Featured I am a false convert, love my sin, and headed to hell!!

Sinners repenting and believing in the gospel is evidence that God has begun the salvation process via regeneration....

 

:BangHead:

I'm really trying to give you the benefit of a doubt and hope that you are simply uninformed or misinformed, not intentionally deceitful.

Have you read that sermon in full? I would be shocked if you had, since if you had and were not simply relying on secondary sources you would understand that you misrepresent Spurgeon.

Further, have you ever read sermon #979, Regeneration and Faith? Why do you not quote from it? Here, allow me:

Now, you could argue that Spurgeon changed his view on faith and regeneration, as these sermons were preached 8 years apart (Warrant of Faith - 1863, Regeneration and Faith - 1871). That clearly isn't the case though as all evidence points to his being a Calvinist from shortly after his conversion.

Regardless, to take a passage from the older sermon out of context, twisting it to say it supports the synergist position and saying this interpretation was the position of the preacher himself, despite the mountain of evidence to the contrary, is just wrong. Immoral and deceitful in my honest opinion. I'm hoping that you just received bad information from a secondary source.

As for your continual misunderstanding of Calvinism, I just don't have the patience this morning. Maybe after I down my Monster or some coffee...

 

You are proving my point Willis, not refuting it. You believe it is impossible for an unregenerated sinner to repent and believe the gospel, just as I said.

So, it is ridiculous to preach the gospel to an unregenerated sinner if Calvinism is true.

But it is just as ridiculous to preach the gospel to a regenerated man, because he is already saved and does not need to hear the gospel as Spurgeon said.

Now, I realize you do not believe regeneration equals salvation, but how can a born again person, a son of God be lost? How can a born again person, a son of God not be saved? Please answer those questions.

 

I did not twist or misrepresent Spurgeon at all. Spurgeon said it is an unnecessary and ridiculous thing to preach the gospel to a regenerated man, because in his view a regenerated man is SAVED. He is already SAVED and so it is unnecessary for him to hear the gospel and believe it to be saved being saved already.

There is nothing complex or difficult to understand about what Spurgeon said, and I agree with him 100%. If you are already saved, you do not need to hear the gospel and believe it.

But what seems to have escaped Spurgeon (he did not say this at all) is that his own doctrine (Calvinism) teaches that it is utterly impossible for an unregenerated person to understand, repent, and believe the gospel. According to Calvinism, only a regenerate person can understand, repent, and believe the gospel.

This is a no-win situation for sinners unless God regenerates them. They couldn't believe the gospel if they wanted to, and they can't want to.

But it also renders the gospel completely meaningless and useless, because regenerated people don't need to hear the gospel.

So, I have not misrepresented Spurgeon, I am not twisting anything, I am making a perfectly logical and sensible argument. And it is perfectly true.

 

You never answered my questions. Have you read the sermon you are quoting from? Have you read sermon #979, Regeneration and Faith?

 

That new sermon doesn't help you, it simply reinforces what Spurgeon said earlier. He is saying that faith shows regeneration. So, the only person who has the ability to believe is a regenerate person, and a regenerate person is already saved and does not NEED to hear and believe the gospel.

This simply reinforces my argument against you.

See, non-Cals like myself believe sinners have the ability to believe. Now, it is not believing the gospel that saves you, believing is simply casting ones' self upon Jesus, utterly depending and relying on him to save you. It is like when sick people came up to Jesus and begged him to heal them. Sinners can do this, just like sick people could do this. And when they do, Jesus has promised he will save that person. Just as he healed sick persons from physical sickness, when we come to Jesus sin-sick he heals us. He takes away our sins and gives us eternal life. He regenerates us. Our faith doesn't save us, Jesus does.

The Bible clearly shows sinners can believe.

Jon 3:5 So the people of Nineveh believed God, and proclaimed a fast, and put on sackcloth, from the greatest of them even to the least of them.

When the people of Nineveh heard Jonah's preaching, they believed the word of God and repented. Are they saved? Not yet, read on.

Jon 3:10 And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.

This is when the people of Nineveh were saved, when God saw they believed his word and repented, then God repented of the evil that he said he would do to them.

So, it is God that saved them when he repented and did not destroy them, their faith did not save them.

And I think this is the whole problem, Calvinists completely misunderstand what faith is. Faith is not some magical thing, faith is simply believing God's word, and then coming in complete dependence to him for forgiveness. And God has promised, all those who come to him will be saved.

This story shows sinners can both repent and believe. And when a sinner repents and believes, God forgives them and gives them eternal life. This is when they are regenerated.

 

I just read it, but it does not help your view, it only reinforces mine.

