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I and the Father are one

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SavedByGrace

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Fiction, as the world was made "through" God the Son, thus God the Son was acting as the Father's agent.

I suggest that you take time to study the language that the Bible was written, and then you will have a better understanding of what it actually says.

There are some, even those who are Greek scholars, who have the misunderstanding of the use of the Greek prepositions. In John 1:3, for example, where we have the Greek preposition, "dia" used, which is usually translated as "by", and in "through", as you say, "agent". But, it is very clear from places like Galatians 1:1, and Hebrews 2:10, where it is used in the former for both Jesus and the Father as united; and the latter for the Father Himself, that "dia" does not always have the meaning of "agent". In the Galatians text it is understood as "with", as both Jesus and the Father are described in the one use of "dia", which is the original meaning of the Greek preposition, from Homer's time. The place in Hebrews it is used for, "the author", and not "agent". Since The Three Persons in the Trinity were JOINTLY Creators, the use of "dia" is best understood in Creation as "with".
 

Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I suggest that you take time to study the language that the Bible was written, and then you will have a better understanding of what it actually says.

There are some, even those who are Greek scholars, who have the misunderstanding of the use of the Greek prepositions. In John 1:3, for example, where we have the Greek preposition, "dia" used, which is usually translated as "by", and in "through", as you say, "agent". But, it is very clear from places like Galatians 1:1, and Hebrews 2:10, where it is used in the former for both Jesus and the Father as united; and the latter for the Father Himself, that "dia" does not always have the meaning of "agent". In the Galatians text it is understood as "with", as both Jesus and the Father are described in the one use of "dia", which is the original meaning of the Greek preposition, from Homer's time. The place in Hebrews it is used for, "the author", and not "agent". Since The Three Persons in the Trinity were JOINTLY Creators, the use of "dia" is best understood in Creation as "with".
Just like many other Calvinists, SBG wastes words claiming I am unqualified.
Did anyone say "dia" always used used to indicating agency? Nope.
Did Hebrews 1:2 says the world was made, with or through God the Son?

Whenever scripture indicates a posters view is in error, many times the mistaken poster will rewrite the verse.
Hebrews 1:2 indicates God the Son was operating at the behest of the Father, taking direction from the Father.
 

SavedByGrace

Well-Known Member
Just like many other Calvinists, SBG wastes words claiming I am unqualified.
Did anyone say "dia" always used used to indicating agency? Nope.
Did Hebrews 1:2 says the world was made, with or through God the Son?

Whenever scripture indicates a posters view is in error, many times the mistaken poster will rewrite the verse.
Hebrews 1:2 indicates God the Son was operating at the behest of the Father, taking direction from the Father.

:rolleyes:
 

Yeshua1

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Just like many other Calvinists, SBG wastes words claiming I am unqualified.
Did anyone say "dia" always used used to indicating agency? Nope.
Did Hebrews 1:2 says the world was made, with or through God the Son?

Whenever scripture indicates a posters view is in error, many times the mistaken poster will rewrite the verse.
Hebrews 1:2 indicates God the Son was operating at the behest of the Father, taking direction from the Father.
The Trinity always agree with each other, as no Boss, All are the Boss!
 

SavedByGrace

Well-Known Member
Hebrews 1:2 indicates God the Son was operating at the behest of the Father, taking direction from the Father.
Thus scripture teaches God the Son operated in a subservient way before the incarnation occurred.

so, based your your own reasoning, Jesus Christ can never be coequal to the Father, not can He be Yahweh, which by definition means "eternal and immutable", and "self-existing", that is not depending on another. As the LXX has it for Exodus 3:14, "Ἐγώ εἰμι ὁ ὤν", which is "I am the Eternal One". Hence, Jesus Christ IS as much as Almighty God, coequal, coessential, and coeternal, as The Father and Holy Spirit.
 

