I and the Father are one

[SavedByGrace]

I have no idea what either of you are trying to say....

I have said what I have in the OP, some others are trying to confuse this

 

[SavedByGrace]

Actually, ἐσμεν has the smooth breathing mark, not the rough, so it is esmen. However, your translation is correct if overly literal, so carry on.

right, my mistake with the English transliteration.

 

[SavedByGrace]

Is the purpose of SBG study of John 10:30 to demonstrate "One God in Three Persons?"

NO! It is to show from the passage that the Essential unity of the Father and Son are taught in this verse. This is because there are some, like John Calvin, who argue against this meaning here.

 

[SavedByGrace]

So you believe John 10:30 indicates the Father and Christ are 100% equal in all things? Now if the Father is greater in some things, what are they?

ONLY when Jesus Christ was on earth, was the Father "greater" than Him. Jesus is the eternal God, Yahweh, exactly as The Father and The Holy Spirit are. No Person in the Godhead is any "better, greater", than the other. The Three are 100% COEQUAL

 

[Van]

NO! It is to show from the passage that the Essential unity of the Father and Son are taught in this verse. This is because there are some, like John Calvin, who argue against this meaning here.

Thanks, and I agree, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit operate in unity, for the same purpose.

 

[SavedByGrace]

Thanks, and I agree, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit operate in unity, for the same purpose.

not essentially one?

 

[37818]

So you believe John 10:30 indicates the Father and Christ are 100% equal in all things? Now if the Father is greater in some things, what are they?

By your reply I am not sure you will understand a further explanation. The Father being greater on account of His Son's incarnation. Or in Jesus' own explanation, John 13:16, ". . . Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him. . . ." Jesus having been sent by His Father by means of the incarnation.

 

[Van]

So you believe John 10:30 indicates the Father and Christ are 100% equal in all things? Now if the Father is greater in some things, what are they?
The Son acts in subordination to the Father, while being equal in divinity, essence, and purpose.

Is the subordination only due to the incarnation. No. Hebrews 1:2: in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.

Thus as the pre-incarnate "Son" the Second Person of the Trinity acted in accordance with the Father.

 

[37818]

. . . the subordination . . .

Not all Trinitarians agree on this. It is my understanding the subordination has only to do with the presonhood. In that the three Presons being the one and the same LORD [Yahweh] God there is no subordination.

 

[SavedByGrace]

Is the subordination only due to the incarnation. No. Hebrews 1:2: in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.

Thus as the pre-incarnate "Son" the Second Person of the Trinity acted in accordance with the Father.

You will also note in Hebrews 1, where the Father is addressing Jesus Christ:

"προς δε τον υιον ο θρονος σου ο θεος εις τον αιωνα του αιωνος ραβδος ευθυτητος η ραβδος της βασιλειας σου"

Here the only possible translation in English is :

"but as to the Son, “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, A scepter of uprightness is the scepter of Your kingdom"

Not as some have twisted it to read: "God is Your throne..."

As it is the Father Who is here addressing the Son as "God", there can be no "subordination" as there are no degrees of Deity within the Godhead.

Further, in this chapter, in verse 10 and following, the Father continues to address the Son, and here ascribes to Him the actual Creation of the Universe. Note that the words are a quotation from Psalm 102:26-28. Again, the Deity of Jesus Christ is here attested to by the Father.

 

[SavedByGrace]

Is the subordination only due to the incarnation. No. Hebrews 1:2: in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.

Thus as the pre-incarnate "Son" the Second Person of the Trinity acted in accordance with the Father.

This is "subordinationism", which is impossible in the "essential" Godhead

 

[SavedByGrace]

By your reply I am not sure you will understand a further explanation. The Father being greater on account of His Son's incarnation. Or in Jesus' own explanation, John 13:16, ". . . Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him. . . ." Jesus having been sent by His Father by means of the incarnation.

John 17:5; Philippians 2:5-11; Hebrews 2:7, 9 (“for a little while”) for example, speak of the "subordination as being "temporary", while Jesus was on earth.

 

[37818]

John 17:5; Philippians 2:5-11; Hebrews 2:7, 9 (“for a little while”) for example, speak of the "subordination as being "temporary", while Jesus was on earth.

It is my understanding Christ as God is never subordinate. Also Christ as a man is now so for eternity, Hebrews 13:8, 1 Timothy 2:5, 1 Corinthians 15:28 to be "subject," that is, eternally subordinate. Christ nevertheless never ceases to be God without subordination.

 

[SavedByGrace]

It is my understanding Christ as God is never subordinate. Also Christ as a man is now so for eternity, Hebrews 13:8, 1 Timothy 2:5, 1 Corinthians 15:28 to be "subject," that is, eternally subordinate. Christ nevertheless never ceases to be God without subordination.

The Person of Jesus Christ, the God-Man, is one of the Great Mysteries in the Bible. Eternally Yahweh and EQUAL to The Father and Holy Spirit. I am not too sure you can press 1 Corinthians 15:28 to show the "subjection" of Jesus to the Father post-Ascension, which John 17:5 rules out.

 

[Calminian]

I don't understand what you are getting at? This is a indepth study on a very important passage in the Bible, where Jesus claims Deity and Equality with the Father. Why is its length a problem with you? Do you doubt what is said? if you have any valid objections, then share them here

He wants to know if you deny the Trinity. Are you advocating oneness theology?

 

[George Antonios]

“ego kai ho patros hen hesmen” (John 10:30). Which literally translated reads: “I and the Father, one we are”.

