I am CONFUSED about Lordship theology

[freeatlast]

Willing and doing are two different things. When LS advocates preach that you must forsake all that you have to follow Jesus as a condition to be saved (and some do), and they have never done so themselves, then it is hypocritical. I am not speaking of your particular situation. You may be the exception. If you are praise God. But rarely do I ever find anyone who has kept such a command. It is too demanding on their comfy lifestyle in America; they are not willing to sacrifice.

You keep saying that no one who preaches what the bible teaches about taking up the cross and being a disciple never does it. Who are you compraing them too? How do you know they are not?

Let me ask you some questions. You feel there there can a distinction between a disciple and a saint (a saved person) and all who are saved are not necessarily all disciples of Jesus. Now I think we would agree, please correct me if I am wrong, that no lost person is a disciple of Jesus. So if the lost are not disciples and according to your understanding a saved person can also not be a disciple then who is the saved person a disciple of? If the lost are followers (disciples) of their father the devil who is the father of the so called Christian who is not a disciple of Jesus based on your understanding?
I would add this. How about if the scripture means what it says, the passages below, and what the Lord said about many saying Lord, Lord will hear I never knew you is true although they claimed to be saved they were never disciples?


Matthew 10:38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.
--A condition of discipleship, not salvation. He is still speaking only to his disciples.

Matthew 10:39 He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.
--These are the same words found in Mark. He is speaking only to his disciples. It is discipleship, not salvation.

Luke 9:23,24
And he said to [them] all, If any [man] will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.
For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it.

Luke 14:27
And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.

 

[Havensdad]

Willing and doing are two different things. When LS advocates preach that you must forsake all that you have to follow Jesus as a condition to be saved (and some do), and they have never done so themselves, then it is hypocritical. I am not speaking of your particular situation. You may be the exception. If you are praise God. But rarely do I ever find anyone who has kept such a command. It is too demanding on their comfy lifestyle in America; they are not willing to sacrifice.

If they are persistently unwilling to do what God is commanding them to do, then they do not have faith. However, when you come to Christ, you actually DO give everything to Him. He might leave you in control over it, and allow you to continue to indulge in or use a certain thing or things, but it is no less surrendered to Him. "Forsaking all" does not mean that you throw it away; only that you surrender it to Jesus, for whatever He desires to do with it.

The Young Ruler did not have that faith, and so he went away lost.

 

[agedman]

Now I think we would agree, please correct me if I am wrong, that no lost person is a disciple of Jesus.

Was Judas Iscariot a disciple of Christ?

 

[freeatlast]

If they are persistently unwilling to do what God is commanding them to do, then they do not have faith. However, when you come to Christ, you actually DO give everything to Him. He might leave you in control over it, and allow you to continue to indulge in or use a certain thing or things, but it is no less surrendered to Him. "Forsaking all" does not mean that you throw it away; only that you surrender it to Jesus, for whatever He desires to do with it.

The Young Ruler did not have that faith, and so he went away lost.

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

 

[freeatlast]

Was Judas Iscariot a disciple of Christ?

In name only, but not in practice. Just like many are christians in name only, but not in practice. Both are lost.

 

[convicted1]

In name only, but not in practice. Just like many are christians in name only, but not in practice. Both are lost.

I am not so sure about that Brother. Wasn't he given the same power/authority to heal the sick, halt, lame, deaf, dumb, as the other eleven? I am thinking so.

 

[freeatlast]

I am not so sure about that Brother. Wasn't he given the same power/authority to heal the sick, halt, lame, deaf, dumb, as the other eleven? I am thinking so.

You don't think Judas was lost or are you saying he was saved and lost his salvation?

 

[saturneptune]

In name only, but not in practice. Just like many are christians in name only, but not in practice. Both are lost.

A fascinating study is to compare Judas and Peter. Both betrayed Jesus, etc, yet one was saved, the the other not.

Also, your posts seem very reasonable. Anyway, could you give an example of someone who comes to salvation by grace through faith, yet, still engages in blatant sin, then, comes back a second time to say Jesus is Lord of my life and repents of such sin?

Sometimes my wording is not great, but if the Lord calls someone to salvation, makes them able to respond to His grace, His offer of salvation, how could such a person say no. Given that, how could a person who is saved do anything but repent?

Do not get me wrong. There are thousands of individuals on Baptist local church rolls that are not saved. They have not darkened a doorway to a church in decades, or have sat in a pew and did nothing but eat pot lucks and gossiped, or some other pattern of no regeneration. There will be many Baptists in the Lake of Fire wishing that they were in glory where their Catholic counterparts are because some Catholics are saved despite their church. However, those unsaved Baptists are not going to come back to the Lord in five years and say, well guess its time to repent.