Faith is a gift from God in the sense that no man could possibly believe the gospel unless God revealed it. It is KNOWLEDGE that enables a sinner to believe.

It is not that a sinner is like a crippled person who cannot stand up, and that Jesus supernaturally strengthened and healed that crippled person's bones, muscles, and nerves so now he can stand up.

No, it is KNOWLEDGE that enables a sinner to believe. This is what Jesus said in John 6:44-45;

Jhn 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

Calvinists love vs. 44 that says no man can come to Jesus unless God the Father draws him, but they seldom read vs. 45 which explains how God draws a man. It is those men who have been taught that come, those who have heard and learned. It is KNOWLEDGE that draws men to Jesus, it is KNOWLEDGE that enables men to come in faith to Jesus.

Paul showed the same thing with Timothy.

2 Tim 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

Paul told Timothy that the scripture were able to "make him wise" unto salvation through faith in Jesus. The scriptures teach us we are sinners, but if we come in dependence and faith to Jesus he will heal us and save us.

Everybody thinks faith is magical, it is not. Faith is simply believing God's word.

What is supernatural, is that when we come to Jesus in faith, he supernaturally heals us, he forgives our sins and regenerates us, he gives us his Holy Spirit. This part is supernatural, this is God's part of salvation.

But believing is simply taking God at his word, nothing supernatural about that. That is our part of salvation.

 

I didn't prove your point. I showed you that regeneration precedes conversion.

 

You're whole argument is that faith precedes and causes regeneration. You are falsely trying to use Spurgeon's material to promote the idea. The sermon I quoted shows definitively that this is not the case.

 

Do you take humberage to doctrine? Also, if sinful man isn't a slave to sin, then why doesn't he stop sinning?

 

The teaching that knowledge saves or enables one to be saved is a core element of gnosticism. I hope you are not a gnostic. I don't believe you are. I think you are just confused and grasping at anything to buttress your man-centered view of salvation.

Scripture does not say that faith is "simply believing God's word."

[Heb 11:1 ESV] 1 Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.

 

Regeneration brings God's word to Light in a sinner. They have new eyes to see with...the old eyes of the fallen soul were blinded....regeneration gives them sight...

 

I disagree, faith is being persuaded that what God has promised, he is able to perform.

Rom 4:21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.

It is simply believing that God is honest. He keeps his promises, and he is able to keep his promises.

Heb 11:11 Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.

Faith is a judgment, it is judging that God is honest and trustworthy and keeps his promises.

You could be the biggest thief in town and a compulsive liar. You could be the most untrustworthy person in your state, yet you still have the ability to trust your mother when she promises you she will visit you in prison this week.

Saving faith is simply relying on Jesus to save you as he promised he would if you trust him. Jesus himself compared it to looking at the brass serpent placed on a pole by Moses. Every man who was bitten, if he would simply look to that brass serpent would be healed. It is not our faith that heals, it is Jesus that heals, but we must look to him to be saved. That is what my signature verse Isa 45:22 says.

Isa 45:22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.

It is nonsensical for a regenerated man to hear the gospel and believe, because he is already regenerated as Spurgeon said. This is also what Jesus himself said;

Mat 9:11 And when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto his disciples, Why eateth your Master with publicans and sinners?
12 But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick.

Someone who is well does not need a doctor, but someone who is sick. Likewise, a regenerate man does not need to hear the gospel and believe it, he is already spiritually alive, he is healed, he is saved.

Calvinism teaches that only a regenerate man can believe. This is akin to believing that a man must be physically healed before he could come to Jesus for healing. If he is already healed, he does not need healing.

Jesus said the dead could hear his voice, and those that hear shall (future tense) live.

Jhn 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

Calvinism teaches that only the living (regenerate) can hear the words of Jesus, but Jesus said "the dead" can hear his voice, and those that hear shall live.

Calvinism is error.

 

Regeneration shows the sinner they are in need of being converted. Many are sick, yet don't believe they will die. Many have had chest pains, and yet, refused to go to their doctor, and died. Those who truly know they need healed go to their doctor seeking their assistance....

 

No Willis, you are teaching that a person who has been made whole needs a doctor. Jesus refuted this.

Mat 9:12 But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick.

Willis, someone that has been made well does not need a doctor. If you have been made alive, regenerated, then you do not need to hear the gospel and believe it, you are spiritually alive already.

Look, you are either spiritually dead or alive. There is no in-between being spiritually alive and being saved. When you are no longer spiritually dead, you have passed from death to life and shall not come into condemnation. You are saved.

Jhn 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

When a sinner hears the gospel and believes it, immediately all his sins are forgiven. He is no longer condemned, and has passed from death to life.

