I believe in predestination and free will.....??

[Allan]

No arrogance intended. If the Bible says God "predestined" us (and it does) why do people feel the need to explain that away, until it means the OPPOSITE of what it said?

The Bible says God "predestined" us. Why can't we just say "O.k. God, I don't understand that, but I will trust ya", instead of saying "No, MY willpower HAS to be involved in this somewhere! I AM the master of my little universe."

The fact is, without these types of fallen human feelings, there would be no reason to explain this huge amount of scripture away. We would just say "Oh, God said it. I will believe it."

Actually brother, the word 'predestined' isn't used to describe our salvation but actaully our conforming to the image of Christ. It is used for this because of the word "destination" which basically means a desired 'end'.

I will agree with the premise however (of your argument regarding predestined to salvation) that those whom God 'ordained' to eternal life are those whom He foreknew and therefore "predestined" THEM to be conformed to Christ.

However the ordaining view is somewhat different in our theological views. Whereas you hold that God decided to save some and then determined how He would save them. My view states that God determined how He would save and thus that decision determined all those who will be saved (though their salvation was not based upon mans decision but God choice in how He wanted to bring salvation).

Thus the view of 'ordained' in my perspecitive is that it refers to all those whom God foreknew would be of faith. Your states much the same but in a different perspective that 'ordained' refers to all those God chose to save by giving them faith.

 

[Me4Him]

A baby is desperately wicked. That is total depravity. Yet "sin is not imputed, where there is no law"; therefore, although they are desperately wicked, the sin is not counted against them. It does not say "there is no sin"; it says it is not "imputed" (counted against them). Jesus said "NO MAN CAN COME UNLESS..." what do YOU think that means?

No sin, no wickedness imputed.

If God's not willing for any to perish and none comes except God's calls, what will God have to do to "keep his word", call all???

The Bible says we are predestined. If you wish to trust YOUR measly little human brain over that of the very Words of the Creator of the Universe, go ahead.

No, the Bible doesn't say we are predestined, the scripture say we are knowledge of sin/consequences and can either repent/be saved or continue/be damned.

predestination by God's will make God out to be "LYING", because some do perish against his stated will that none perish.

I tend to think God is smarter than me. I will trust Him when He says we are predestined, that ALL people are "desperately wicked", that all were subjected to the guilt of Adam's transgressions, etc.

How do you know you're a sinner, by law???

Will God force you to "repent" or leave that choice up to you???

But you go on trusting your human wisdom. Let me know how that works out for you.

One problem with being "Deceived" is that you don't know it.

 

[Havensdad]

Context is everything when defining a word. The same word also means to entice. I do not deny that God must draws us but the scriptures plainly states that all men are drawn.
Joh 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

That's nice. But Jesus didn't say that "no one can come to me unless I draw them to myself". He said unless the FATHER draws them. This is reiterated in other areas, when Jesus speaks of all those who come to Him being "given by the father".

Sorry, wrong again.

Yes it does say that but it doesn't say to what they will be raised up to does it?

This is preposterous. Every time in scripture when the word anistēmi is used, it either refers to the resurrection of believers, or the resurrection of Christ itself. It is NEVER used of unsaved.

Not only that, this sentence would be absolutely redundant and silly if interpreted to mean it to refer to anyone other than saved individuals. This is REALLY a stretch.

Not so in the original Language. I know you were hoping to base your entire belief on that one verse but it won't hold water. I don't avoid it but tell you the truth of that verse. In the Greek it reads "And the nations rejoiced and glorified the word of the Lord and believed as many as were appointed to eternal life." From Greens interlinear. Oh I know now your going to tell me all about the grammar involved but 2000 years ago there were no rules of grammar.

Your lack of knowledge astounds me. Just because the rules of grammar as we have them written out today did not exist, does not mean they did not apply. Without grammar, communication is IMPOSSIBLE. YES, this sentence means exactly what it says in the english, which is WHY even more 'Arminian' translations (translated by free will leaning folks) NEVER make this argument. Only someone COMPLETELY IGNORANT of Greek could possibly say such a thing.

I again, ask you to show a single knowledgeable Greek scholar who agrees with what you have stated. It is foolish.