The bottom line is, those living in blantant, unrepentent sin were never saved in the first place. Another myth is sinless perfection after salvation. We all sin daily, and must ask the Lord for forgiveness daily.

Also, I want to take this moment to apologize to you for my part in the name calling during the depression threads. Yoru threads of late seem much more civil.

 

[convicted1]

You don't think Judas was lost or are you saying he was saved and lost his salvation?

I compare Judas Iscariot to King Saul(David's father-in-law). He did many things, and even he prophesied. Do you think he went to heaven after he fell upon his own sword and died?

They were under the Law until Jesus hung, bled, died, and arose the third morning. They did not have the permanent endwelling of the Holy Ghost until Jesus breathed upon them in John 20, and Judas was not there.

 

[agedman]

In name only, but not in practice. Just like many are christians in name only, but not in practice. Both are lost.

But that really wasn't the statement you made.

Your statement was that "no lost person is a disciple of Jesus."

I referred to Judas Iscariot who was both a disciple and an unbeliever.

Therefore, the statement (hypothesis) and the conclusions built from that statement would be faulty for the data shows the statement is in error.

There were many disciples who walked away in unbelief. This drew sharp contrast from the Lord in just who was His own and who wasn't.

An example of this phenomena would be what the Lord gave in the sower and seed parable.

 

[freeatlast]

A fascinating study is to compare Judas and Peter. Both betrayed Jesus, etc, yet one was saved, the the other not.

Yes, one lived his life in betrayal with no surrender and the other betrayed in one moment of his life while his life was one of surrender.

Anyway, could you give an example of someone who comes to salvation by grace through faith, yet, still engages in blatant sin, then, comes back a second time to say Jesus is Lord of my life and repents of such sin?


By engages I am not sure what you mean. if you mean commit a serious sin then yes I assume most if not all have. However if you mean live a daily lifestyle if sinning, no as according to scripture that cannot happen to a real believer 1John 3:9


Sometimes my wording is not great, but if the Lord calls someone to salvation, makes them able to respond to His grace, His offer of salvation, how could such a person say no. Given that, how could a person who is saved do anything but repent?


Yes there are thousands of examples. The Jews are a prime example. Jesus said this;
Luke 13:34
O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen [doth gather] her brood under [her] wings, and ye would not!

In other words they turned Him down.
The last part of the question I assume you are talking about turing from sin. They will if they are saved 1John 3:9


Do not get me wrong. There are thousands of individuals on Baptist local church rolls that are not saved. They have not darkened a doorway to a church in decades, or have sat in a pew and did nothing but eat pot lucks and gossiped, or some other pattern of no regeneration. There will be many Baptists in the Lake of Fire wishing that they were in glory where their Catholic counterparts are because some Catholics are saved despite their church. However, those unsaved Baptists are not going to come back to the Lord in five years and say, well guess its time to repent.

. We all sin daily, and must ask the Lord for forgiveness daily.


In this we disagree. There is no teaching in scripture that everyone who is saved sins every single day of their lives and that has nothing to do with sinless perfection. I find it sad that a Christian cannot make it through even one day out od 365 a year without sinning. I htink we have allowed those who do sin every day to put a guilt trip on those who seek not to sin every day by making it seem like they are claiming sinless perfection. The truth is we do not sin every second, we do not sin every minute, we do not sin every hour, so why would we sin every day? We are not even awake for the whole day and many would have us believe it is impossible to go just 16 hours with no sin. That is just not true and we should not fall for it.


Also, I want to take this moment to apologize to you for my part in the name calling during the depression threads. Your threads of late seem much more civil.


Thank you for the apology. From my standpoint it was never intended to be personal, just standing of ground in what I understand the bible to teach.

 

[freeatlast]

But that really wasn't the statement you made.

Your statement was that "no lost person is a disciple of Jesus."

I referred to Judas Iscariot who was both a disciple and an unbeliever.

Therefore, the statement (hypothesis) and the conclusions built from that statement would be faulty for the data shows the statement is in error.

There were many disciples who walked away in unbelief. This drew sharp contrast from the Lord in just who was His own and who wasn't.

An example of this phenomena would be what the Lord gave in the sower and seed parable.

In the context of the discussion what I said is correct.

