overkill;"

Now you know what I mean.

If you are saying that hyperbole and exaggeration are the same thing, they are not. Mere exaggeration is not a figure of speech.

The premise of this thread is that neither God nor Christ ever spoke in terms of hyperbole unless quoting the statements of others.

Well, anyway, check out Post #30 and tell me God did not use hyperbole there.

 

[John of Japan]

Yep. If I quote you accurately and you use a hyperbole, am I then using a hyperbole? Nope.




Interesting point. But who is God instructing to do the counting? God knows, but did humankind?

Now, the question then comes, because God does know the numbers as fact, is it then a hyperbole? Did He who knows communicating to one who does not have the ability to know actually use hyperbole or was the terms used to bring understanding in the capacity of humankind.


In this text that you graciously gave look at the highlighted words:
Ge 15:5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.
Ge 22:17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;
Ge 26:4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
Ex 32:13 Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, thy servants, to whom thou swarest by thine own self, and saidst unto them, I will multiply your seed as the stars of heaven, and all this land that I have spoken of will I give unto your seed, and they shall inherit it for ever.

The focus is upon abundance, not upon exact numbers.

And can you find any hyperbole in the statements of revelation given by God?

Is not the God using simile and not hyperbole?

No, God is using hyperbole.

I give up. See you on some other thread.

 

[agedman]

See post #30.


Then this thread's premise is that only "direct statements form God and Christ" are revelation from God.

Is it not your own thinking, too?

Is there now a departure from dictation?

Why not turn the OP to your own challenge and present direct statements in which God and Christ made that express hyperbole? Are there any?

Now, does God quote others using such? Of course.

The question is does God ever use His Word (Christ) to communicate that which is exaggerated, overstated, outlandish, or some other extravagant statement?

Haven't found any yet. Still looking for something that will disprove the premise of the OP.

 

[agedman]

No I'm not, not in the slightest. Please take more time to think through my post. And you appear to be using "inspiration" and "revelation" here as synonyms. They are not.

Never stated, but because they cannot be used separately, and are linked, more often they can appear synonymous. But they are not.

Once again, look at Post #30.

Takes time to get to each post when responding to multiple posts, but I think I did respond to that post.

You are still not understanding what I am saying about the difference between inspiration and revelation. Maybe this quote from a good Baptist systematic theologian will help.

"While revelation is the communication of truth from God to humans, inspiration relates more to the relaying of that truth from the first recipient(s) of it to other persons, whether then or later. Thus, revelation might be thought of as a vertical action, and inspiration as a horizontal matter. While revelation and inspiration are usually thought of ogetyher, it is impossible to have one without the oher. There are cases of inspiration without revelation. The Holy Spirit in some instances moved Scripture writers to record the words of unbelievers, words that certainly were not divinely revealed" (Millard Erickson, Christian Theology, 3rd ed., 169-170).

"it is impossible to have one without the other."

Perhaps it is you who is attempting to make distinction.

God's Word and word reveal all truth. It is able to separate and open for display the thoughts, intentions of the heart, cleave between the soul (ishness) and spirit, even disclosing the very life building blocks covered (hidden) in bone.

God's Word and word inspire so that believers perform the tasks set before them.

I could go on, but you already know that the interrelationship of the two words cannot be broken.

If you are saying that hyperbole and exaggeration are the same thing, they are not. Mere exaggeration is not a figure of speech..

Go back to the first indication of where I got the definition.

Synonyms of hyperbole include: exaggeration, overstatement, ...

In the broad umbrella there is the canvas, the spokes, the handle, ... it is all under the term - umbrella.

Can you actually use exaggeration in a sentence (s) that is not a figure of Speech?

Just wondering.

 

[John of Japan]

Is it not your own thinking, too?
.

Absolutely not.

Is there now a departure from dictation?

Not in the slightest.

Please stop misrepresenting my positions.

 

[agedman]

No, God is using hyperbole.

I give up. See you on some other thread.

Why would you give up?

You have yet to show a single passage in which God is talking and He uses hyperbole.

You have presented a whole lot of distractions to the thread by going into matters of inspiration, of matters concerning authority, and matters concerning how God delivered His word (the bible) to us.

All I desired is that there be a direct quote from the God and the Word in which either use hyperbole.

So far, nothing on this thread has been offered in which documentation can be attached.

Surely, as a Bible scholar, this should be a matter of great consideration.

For, great prophetic statements hang in the balance.

For example, If it is proven God used hyperbole, who is to say that the prophets cannot be read with that mind set? That God was just using overstatement, exaggeration, being fanciful...

Is that not exactly the position that the ungodly and perhaps some even on this board take concerning the statements given to the prophets?

Is there not a cause to bring this to the BB and consider it?

Why then would you give up?

If the thread has convinced you, then be watchful as that good gift by God was given you in linguistic to parse out the truth and show that some statements are not hyperbole, but perhaps simile or metaphor or some other figure of speech as I did with the passage in Genesis you presented.

But, do not fade back from the thread. Your input has been not only valuable, but has been highly edifying to the readers.

Perhaps you think I am being obstinate in the presentation. Or perhaps we are very close in agreement and still need to tease out the fine distinguish of view?

 

[agedman]

Absolutely not.

Not in the slightest.

Please stop misrepresenting my positions.

You say, "absolutely not," yet you desire to John's writing as an example of God stating hyperbole?

How then is this different.

How is it not?

I am not in the slightest intending to misrepresent your positions. I want to express them accurately.

Was not your position that ALL the words of the Scriptures come from God, and therefore God does use hyperbole?

 

[John of Japan]

Why would you give up?

You have yet to show a single passage in which God is talking and He uses hyperbole.

You have presented a whole lot of distractions to the thread by going into matters of inspiration, of matters concerning authority, and matters concerning how God delivered His word (the bible) to us.