Van

Well-Known Member
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so, based your your own reasoning, Jesus Christ can never be coequal to the Father, not can He be Yahweh, which by definition means "eternal and immutable", and "self-existing", that is not depending on another. As the LXX has it for Exodus 3:14, "Ἐγώ εἰμι ὁ ὤν", which is "I am the Eternal One". Hence, Jesus Christ IS as much as Almighty God, coequal, coessential, and coeternal, as The Father and Holy Spirit.
Why are you wasting words making false claims about my view.
If God the Son did not think equality with God was a thing to be grasped, it follows that God the Son is equal to both the Father and Holy Spirit in His divinity. God the Son is Yahweh. God the Son is eternal.
None of that diversion is in dispute.
Did God the Son operate in a subservient way to God the Father before the incarnation? Yes, Hebrews 1:2, John 1:3. God the Son took direction from God the Father.
 

SavedByGrace

Well-Known Member
Why are you wasting words making false claims about my view.
If God the Son did not think equality with God was a thing to be grasped, it follows that God the Son is equal to both the Father and Holy Spirit in His divinity. God the Son is Yahweh. God the Son is eternal.
None of that diversion is in dispute.
Did God the Son operate in a subservient way to God the Father before the incarnation? Yes, Hebrews 1:2, John 1:3. God the Son took direction from God the Father.

both NT passages you quote do NOT show what you want them to
 

percho

Well-Known Member
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Folks, SBG still refuses to answer a very simple, yes or no question. So he correctly points out I do not know what point he was trying to make.

As far as posting with clarity, I submit his post demonstrates a lack of communication skill.

Did he deny the Father and Christ are one essence? Nope he deflected.
Does being divine necessarily mean equality in all things? He does not say.

So much for a study that cannot be questioned.

What do you mean by essence? Is your essence time related?

I believe the Father and the Son are of the same essence however I do not believe that Christ in the days of his flesh were of the same essence.

Today I do not believe the Christ the Son of the Living God, Jesus, by name can die yet I believe for about thirty three years that same Jesus could die and I do not believe the Father can or could die.

Now what do I mean by Father?

Jesus answered, 'If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing; it is my Father who is glorifying me, of whom ye say that He is your God; and ye have not known Him, and I have known Him, and if I say that I have not known Him, I shall be like you -- speaking falsely; but I have known Him, and His word I keep; Abraham, your father, was glad that he might see my day; and he saw, and did rejoice.' John 8:54-56

I believe the one they were calling their God was the Father. Where was the Son of the Father?

And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

How was that preaching the gospel unto Abraham? How did Abraham see the day of Christ?

Gen 22:2 And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.

What did Abraham believe concerning that? He believed the Gospel, because he saw the day of Christ.

Heb 11:18,19 YLT By (To) faith Abraham hath offered up Isaac, being tried, and the only begotten he did offer up who did receive the promises, reckoning that even out of the dead God is able to raise up, whence also in a figure he did receive him.

Who in figure did he receive? Who is the one and only to date who has been raised out of the dead to die no more, no more to return to corruption?

He saw: God hath in full completed this to us their children, having raised up Jesus, as also in the second Psalm it hath been written, My Son thou art -- I to-day have begotten thee. 'And that He did raise him up out of the dead, no more to return to corruption, he hath said thus -- I will give to you the faithful kindnesses of David; Acts 13:33,34 YLT

This is the day, the LORD hath made; we will rejoice and be glad in it. Ps 118:24 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. Col 1:18
 

Yeshua1

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Why are you wasting words making false claims about my view.
If God the Son did not think equality with God was a thing to be grasped, it follows that God the Son is equal to both the Father and Holy Spirit in His divinity. God the Son is Yahweh. God the Son is eternal.
None of that diversion is in dispute.
Did God the Son operate in a subservient way to God the Father before the incarnation? Yes, Hebrews 1:2, John 1:3. God the Son took direction from God the Father.
How does God boss God?
 

Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
What do you mean by essence? SNIP

Divine essence refers to God's god-like characteristics. God is spirit. God is love. God is eternal. God is immutable - His character and attributes never change. God is all powerful (omnipotent). God is just. God is merciful. Certainly God the Son and the Holy Spirit are equal to God the Father in these divine attributes.
 
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