 

[saturneptune]

I compare Judas Iscariot to King Saul(David's father-in-law). He did many things, and even he prophesied. Do you think he went to heaven after he fell upon his own sword and died?

They were under the Law until Jesus hung, bled, died, and arose the third morning. They did not have the permanent endwelling of the Holy Ghost until Jesus breathed upon them in John 20, and Judas was not there.

I always wondered why Judas was lost and Peter saved, beyond that is the way God decreed it. I read and reread the accounts of the two men. On the surface, they both betrayed the Lord, etc. However, Peter betrayed the Lord out of fear for his life. Peter loved the Lord, but was weak in faith. Judas, on the other hand, did not love the Lord. Every action he took was for self gratification, whether the betrayal, stealing money ,etc. Look at the reaction after each betrayal. Judas showed no remorse, in fact, put on quite a show as the guards arrested Jesus. Peter on the other hand, was in the middle of Godly sorrow the minute the rooster crowed. Can you imagine what was going through Peter's mind when his eyes met Jesus' eyes as He was being taken away?

I am not really sure why Judas expressed remorse and killed himself, but it was not a Godly sorrow. He may have been sorry for being part of a scheme to kill an innocent man, but Judas did not love Jesus for who He was. Judas probably thought Messiah meant a military ruler to free them from Roman oppression.

 

[convicted1]

I always wondered why Judas was lost and Peter saved, beyond that is the way God decreed it. I read and reread the accounts of the two men. On the surface, they both betrayed the Lord, etc. However, Peter betrayed the Lord out of fear for his life. Peter loved the Lord, but was weak in faith. Judas, on the other hand, did not love the Lord. Every action he took was for self gratification, whether the betrayal, stealing money ,etc. Look at the reaction after each betrayal. Judas showed no remorse, in fact, put on quite a show as the guards arrested Jesus. Peter on the other hand, was in the middle of Godly sorrow the minute the rooster crowed. Can you imagine what was going through Peter's mind when his eyes met Jesus' eyes as He was being taken away?

I am not really sure why Judas expressed remorse and killed himself, but it was not a Godly sorrow. He may have been sorry for being part of a scheme to kill an innocent man, but Judas did not love Jesus for who He was. Judas probably thought Messiah meant a military ruler to free them from Roman oppression.

But the crux of what I posted was that Judas was given the same power/authority to do what the other eleven did, correct?

God used Saul, and he prophesied as the Spirit moved upon him, but he fell upon his own sword killing himself. Is he in heaven now? I honestly don't know, but I wouldn't be willing to swap places w/him to find out, either.

God used a donkey to speak, as well. Is this donkey in heaven now?

Now that I have completely derailed this thread, please accept my apology as I try to get it back on track.

To me, Lordship salvation is a complete surrender from trusting in yourself, to trusting in God. I had to surrender my will to Him, and when I did, He did a work that only He could do.

 

[freeatlast]

I compare Judas Iscariot to King Saul(David's father-in-law). He did many things, and even he prophesied. Do you think he went to heaven after he fell upon his own sword and died?

They were under the Law until Jesus hung, bled, died, and arose the third morning. They did not have the permanent endwelling of the Holy Ghost until Jesus breathed upon them in John 20, and Judas was not there.

All the mechanics, and timing of the change from the Old to New is really difficult to know. I don't really think they got the Spirit until Pentecost. I think what they got in John 20 was the promise of the Spirit who finally came at Pentecost, which I base on Luke 24:49 but transitions in the bible are sometimes difficult to fully know when and how so I would not be dogmatic about that.
I think another question is would the Lord use a lost person to carry out His work? I think the answer is yes way more then we know. I think it is why some people who think that they are saved but are really lost remain in the lost state. I base that on 2Thess 2:11.
As to Saul I believe he was lost, never saved and of course the same with Judas.

 

[freeatlast]

To me, Lordship salvation is a complete surrender from trusting in yourself, to trusting in God. I had to surrender my will to Him, and when I did, He did a work that only He could do.

Yes I agree.

 

[agedman]

In the context of the discussion what I said is correct.

No the statement and conclusions drawn from the statement cannot be correct because the data does not support the statement, even in the context of the discussion.

As the hypothesis is in error, because the data does not show support, then it follows that the concluding statements following, which rely upon the reference to the original hypothesis, are also askew.

By declaring the sum of the post was in context with the discussion (as you did in the above quote) and being shown that the statement from which the post draws it conclusions as faulty, then it follows that the post is in error.

That, by deduction, the opposite of what you posted must then be taken as the truth.