BTW, EVEN THE WAY YOU QUOTED IT: it means the same thing as the English. "and believed AS MANY as were appointed to eternal life". Although it sounds like Yoda, the "as many" is still applied to those who were appointed, NOT to those who believed: as many who were "appointed to eternal life" believed.

Grace is still through faith and no matter whether you believe it or not doesn't affect it's truth. You simply cannot have Grace with out having faith first.

You do understand that "through" denotes "means" not "cause", right? In other words, if I a doctor saves me "through" giving me penicillin , the "means" is completely irrelevant? If he saves me through ampicillin instead, the result is the same. YOU are trying to make the Medicine save us THROUGH the doctor.
.

Good for you. You got it right that time when you just said."FAITH is only the MEANS by which God distributes his free grace." No faith No grace.
MB

No, the opposite. No Grace, No Faith.

 

[MB]

That's nice. But Jesus didn't say that "no one can come to me unless I draw them to myself". He said unless the FATHER draws them. This is reiterated in other areas, when Jesus speaks of all those who come to Him being "given by the father".

Sorry, wrong again.

Jesus is God and God is Jesus or maybe you believe there are three God's. Those who come to Him are the whosoevers.

This is preposterous. Every time in scripture when the word anistēmi is used, it either refers to the resurrection of believers, or the resurrection of Christ itself. It is NEVER used of unsaved.

If it's OK with you I would rather not place my trust in what you claim.

Not only that, this sentence would be absolutely redundant and silly if interpreted to mean it to refer to anyone other than saved individuals. This is REALLY a stretch.

The only stretch is the one you place on it yourself

Your lack of knowledge astounds me. Just because the rules of grammar as we have them written out today did not exist, does not mean they did not apply.

Yes it does. Ever try reading the 1611 version of the KJV.

Without grammar, communication is IMPOSSIBLE.

No it isn't. They didn't have grammar 2000years ago. The whole reason they come up with grammar was to make it eaiser to understand. It's obvious they invented grammar for this very reason. If they already understood language with out it there would have been no need for it.

YES, this sentence means exactly what it says in the english, which is WHY even more 'Arminian' translations (translated by free will leaning folks) NEVER make this argument. Only someone COMPLETELY IGNORANT of Greek could possibly say such a thing.

Sorry act 13:48 has been shown to be a mistranslation. It isn't anything new for a Calvinist to reinterpret scripture to say what they prefer. Even with it being translated as you presume it to be it wouldn't make any difference because the majority of scripture settles the matter. You're wrong. Grace comes through Faith. No faith , No grace.

I again, ask you to show a single knowledgeable Greek scholar who agrees with what you have stated. It is foolish.

BTW, EVEN THE WAY YOU QUOTED IT: it means the same thing as the English. "and believed AS MANY as were appointed to eternal life". Although it sounds like Yoda, the "as many" is still applied to those who were appointed, NOT to those who believed: as many who were "appointed to eternal life" believed.

You do understand that "through" denotes "means" not "cause", right? In other words, if I a doctor saves me "through" giving me penicillin , the "means" is completely irrelevant? If he saves me through ampicillin instead, the result is the same. YOU are trying to make the Medicine save us THROUGH the doctor.
.No, the opposite. No Grace, No Faith.

Faith doesn't come through grace. Grace comes through faith any Greek scholar reading scripture should know this to be true. Why would anyone place trust in the guy who feels he has to insult those he disagrees with?

If I were a Greek scholar as you claim to be I'd have something better to do than this.
MB

 

[Havensdad]

Jesus is God and God is Jesus or maybe you believe there are three God's. Those who come to Him are the whosoevers.

I can't believe what you have just stated. You apparently have no knowledge of the Trinity, either.

Jesus is God, the Father is God and the Spirit is God. BUT Jesus IS NOT the Father, the Father IS NOT the Son, etc. THREE PERSONS, not three modes.

The Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit have different functions. When the Bible says "the Spirit descended on Jesus like a dove", do you believe that was the Father?? Are you a modalist, denying the Trinity?

If it's OK with you I would rather not place my trust in what you claim.

The Bible? O.k. Glad you at least admit it.

The only stretch is the one you place on it yourself

Brilliant.
:tonofbricks:

Yes it does. Ever try reading the 1611 version of the KJV.

Sure. From the 1611 Bible:

48: And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

From the ESV:

Act 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.

