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I Believe the Doctrine of Unconditional Election,
- Thread starter thatbrian
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Which books have you read on the subject?
2 bad ones would be Elect in the Son, and Chosen but Free!
atpollard
Well-Known Member
If you are going to embrace 'Calvinism' and monergism and predestination and a 100% Sovereign Grace sotierology ... which I do ... then one can not realistically expect to avoid questions (accusations) of Double Predestination and a 'MEAN' or 'UNFAIR' or 'UNLOVING' God being hurled against those beliefs. To some extent, God cannot duck some of the charges 'sticking' without giving up the right to call himself Sovereign. Even Paul responds with a non-response (from a human logic perspective) of "Who are you to ask God to explain himself?"
So on behalf of Arminians everywhere, I respond to your comment with the obvious ... "What about those who are not His own? What happens to them? What is God's loving will for them?"
He will give them what they want.
Hill will be honoring their "free will"
False Dilemma
You're sounding like the disciples that want to call down fire on another human being. God does desire to show mercy, and shows mercy to all who will call upon Him to be saved.
The Condition God Puts on those who He saves are that they are Found "In Christ". God elected His Son as the Savior of the World.
Somehow, you've gotten the wrong impression. I said that God isn't obligated to show mercy, not that He doesn't, or doesn't desire to, show mercy. In fact, Calvinism, through Romans 9, explains that is one of the reasons that God created man, knowing he would sin, in the first place.
Do you not believe that all men are deserving of Hell?
Good afternoon, my brother!
Sorry, maybe i did get the wrong impression.
Yes, all deserve divine Justice.
Good afternoon, Jon
I'm 10 minutes into happy hour and awaiting the next snow storm. Hope you are well.
Taking baby-steps (which is what I needed to do to grasp these things) if all deserve divine justice, and God chooses to show mercy to 5 people, would that unjust of Him?
I am well, thank you!
God's not fair, He's Just. I believe we serve a God of reason and logic. He sets the parameters, we do not set the parameters on Him. That being said, All stand condemned before Him. He saves who He wills. All who call upon the Lord to be saved will be. I do not believe in a pre-existence, therefore, i do not believe God pre-ordained a certain "5" to be saved. I do not believe the Bible even broaches the Subject in the sense that God pre elected people. I believe Christ is the "Pre-elect" One. Just like Isreal (as a nation) was the "Pre-Elect" one to Execute God's Will. "In Christ" is God's Divine Justice Satisfied. and Those who are Found "In Him", upon Belief in Him, are Married (Spiritual Union) With the Elect One. In Christ is the family of God just as "in Israel" was the people of God. Christ fulfills all things--Israel was the disobedient Servant of God, Christ is the Obedient servant of God. In Adam all die. In Christ all live. Christ is the Supreme Elect one who carries out the Will of God. All who believe on Him shall be Part of the Divine Economy of God; The Kingdom of Heaven.
Thanks for the reply. I wonder if you would also answer the question I posed. Preferable with a yes or no and a brief explanation.
Well, God Showing Mercy is only Possible because He is the "Just and the Justifier" as a result of Christ's Work on the Cross. God showing Mercy to anyone is Unjust in the Sense of His Supreme Justice. He does not let the wicked Go Unpunished. So you ask a question that needs to be unpacked.
Pastor_Bob
Well-Known Member
Sincere Question
Unfortunately, I’m sitting outside of the mall in Hot Springs, AR. waiting on my wife. I am not at my office.
I know I have Geisler’s book, I would have to look at the titles of the rest.
I don't remember that thread, so if I did participate in it, please blame that on my 50-something year old brain.
Please let me know which books you have read because your question earlier today was a very basic one. One that shouldn't be asked by someone with a good knowledge of Calvinism, so I think these books might have let you down.
I do respect your willingness to understand the opposing view. Very admirable, indeed.
Because God uses means, in this case, Gospel Preaching, to draw them to Himself.
Yes. Some choose not to believe. That is the default position for lost people.
How? What condition of spiritual perfection does a person have that requires God to save him? We are fallen creatures. We meet no condition of perfection. It is God, through the New Birth, Who makes us alive in Christ.
If you refuse to listen to what we have to say why do you keep asking questions? Where would you be now if you had refused to listen to the Gospel message?
If one is presenting from a non-Cal viewpoint, then your post is well stated.
The Cal. thinking that well stays within the Scriptures presents that the gospel response is not limited merely to two choices.
Remember the parable of the sower and seed.
The seed (Word of God) was spread indiscriminately (to all).
His word is always effective, in spite of the non-cal humanistic driven consideration of it being ineffective.
What those would consider as being ineffective is more often actually effective in confirming that person as not prepared soil. (The word will never return void - without fruit)
It is also erroneous to assume that God does not expect results from the call that is made to all people to repent and be saved.
As God appoints so there is a gathering of the saved.
One must remember, It is not man that has limited the effectiveness of the dirt, it is God that chooses from all (of the Father's creation) those made available (prepared) to receive the seed that grows to harvest.
God purposes some to be shallow, stoney, the path, the desert, the and all other types that have neither nutrition nor water to sustain the Word.
And what manner of man is it that actually is so puffed up as to question God?
You and I agree, all men, in their natural state, are the enemies of God.
Do all men make a conscience, unbiased decision to:
1) Accept God's offer of reconciliation, resulting in eternal life, or
2) Reject God's offer of reconciliation, resulting in eternal death?
All things being equal, why would any rational man, being aware of the choices and the results of each, would choose death over life.
There must be some irrational, spiritual influences at work here!
Are, do you believe the decision is a result of the free-will of the individual?
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