 

[DHK]

You keep saying that no one who preaches what the bible teaches about taking up the cross and being a disciple never does it. Who are you compraing them too? How do you know they are not?

The Great Commission is stated in more than one place. You make it contradict itself.
In Mark it says: "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature."
The command is to preach the gospel. Whoever believes will be saved. It is simple and straight forward.

In Matthew it says, "having gone, disciple all nations, baptizing them..." The command is to disciple. There is a process involved in being a disciple. First he must be saved, then he must be baptized, then he learns "all things whatsoever I have taught you." It is a process of sanctification. It is a process of learning. Not every believer is a disciple immediately after conversion. I know I wasn't. I had to come to the place in my life where I grew enough to give up certain worldly practices. With Saul it was instantaneous. He is the only one I can point to. Others grow in the Lord gradually. The Corinthians were like that.

1Cor.3, Paul tells them that they were carnal, not yet able to eat strong meat. They were still on the bottle. They were not growing as fast as they ought to. You would have probably condemned them as unsaved, but Paul didn't. They really weren't disciples with all that carnality that they were swimming in. They weren't following the Lord. In fact some were following Apollos, some Paul, some other leaders, and so on. There was divisions. They were carnal. But they were Christians, addressed as believers. They had not given over everything to the Lord.

Later on we find these same Christians coming to the Lord's Supper drunk and as gluttonous Christians. They were carnal. Even then they were divisive gathering together in their little cliques, not willing to share their abundance with the poor of the church. The were carnal, carnal but Christians. Again, you probably would have condemned them as unsaved; but Paul didn't.

Let me ask you some questions. You feel there there can a distinction between a disciple and a saint (a saved person) and all who are saved are not necessarily all disciples of Jesus. Now I think we would agree, please correct me if I am wrong, that no lost person is a disciple of Jesus.

That is correct.
So if the lost are not disciples and according to your understanding a saved person can also not be a disciple then who is the saved person a disciple of?[/quote]
An illogical fallacy. A non sequitor.
If my car doesn't run smoothly like a car should,
then what does it run like? A horse??
Your question does not make sense. It is illogical. It presumes an answer not in existence.

If the lost are followers (disciples) of their father the devil who is the father of the so called Christian who is not a disciple of Jesus based on your understanding?

If you FAL are not following your father (earthly father), then who are you a disciple of? Hitler?
You are using illogical paradigms.

I would add this. How about if the scripture means what it says, the passages below, and what the Lord said about many saying Lord, Lord will hear I never knew you is true although they claimed to be saved they were never disciples?

Matthew 10:38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.
--A condition of discipleship, not salvation. He is still speaking only to his disciples.

Matthew 10:39 He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.
--These are the same words found in Mark. He is speaking only to his disciples. It is discipleship, not salvation.

Luke 9:23,24
And he said to [them] all, If any [man] will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.
For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it.

Luke 14:27
And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.

Do you obey all these Scriptures?
Have you forsaken all and followed Jesus?
Do you know what it means to "take up your cross"?

 

[freeatlast]

No the statement and conclusions drawn from the statement cannot be correct because the data does not support the statement, even in the context of the discussion.

As the hypothesis is in error, because the data does not show support, then it follows that the concluding statements following, which rely upon the reference to the original hypothesis, are also askew.

By declaring the sum of the post was in context with the discussion (as you did in the above quote) and being shown that the statement from which the post draws it conclusions as faulty, then it follows that the post is in error.

That, by deduction, the opposite of what you posted must then be taken as the truth.

Like I said, In the context of the discussion what I said is correct

 

[DHK]

If they are persistently unwilling to do what God is commanding them to do, then they do not have faith.

First, I didn't say persistently.
Second, I don't know the heart and neither do you. I leave the decision up to God. He knows the hearts of men, not me; not you.

However, when you come to Christ, you actually DO give everything to Him. He might leave you in control over it, and allow you to continue to indulge in or use a certain thing or things, but it is no less surrendered to Him. "Forsaking all" does not mean that you throw it away; only that you surrender it to Jesus, for whatever He desires to do with it.

And if that is a condition for salvation it is a works based salvation which is heresy. For by grace are you saved through faith...not of works.
Salvation is not "for by surrender are you saved." Nowhere in the Bible does it teach that.

The Young Ruler did not have that faith, and so he went away lost.

The rich young ruler did not get saved because he desired his riches more than he desired God. That is what Jesus demonstrated. It was a demonstration of his assertion that "I have kept the law from my youth up," was a lie. He did not. He coveted his riches more than Christ.