From the ASV

Act 13:48 And as the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of God: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

There is NO translation, NOR Study Bible, which suggests what you do, including Bibles written, according to you, before there was any grammar (which if true would make all of our Bibles useless: for what noun connects to what verb? What word is that adjective describing? Silliness)

No it isn't. They didn't have grammar 2000years ago. The whole reason they come up with grammar was to make it eaiser to understand. It's obvious they invented grammar for this very reason. If they already understood language with out it there would have been no need for it.

Yes they did. When one spoke a noun, it still connected to it's verb in the same way. They might not have had an "official" grammar defined as we do today, but the words still connected in the same way. Language would be unintelligible unless you knew what adjective was attached to what noun, etc. "Is that a blue chair, or is the person sitting in it blue? Or is the chair sitting on the person? Did He hand that man a drink and he drank it, or was it the reverse?"
There was Grammar (at least in the broad way you are attempting to define it).

Sorry act 13:48 has been shown to be a mistranslation.

Could you please name the Greek scholar who believes as you do? I keep asking...

No one has ever disputed the word order of that translation to my knowledge.

It isn't anything new for a Calvinist to reinterpret scripture to say what they prefer.

HILLARIOUS!!! I am reading it as it is written! You are the one who is redefining scripture!

Even with it being translated as you presume it to be it wouldn't make any difference because the majority of scripture settles the matter. You're wrong. Grace comes through Faith. No faith , No grace.

Simple question: who does God have mercy on? (Hint: It's in Romans).

Faith doesn't come through grace. Grace comes through faith any Greek scholar reading scripture should know this to be true. Why would anyone place trust in the guy who feels he has to insult those he disagrees with?

Nope. Grace comes from God. He distributes it through Faith. Grace is the determining factor (the "who"), and Faith is the means (HOW he distributes it).

If I were a Greek scholar as you claim to be I'd have something better to do than this.
MB

LOL: I never claimed to be a Greek Scholar. Truthfully, other than self study, I only have a single year of Greek. But I can read: and even the people who agree with your theology would state you are incorrect.

 

[MB]

I can't believe what you have just stated. You apparently have no knowledge of the Trinity, either.

Jesus is God, the Father is God and the Spirit is God. BUT Jesus IS NOT the Father, the Father IS NOT the Son, etc. THREE PERSONS, not three modes.

The Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit have different functions. When the Bible says "the Spirit descended on Jesus like a dove", do you believe that was the Father?? Are you a modalist, denying the Trinity?

As in the words of Ronald Regan "There you go again"
Are they not all one.
1Jn 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

The Bible? O.k. Glad you at least admit it.

Ah but you're not the Word are you? I know you'd like me to think you are. Sorry to disappoint you.

Brilliant.

Do you really think so. I think you're just being kind

Sure. From the 1611 Bible:

48: And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

From the ESV:

Act 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.

From the ASV

Act 13:48 And as the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of God: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

There is NO translation, NOR Study Bible, which suggests what you do, including Bibles written, according to you, before there was any grammar (which if true would make all of our Bibles useless: for what noun connects to what verb? What word is that adjective describing? Silliness)

Temper, temper. Let's not have a stroke. I know you've studdied the Greek for so long you must be near 80 by now to know so much.

Yes they did. When one spoke a noun, it still connected to it's verb in the same way. They might not have had an "official" grammar defined as we do today, but the words still connected in the same way. Language would be unintelligible unless you knew what adjective was attached to what noun, etc. "Is that a blue chair, or is the person sitting in it blue? Or is the chair sitting on the person? Did He hand that man a drink and he drank it, or was it the reverse?"
There was Grammar (at least in the broad way you are attempting to define it).

Wrong again they didn't have rules of Grammar they hadn't even thought of it yet.

Could you please name the Greek scholar who believes as you do? I keep asking...

I don't know any. I have some Greek friends but they willingly admit they are not experts like you. One doesn't have to be an expert to recognize his leg is being pulled by a Calvinist any way.

No one has ever disputed the word order of that translation to my knowledge.

You haven't been around long have you?
What you're upset about is that someone called your bluff. Scripture supports what I've been saying Grace comes through faith. That was seemingly your only support for the false claim that faith comes through grace. One verse out of thousands does a Calvinist doctrine make? Not proper grammar on the question but I'll bet you understand it.