Is Jesus here speaking only of “unity of will and purpose” with The Father, as some suppose? That the Greek “hen”, does have this meaning, is clear from the Prayer of Jesus in John chapter 17, where He says, “That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.”. Here Jesus is speaking of the “unity” of believers, with themselves, and in their relation to the Lord, as He and His Father “one”. And the Apostle Paul tells the Philipian Church, “Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind” The precise meaning must be determined from the context where the word is being used.

We must look at the entire context in which Jesus uses the words: “ego kai ho patros hen hesmen”. In verse 28 Jesus says, "and I give them eternal life, and in no wise shall they perish forever" (Greek text). John 1:4 informs us the Jesus is the “source” of life, “in Him was life”. There is another reading of this verse, which is probably the original. Instead of “ζωὴ ἦν”, (was life, in the imperfect tense); we have “ζωὴ ἐστιν” (is life, the present, continuance tense). Both are from around the 2nd century A.D. The use of the “imperfect” tense in the Greek, does not always speak of “past action”, as in our English “was”, this can be misleading. In the Greek, it does also have the meaning of, “an incomplete action”, one that is still in its course, and not yet completed. It is like saying, was/is. In Acts 3:15, Jesus is called the "archegos of life" (Prince, KJV). The meaning is, “first cause, originator, author”, of all life. It is as the “Author” of all life, that Jesus is able to “give eternal life” to all those who believe in Him for their salvation. This would be impossible if Jesus Himself is not Almighty God, but, as some suppose, a mere created being! Jesus then goes on to say in this verse, “And not anyone shall snatch them out of My hand”. The life of the believer is completely “secure” in the Protective Power of the Lord Jesus Christ. These words spoken by Jesus here, are spoken by Yahweh of His People in Deuteronomy, “See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god beside me; I kill and I make alive; I wound and I heal; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand.” (32:39). Again, in the Prophet Isaiah we read, “Also henceforth I am He; there is none who can deliver from my hand; I work, and who can turn it back?” (43:13). It is very clear from what Jesus says in John 10:28, and what we read from what Yahweh says in these passages in the Old Testament, that He means Absolute Power and Protection and Authority. Revelation 3:7, speaks of just this of Jesus, “...Who opens and no one will shut, Who shuts and no one opens.”. Further to this, in John 10:29, Jesus goes on to say, "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand"

That the Father was “greater” than Jesus Christ during His Incarnation, is evident from a few passages (Luke 2:52, 24:26; John 5:19, 14:28, 17:5; Philippians 2:5-11; Hebrews 2: 7, 9, etc). However, this “greatness” is not in the Essential Nature in the Godhead, where the Three Persons are 100% coequal.

Verse 30 which follows on from this, is where Jesus speaks of His “Essential Unity” with His father.

The Greek here is very important. Jesus as the speaker, “I”, distinguishes Himself from “THE Father”, where the definite article in the Greek, “ho [the]” is used with “pater [Father]”. That the Father and Son are NOT one and the same PERSON, is evident from the use of the masculine plural, “hesmen [WE are]”, which is impossible if only ONE PERSON was meant. Then, we have the neuter singular, “hen [one]”, which again shows that ONE PERSON cannot be meant, which would have required the masculine “heis”, which is not the case. The use of the neuter singular “hen”, is to show the “UNITY” of the ESSENCE or NATURE, of God the Father and God the Son.

The Jews perfectly understood what Jesus meant, as they again took up stones to kill Him (verse 31). And, when Jesus asks them why they wanted to stone Him, they replied: “The Jews answered Him, saying, We do not stone You concerning a good work, but concerning blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself God.”. The Jews heard what Jesus said in these verses, and they understood that He was here claiming to be God. The meaning of verse 10 to these Jews, was more than simply a “unity of will and purpose”, because, as God's Representative on earth (which is what Jesus says in verses 34-36), Jesus here actually says that He was also of the same, “Authority and Power” of God. The Jews in the Old Testament, when they had their judges, who administrated on behalf of the Lord, are called “gods”, as in “representing” God on earth. Jesus, as THE Son of God, and Himself God, has a Higher Authority when on earth. This is also understood in chapter 5 of John's Gospel, when Jesus heals a man on the Sabbath Day, and the Jews wanted to kill Him for doing this (16). Jesus responds to their criticism, by saying, “But Jesus answered them, My Father works until now, and I work”. That He was not working on His own on the Sabbath, but His own Father (ο πατηρ μου), was also working with Him, on the Sabbath Day! These words enraged the Jews, who responded, “Because of this, therefore, the Jews were seeking the more to kill Him, for not only did He break the sabbath, but also called God His own Father, making Himself equal to God”. Note that Jesus never objected to the accusations that the Jews made against Him, when they said that He “claimed” to be equal to the Father, and therefore God. If, as some suppose, that Jesus is no more than a “Good Teacher”, or, One Who merely, like the Prophets of the Old Testament, were no more than God’s Representative on earth, as the OT judges and Prophets were, then we can be very sure, that Jesus would have corrected their mistakes. This He never does, because He IS Almighty God.

I got that Jesus is God Almighty from my Arabic SVD and English King James Bible.

 

[SavedByGrace]

I got that Jesus is God Almighty from my Arabic SVD and English King James Bible.

sounds good, meaning what?

 

[SavedByGrace]

He wants to know if you deny the Trinity. Are you advocating oneness theology?

have you read what I have written? what do you think?

 

[Calminian]

have you read what I have written? what do you think?

Not everything, no. It's not an accusation. Just asking.

 

[Yeshua1]

So you believe John 10:30 indicates the Father and Christ are 100% equal in all things? Now if the Father is greater in some things, what are they?

The Son acts in subordination to the Father, while being equal in divinity, essence, and purpose.

He was PNLY temp subordination, while here upon the earth, as His "glory: that he had with the Father was to be restored at His ascension!