If God regenerates a person before they hear the gospel, they don't need to hear the gospel. They are already well, they are already healed, they don't need a doctor. Spurgeon realized this, read again.

Spurgeon is correct here, they that be whole have no need of a physician, but they that be sick.

Willis, you are teaching that a person who has already been healed needs healing. It is nonsense.

Give it up man.

 

No, only God has the power to regenerate a person, but God has promised to regenerate any person who trusts his Son Jesus Christ to save them.

Why can't you understand this?

 

That is knowledge Willis, that is illumination, that is being enlightened. And this is exactly how the word of God enables men to believe, by INFORMING them, by TEACHING them, by giving them KNOWLEDGE.

Jhn 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

Does Paul ask how shall a man believe on Jesus unless he is regenerated? NO.

Does Paul ask how shall a man believe on Jesus unless he has heard of him? YES.

What does this imply is necessary to believe on Jesus?

It implies they need to HEAR the gospel to believe it. Nobody can believe what they do not know. It is the knowledge of the gospel that enables men to believe. This is why Jesus told us to go out and TEACH all nations.

Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Willis, there are two kinds of blindness. One is when you are physically blind. Another type is when you are in darkness and cannot see because of a lack of light. This is the kind of blindness scripture describes.

Mat 4:16 The people which sat in darkness saw great light; and to them which sat in the region and shadow of death light is sprung up.

Yes, we were all blind because there was no light. We were blind because we were ignorant. The gospel gives us that knowledge that we might believe.

 

Knowledge teaches you that you are a lost sinner.

Knowledge teaches you that Jesus is the Son of God who died for our sins and rose from the dead three days later.

Knowledge teaches us that if we will believe or depend on Jesus to save us, that he will forgive all our sins and give us everlasting life.

Knowledge simply enables you to be saved. It does not save you, Jesus saves you.

Let's say you are bitten by a poisonous snake. You are told you will die in a few hours.

A friend tells you a certain doctor has the antidote for this snakebite. He gives you the address.

This knowledge enables you to quickly drive to this doctor's office. The doctor sees the snakebite, and immediately gives you a shot of the antidote. You survive.

What saved you from this snakebite? The doctor and his antidote. Knowledge simply enabled you to access this doctor and his antidote.

This is how salvation works. The word of God teaches you that you are a lost sinner on the way to hell. The word of God also teaches you that Jesus died for your sins and will save you if you trust him. This knowledge enables you to go to Jesus in your heart and trust or rely upon him to save you. Jesus saves you.

 

You disagree with Hebrews 11:1?

And you think that the spiritually dead, those who hate God and are in rebellion against him, are capable of this?

Faith allowed her to make that judgment. Faith wasn't the judgment itself.

And this is in no way relevant to the discussion.

Yes we must look to Jesus, but who looks to Jesus? Those drawn by the Father. The elect.

"But I said to you that you have seen Me, and yet do not believe. "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. "This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day." ... "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. - Jhn 6:36-40, 44 NASB

The crowd saw Jesus and his miracles, yet they didn't believe. Jesus explains why: those who are given to the Son by the Father are those who come to him. Beholding the Son and believing in him is clearly parallel to coming to the Son. The Father draws the sinner, gives him to the Son, the sinner beholds and believes in the Son, the Son receives (saves) the sinner, will never lose him nor cast him away and will raise him up on the last day.

From beginning to end it is the work of the Triune God.

You will say, "He draws all people according to John 12." But that can't be as ALL who are drawn WILL come to the Son:

"All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. ... "This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. - Jhn 6:37, 39 NASB

None that the Son is given, by the Father, will ever be lost. Those drawn are those saved. Therefore, if everyone is drawn, everyone is saved and universalism is true. Clearly not the case.

Regeneration occurs when the Spirit opens the heart of the sinner to receive the gospel. It works in accordance with gospel preaching. Why can't you understand this?

How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher? How will they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, "HOW BEAUTIFUL ARE THE FEET OF THOSE WHO BRING GOOD NEWS OF GOOD THINGS!" However, they did not all heed the good news; for Isaiah says, "LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT?" So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ. - Rom 10:14-17 NASB

Yes God has his chosen which will be saved. The God ordained means by which the elect are saved is through hearing the gospel.

How do you think this supports your position? The dead, the unregenerate, hear the words of Jesus and are brought to spiritual life! The dead don't bring themselves to life nor are they able. You believe that the one who is spiritually dead chooses to believe and thus brings himself back to life. You are confused and clearly don't understand what you rail against.

Your understanding of Calvinism is error.

 

Why can't you understand that you are contradicting yourself? First you say that only God has power to regenerate the lost. But then you say that the regenerate can trust the Son first, causing (earning really) his regeneration. This is contradictory.