HILLARIOUS!!! I am reading it as it is written! You are the one who is redefining scripture!

From the Greek, I doubt that. Those who get upset the most rarely if ever truly understand what the discussion is really about. IOW's I'll bet you a dollar to a donut you haven't a clue how it reads in the Greek.

Simple question: who does God have mercy on? (Hint: It's in Romans).

Those who submit to the rightousness of God.
Rom 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

Nope. Grace comes from God. He distributes it through Faith. Grace is the determining factor (the "who"), and Faith is the means (HOW he distributes it).

Funny how 99.9% of scripture disagrees with you.
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
The man who does not believe is condemned, he is not saved. How could a nonbelieving man be saved? He must believe first.
Joh 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
Everywhere in scripture belief always comes before being born again.

LOL: I never claimed to be a Greek Scholar. Truthfully, other than self study, I only have a single year of Greek. But I can read: and even the people who agree with your theology would state you are incorrect.

Sure you did by claiming you know what you're talking about when it is obvious that you don't. I wasn't deceived even a little bit.
MB

 

[Havensdad]

As in the words of Ronald Regan "There you go again"
Are they not all one.

One God. Three persons. Did Jesus give them sheep to Himself? No. The Father gave them to Jesus.

1Jn 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

Very good. Now apply what you have just learned a little.

Ah but you're not the Word are you? I know you'd like me to think you are. Sorry to disappoint you.

Nope, just quoting it.

Do you really think so. I think you're just being kind

Good eye.

Temper, temper. Let's not have a stroke. I know you've studdied the Greek for so long you must be near 80 by now to know so much.

Apparently you are unaware of how one writes on a forum. Let me illuminate it for you.

When I write something in all CAPS or bold or underline something, I am EMPHASIZING it. That does not mean in any way that I am angry.

I NEVER (that is emphasis) get angry at Arminians, I just feel sorry for them.

Wrong again they didn't have rules of Grammar they hadn't even thought of it yet.

Where are you coming up with this?? We have books MUCH older than the 200 years you claim, which talk about Koine Greek Grammar! There are books: Greco-Latin Glossaries, Morphologies, etc. from the Roman period!

So what I am wondering is where you are getting your info. Please cite your source. Please cite a source saying that Koine Greek speakers had no way to connect vowels with their respective nouns, etc.

I don't know any. I have some Greek friends but they willingly admit they are not experts like you. One doesn't have to be an expert to recognize his leg is being pulled by a Calvinist any way.

Then where did you get the information that "There was no Koine Greek grammar" before 200 years ago? Can you at least cite THAT source?

Surely you are not confusing the standardization of the modern Greek language with Koine Greek? This would be grave error.

Again, all I am asking is that you cite your source. What book did you read this in?

You haven't been around long have you?

Long enough to recognize people who are trying to argue from Wikipedia articles, and internet "heresay".

Please cite some reputable works on your claims, that we don't have any idea what the Bible actually says.

What you're upset about is that someone called your bluff. Scripture supports what I've been saying Grace comes through faith. That was seemingly your only support for the false claim that faith comes through grace. One verse out of thousands does a Calvinist doctrine make? Not proper grammar on the question but I'll bet you understand it.

As I said, not upset. The ENTIRE BIBLE speaks of God's sovereign election. Not in ONE PLACE is "human choice" ever said to determine anything. In fact:

Rom 9:16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.

From the Greek, I doubt that. Those who get upset the most rarely if ever truly understand what the discussion is really about. IOW's I'll bet you a dollar to a donut you haven't a clue how it reads in the Greek.

Yes actually I do. It is actually very simple.
The sentence reads "all who were ordained to eternal life, believed", just like every single Bible translation ever written, says. I challenge you to find a single Bible translation, or any person of note, who says otherwise.

You will not.

Those who submit to the rightousness of God.
Rom 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

Where is "choice"? It does not say Those who "choose" to submit...

Human choice is only mentioned twice in the Bible. And both times it is to deny that salvation has anything to do with it.

Funny how 99.9% of scripture disagrees with you.

Funny how NO scripture agrees with you.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
The man who does not believe is condemned, he is not saved. How could a nonbelieving man be saved? He must believe first.
Joh 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
Everywhere in scripture belief always comes before being born again.

What is your point? We are debating choice here. Faith is the means by which God distributes His grace. People who have faith are saved. NOT people who "choose" to have faith.