All I desired is that there be a direct quote from the God and the Word in which either use hyperbole.

So far, nothing on this thread has been offered in which documentation can be attached.

Surely, as a Bible scholar, this should be a matter of great consideration.

For, great prophetic statements hang in the balance.

For example, If it is proven God used hyperbole, who is to say that the prophets cannot be read with that mind set? That God was just using overstatement, exaggeration, being fanciful...

Is that not exactly the position that the ungodly and perhaps some even on this board take concerning the statements given to the prophets?

Is there not a cause to bring this to the BB and consider it?

Why then would you give up?

If the thread has convinced you, then be watchful as that good gift by God was given you in linguistic to parse out the truth and show that some statements are not hyperbole, but perhaps simile or metaphor or some other figure of speech as I did with the passage in Genesis you presented.

But, do not fade back from the thread. Your input has been not only valuable, but has been highly edifying to the readers.

Perhaps you think I am being obstinate in the presentation. Or perhaps we are very close in agreement and still need to tease out the fine distinguish of view?

I have to go have an eye exam. I'll think about this. Thank you for your kind words about my input.

 

[Van]

It is not a distinction without a difference. Give an example of God using Hyperbole. I haven't seen one yet. Similes are not hyperboles.

Take the log out of your eye

 

[Reformed1689]

Take the log out of your eye

That's not hyperbole. That's figurative and that is not the same thing.

 

[RighteousnessTemperance&]

Hmm. Take a well-established word, cleverly redefine it to suit, then start a fight. Sounds like a human thing to do, but not very Christian, at least not of the mature sort.

 

[Rockson]

That's not hyperbole. That's figurative and that is not the same thing.

Well let's try this one God speaking of the Chaldean army,

They shall cut down her forest, saith the LORD, though it cannot be searched; because they are more than the grasshoppers, and are innumerable.
Jer 46:23

One dictionary definition even states the word many times is used in a hyperbolic way.

Or is your position rather that the Chaldean army that God is speaking about literally cannot be counted?

 

[RighteousnessTemperance&]

Perhaps the clearest, most poignant case of biblical hyperbole is Luke 14:26: “'If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters—yes, even their own life—such a person cannot be my disciple,'" –Jesus (NIV).

"'If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple,'" –Jesus (KJV).

Beyond doubt this is hyperbole, because in the parallel passage in Matthew 10:37 Jesus says, “'Anyone who loves their father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves their son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me,'" –Jesus (NIV).

"'He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me,'" –Jesus (KJV).

 

[Reformed1689]

Well let's try this one God speaking of the Chaldean army,

They shall cut down her forest, saith the LORD, though it cannot be searched; because they are more than the grasshoppers, and are innumerable.
Jer 46:23

One dictionary definition even states the word many times is used in a hyperbolic way.

Or is your position rather that the Chaldean army that God is speaking about literally cannot be counted?

Again, if you read the entire chapter, this is clearly figurative language.

 

[Rockson]

Again, if you read the entire chapter, this is clearly figurative language.

Doesn't matter if some of it is figurative. It still uses a hyperbolic statement that their numbers are innumerable. I can't understand why you would deny this.

 

[John of Japan]

I have just a few minutes this morning before duty calls. Here are statements by agedman that are frustrating and made me say, "I quit." While he believes in verbal inspiration, he says:

Do you see it problematic that I hold to God, nor words from God ever using hyperbole in terms of exaggeration, overstatement, outlandishness, ....)?

Again, he wrote in a different post:

However, God quoting the words of others and directing them (dictating) to be placed in Scriptures does not transfer them to being God's own words anymore than you quoting your wife makes her words yours. God quoting blasphemers does not make God blaspheme.

But you would have some think that God's word is all the statements of God, and not that God directed and dictated the statements of others to be included in His word.

So he is trying to say that Scripture is God's Word--but God didn't say all of it. He is asserting that since God quoted Satan and others (not revelation from God), then when John wrote his Gospel it was somehow not exactly the words of God in the same way as when God is quoted--but somehow it is the "Word of God."

Then he refuses to admit any contradiction here.

When God is directly quoted as saying something in the Bible, he claims that God never uses hyperbole. Then he denies that it is hyperbole when God tells Abraham that his seed will be as the stars of heaven (trillions and trillions).

He also claims that when the Apostle John uses obvious hyperbole in John 21:25, it isn't God speaking--even though God verbally inspired it ("breathed in out" in the Greek of 2 Tim. 3:16) and it is revelation from God (God speaking through John), it is not words of God--even though it is God's Word.

So basically, I've said everything I need to on this thread. We are at an impasse. I don't need the frustration.

 

[Reformed1689]

Doesn't matter if some of it is figurative. It still uses a hyperbolic statement that their numbers are innumerable. I can't understand why you would deny this.

I don't think you understand what a hyperbole is and what it is not.

 

[RighteousnessTemperance&]

Can you find a direct quote by God, of God stating a revelation (for all God's direct statements are a revelation) in which God (or Christ) use hyperbole? ... That Word which became flesh and dwelt among us. Did that Word ever use hyperbole? ... The premise of this thread is that neither God nor Christ ever spoke in terms of hyperbole unless quoting the statements of others.

AM, JoJ agreed with this example, or didn't you notice?

Perhaps the clearest, most poignant case of biblical hyperbole is Luke 14:26: “'If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters—yes, even their own life—such a person cannot be my disciple,'" –Jesus (NIV).

"'If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple,'" –Jesus (KJV).

Beyond doubt this is hyperbole, because in the parallel passage in Matthew 10:37 Jesus says, “'Anyone who loves their father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves their son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me,'" –Jesus (NIV).

"'He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me,'" –Jesus (KJV).