Faith is apportioned to every man.
Rom 12:3 For by the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think with sober judgment, each according to the amount of faith that God has assigned.

Sure you did by claiming you know what you're talking about when it is obvious that you don't. I wasn't deceived even a little bit.
MB

Really? What studies have you had? What Scholars support your idea regarding Acts 13:48. I have cited sources: can you?

You are indeed deceived.

 

[gb93433]

The ENTIRE BIBLE speaks of God's sovereign election. Not in ONE PLACE is "human choice" ever said to determine anything.

How would you interpret Is 45:7?

 

[Havensdad]

How would you interpret Is 45:7?

Not sure what you mean. Let me post the verse from my preferred translation...


Isa 45:7 I form light and create darkness, I make well-being and create calamity, I am the LORD, who does all these things.


What is your question, exactly? Do I believe God makes calamities, like say, Hurricanes and earthquakes? If that is your question, then I answer yes, He does. He has cursed the earth.

 

[Me4Him]

Ro 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it (his faith) was counted unto him for righteousness. (grace)



Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it (grace) is the gift of God:

Ac 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.


If Eph/AC are interpreted as Grace being the "enabler of faith", that is receiving Grace prior to one's faith, then there is a contradiction in the scriptures.

But to keep the scriptures in harmony, each would have to be interpreted.

Eph 2:8 For through faith are ye saved by grace; and that not of yourselves: it (Grace) is the gift of God:

Ac 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as believed were ordained to eternal life.

Predestination doesn't acknowledge that God has a reason for giving man a choice of belief/unbelief, consequently, they have no explanation for a reason they don't believe exist.

God could/would save the whole world, if they chose to believe, but God has a reason for not saving the unbeliever.

 

[MB]

One God. Three persons. Did Jesus give them sheep to Himself? No. The Father gave them to Jesus.



Very good. Now apply what you have just learned a little.



Nope, just quoting it.



Good eye.



Apparently you are unaware of how one writes on a forum. Let me illuminate it for you.

When I write something in all CAPS or bold or underline something, I am EMPHASIZING it. That does not mean in any way that I am angry.

I NEVER (that is emphasis) get angry at Arminians, I just feel sorry for them.

No you just falsely accuse them

Where are you coming up with this?? We have books MUCH older than the 200 years you claim, which talk about Koine Greek Grammar! There are books: Greco-Latin Glossaries, Morphologies, etc. from the Roman period!

So what I am wondering is where you are getting your info. Please cite your source. Please cite a source saying that Koine Greek speakers had no way to connect vowels with their respective nouns, etc.

I never said they couldn't. I said they had no rules of grammar. Yet another false accusation

Then where did you get the information that "There was no Koine Greek grammar" before 200 years ago? Can you at least cite THAT source?

Surely you are not confusing the standardization of the modern Greek language with Koine Greek? This would be grave error.

Again, all I am asking is that you cite your source. What book did you read this in?

Sorce for for something that didn't exist?.:laugh: Do you have a sorce that says they did have rules of grammar? You haven't proved that they did have grammar but then you want me to prove that something didn't exist. You crack me up.

Long enough to recognize people who are trying to argue from Wikipedia articles, and internet "heresay".

Hmmmmm hadn't thought of that. Must be something you do, since you brought it up. I read from someone's poat that Calvinist often falsely accuse those with whom they debate. Don't you realize the wrong of it?

Please cite some reputable works on your claims, that we don't have any idea what the Bible actually says.

I never made that claim you just accused me of it. It is you who doesn't understand scripture and my proof is that in order to believe what you do you have to deny most of it. The Bible has no harmony in what you claim it says, it contradicts everything you claim.

As I said, not upset.

I'm not convinced

The ENTIRE BIBLE speaks of God's sovereign election. Not in ONE PLACE is "human choice" ever said to determine anything. In fact:

Rom 9:16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.

This is about Salvation. Don't you read what I have wrote? I do not claim that Salvation is up to me. It isn't of human will. Salvation is all of God. Faith is all of God. What you can't live with is the fact that it isn't forced.

Yes actually I do. It is actually very simple.
The sentence reads "all who were ordained to eternal life, believed", just like every single Bible translation ever written, says. I challenge you to find a single Bible translation, or any person of note, who says otherwise.

You will not.

Your beginning to bore me. Here you are someone who has admitted they are not an expert but still insist they know what they are talking about. Consult Greens interlinear Bible. I've already given you my source and you keep trying to convince me to the opposite. You haven't and you will not convince me. Calvinism is a false doctrine. I will not ever believe it because it disagrees with scripture. You think you have one verse in all the Bible that supports your false belief and I just showed you it does not support your belief. If it did it would contradict the rest of the Bible. In this case and subject the majority of scripture is what I rest my case on.

Where is "choice"? It does not say Those who "choose" to submit...

Human choice is only mentioned twice in the Bible. And both times it is to deny that salvation has anything to do with it.

Man does not choose God, God has already chosen to die for all man kind. Where is choice?
Joh 3:19 "Now this is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their works were evil.
Joh 3:20 "For every [one] practicing wicked [things] hates the Light and does not come towards the Light, so that his works shall not be exposed.
The only choice man has is to rebel.
You have shown an inability to deal with this I know, but you'll get over it. There simply is no such thing as irresitable grace.

Funny how NO scripture agrees with you.

What scripture would that be?

What is your point? We are debating choice here. Faith is the means by which God distributes His grace. People who have faith are saved. NOT people who "choose" to have faith.

No we are not, you are debating it
Faith isn't chosen but is a product of being convinced of the truth of the gospel. Which by the way is the work of God.

Faith is apportioned to every man.
Rom 12:3 For by the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think with sober judgment, each according to the amount of faith that God has assigned.

Exactly God gives men faith it isn't chosen from the department store window.

Really? What studies have you had? What Scholars support your idea regarding Acts 13:48. I have cited sources: can you?

You are indeed deceived.

Greens interlinear. Read it You have studdied Greek. Deceived!!! Nope even though you tried.
MB

 

[Havensdad]

Brother,

I am going to step away from the discussion now. We are both getting snarky, and it is accomplishing nothing. I guess we will see who's right when we get there.

:jesus:

 

[gb93433]

Seems to me from what I have read that there is an serious lack of understanding of the difference between how Americans think and how Jews thought in the OT and NT. There is a huge difference. As long as that continues the issue will continue to be a problem with no understanding. I find no discussion about the culture and historical context of the readers.

 

[Havensdad]

Seems to me from what I have read that there is an serious lack of understanding of the difference between how Americans think and how Jews thought in the OT and NT. There is a huge difference. As long as that continues the issue will continue to be a problem with no understanding. I find no discussion about the culture and historical context of the readers.

From "Our Father Abraham" by Marvin Wilson (not exactly a lover of Calvinism)

“It is particularly difficult for Westerners—those whose thought-patterns have been influenced more by the Greeks and Romans than by the Hebrews—to piece together the block logic of Scripture. When we open the
Bible, therefore, since we are not Orientals, we are invited…to ‘undergo a kind of intellectual conversion’ to the Hebraic world of the East.

Notice the division here between western/eastern. He is trying to establish that Calvinism, in regards to Sovereignty, is not Biblical, from a Jewish mindset.

He goes on...

“Consideration of certain forms of block logic may give one the impression that divine sovereignty and human responsibility were incompatible. The Hebrews, however, sense no violation of their freedom as they accomplish God’s purposes. Upon a more careful reading of the biblical text one can often observe that the Bible views one block from the perspective of divine transcendence—God says, ‘I will harden Pharaoh’s heart’—and the other from a human point of view—‘Pharoah hardened his heart’ (Ex. 4:21; 7:3,13; 8:15). The same is often true of Scriptures which deal with themes of predestination/election and free will/human freedom.

Notice here what He says: That a Hebrew way of thought could Hold that God was absolutely sovereign in CAUSING the hardening, AND that it was true that Pharaoh chose to Harden it. This is "compatibilism" for those who do not know: i.e. non Hyper Calvinism.

“In sum, the Hebrew mind could handle this dynamic tension of the language of paradox, confident that ‘all is in the hands of Heaven except the fear of Heaven’…Divine sovereignty and human responsibility were not
incompatible.

To sum up: according to the Hebrew: Did God do it: YES! He is sovereign! Did we do it? YES! We are responsible!

Sorry. you brought up "Hebrew mindset". I had to interject one more thought.:wavey: