I Believe the Doctrine of Unconditional Election,

[HankD]

And what manner of man is it that actually is so puffed up as to question God?

Moses:
Exodus 5
22 Moses returned to the LORD and said, "O Lord, why have you brought trouble upon this people? Is this why you sent me?
23 Ever since I went to Pharaoh to speak in your name, he has brought trouble upon this people, and you have not rescued your people at all.

Abraham
Genesis 18:23 And Abraham drew near, and said, Wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked?

Others

 

[Iconoclast]

Pastor_Bob,

]

You can explain your Calvinistic viewpoint to me several more times and I'll still disagree.

Excuse me Pastor Bob....but your posted statement seems to be one of unbelief.Are you saying God cannot bring a change in your understanding?
I imagine Saul might of had the same objection until Acts 9.
When you witness to a Roman Catholic....do you have any expectation that God can change their belief?

So, the God you serve gives these men the opportunity to hear the gospel of the death, burial, and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ, and hear that He is the only way to receive eternal life,
and then He says, "Just kidding...you can't have eternal life; I already decided that for you"?

No thank you.[/QUOTE]

Where do you observe the Apostles saying such a thing?

Not in Acts 18....lets take a look;
9 Then spake the Lord to Paul in the night by a vision, Be not afraid, but speak, and hold not thy peace:

10 For I am with thee, and no man shall set on thee to hurt thee: for I have much people in this city.

11 And he continued there a year and six months, teaching the word of God among them.

God told them.....He had much people in that City.

1] He did not say all people...will have an equal chance

2] He did not say....all will believe...

3] God knew exactly who His sheep were...He knew there were many in the City,

4] God did not tell them who they were....

5]God did not give a number...He instructs them to preach to all as He has ordained to hear the word

6] The results belong to God...sometimes the gospel is preached unto salvation, sometimes it confirms someone in a reprobated state....

14 Now thanks be unto God, which always causeth us to triumph in Christ, and maketh manifest the savour of his knowledge by us in every place.

15 For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish:

16 To the one we are the savour of death unto death; and to the other the savour of life unto life. And who is sufficient for these things?

17 For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ.

Now Bob your quote was;

"Just kidding...you can't have eternal life; I already decided that for you"?

Can you show who these sinful men are who want to be saved ...as God works in them....but then are rejected???

I showed you verses that as the gospel is preached....some continue on to perish eternally....there is No kidding around...it is no joke.

Can you show a verse that shows God decided anything for the unbelievers, but to cast them into hell.

From the 1689;
4._____ Others not elected, although they may be called by the ministry of the Word, and may have some common operations of the Spirit, yet not being effectually drawn by the Father, they neither will nor can truly come to Christ, and therefore cannot be saved: much less can men that receive not the Christian religion be saved; be they never so diligent to frame their lives according to the light of nature and the law of that religion they do profess.
( Matthew 22:14; Matthew 13:20, 21; Hebrews 6:4, 5; John 6:44, 45, 65; 1 John 2:24, 25; Acts 4:12; John 4:22; John 17:3 )

 

[Iconoclast]

You won’t believe this, but I’ve asked for here and read books that present both sides of the debate. I’m on my phone right now or I would find the thread and post it here.

Another book of interest is by John Murray....Redemption, Accomplished and Applied...
https://yzahoquraq.files.wordpress....-accomplished-and-applied-john-murray-pdf.pdf

 

[BobRyan]

It's not my viewpoint that I am expressing here. It's the Reformed viewpoint. I'm saying that you don't understand the Calvinist position, Bob. It's Okay, no one who disagrees with it does.

There you have it folks!

The "made up rule" that we always claimed that they use for their "redefinition of terms" -- in plain sight!!

"By definition" if you "don't agree with my Calvinist view - it is because you don't understand Calvinism" so also in this case "you don't understand Calvinism" -- because "by definition" anyone who finds a flaw in it 'does not understand it and so does not know what they are talking about".

That is pretty funny!!

 

[BobRyan]

You can explain your Calvinistic viewpoint to me several more times and I'll still disagree.

Only because -- a zillion more explanations and stories -- will not substantively change the main point and so long as the doctrine remains the same in all those stories - it will retain the same flaws.

Now If I were a certain kind of Calvinist I might argue that God predestined you to find the flaws in Calvinism and that you have no choice in the matter - you must expose them because God has always known that you would and has predestined you to do it.

 

[HankD]

There you have it folks!

The "made up rule" that we always claimed that they use for their "redefinition of terms" -- in plain sight!!

"By definition" if you "don't agree with my - it is because you don't understand my POV" or in this case "you don't understand Calvinism" -- because "by definition" anyone who finds a flaw in it 'does not understand it and so does not know what they are talking about".

That is pretty funny!!

Well, I don't think anyone does including most calvinists.

Many years ago I acquired the Institutes and I made that observation.

Actually the volume is a good sleep aid.

 

[BobRyan]

Well, I don't think anyone does including most calvinists.

Many years ago I acquired the Institutes and I made that observation.

Actually the volume is a good sleep aid.

I have seen a few " I am Calvinist and I don't agree with Calvin" posts any time someone posts something from the institutes that refutes what today's Calvinists claim to believe.

 

[Yeshua1]

I have seen a few " I am Calvinist and I don't agree with Calvin" posts any time someone posts something from the institutes that refutes what today's Calvinists claim to believe.

Ayr you allowed to deviate at all from what Ellen White wrote/spoke on the Bible and salvation, or must you heed and keep all of her works?

 

[Katarina Von Bora]

Doesn't unconditional election negate the need for
Romans 10:13-15?
For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent?

What is the point if men are already unconditionally elected?

Also, verse 16 seems to teach that some chose not to obey after they heard:
But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

If one's salvation is dependent upon obeying(believing) the gospel, and some clearly chose not to obey (believe), then that does away with unconditional election...

Next...

Pastor Bob,

Romans 10:13 is a great proof text . Yet Jesus says that only the elect will come.

John 6:37-39English Standard Version (ESV)

37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.


John 6:44English Standard Version (ESV)

44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

 

[Katarina Von Bora]

So, the God you serve gives these men the opportunity to hear the gospel of the death, burial, and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ, and hear that He is the only way to receive eternal life, and then He says, "Just kidding...you can't have eternal life; I already decided that for you"?

No thank you.

Pastor Bob,

I don't want to be offensive. You are serving the same God I do. You do seem to be confused about what reformed theology teaches. Salvation is of the Lord completely.

I feel confident that you have read Paul's teaching throughout the New Testament.

Ephesians 1:3-11English Standard Version (ESV)

Spiritual Blessings in Christ

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us[a] for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight 9 making known[b] to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.

11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,

God chose us before we were ever born.

 

[BobRyan]

HankD said: ↑
Well, I don't think anyone does including most calvinists.

Many years ago I acquired the Institutes and I made that observation.

Actually the volume is a good sleep aid.

I have seen a few " I am Calvinist and I don't agree with Calvin" posts any time someone posts something from the institutes that refutes what today's Calvinists claim to believe.

Ayr you allowed to deviate at all from what Ellen White ...

Did you imagine a bunch of "Ellen White" in my post just then??

Oh yeah - that's right - when I merely posted verbatim Matthew 18 and Romans 11 - you responded that these texts posted (with the references clearly stated) - was also "Ellen White".

Just in case it is "something else" - I hope you can accommodate the real-life-fact that I don't have all 100,000 pages of her writings memorized so as to "check with it' before posting. Most people here would probably have assumed that obvious point - but you might need some clarity on that point, so am offering it.

I seldom quote anything from her - except when I find one of these "everything is Ellen White" Baptists on this board - who only want to know or imagine something Ellen White said. I don't mind posting "corrections" in that case (at least I do that a little) -- but that is about it.

 

[BobRyan]

So, the God you serve gives these men the opportunity to hear the gospel of the death, burial, and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ, and hear that He is the only way to receive eternal life, and then He says, "Just kidding...you can't have eternal life; I already decided that for you"?

No thank you.

This is an important point. The way we describe salvation , how it works, who God actually loves and who He does not at all care to save... is also the way we are describing our view of God.

 

[BobRyan]

Pastor Bob,

I don't want to be offensive. You are serving the same God I do. You do seem to be confused about what reformed theology teaches. Salvation is of the Lord completely.

I feel confident that you have read Paul's teaching throughout the New Testament.

Ephesians 1:3-11English Standard Version (ESV)

Spiritual Blessings in Christ

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us[a] for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight 9 making known[b] to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.

11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,

God chose us before we were ever born.

Chosen by foreknowledge.

1 Peter 1
To God’s elect, exiles scattered throughout the provinces of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia, 2 who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father,

Not at all the "arbitrary selection" model promoted in Calvinism

 

[BobRyan]

In order for one to deal with the thinking of limits to election (unconditional election), does not one first need to determine if the thinking of some prevenient or preceding grace is actually found in the Scriptures?

Indeed there is - "the Holy Spirit convicts THE WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment" John 16
"I will DRAW ALL mankind unto ME" John 12:32

Prevenient Grace for ALL - the "Whole World"

Enabling ALL to choose.

 

[BobRyan]

The reason I said what I said is that if you knew that ALL men were deserving of Hell, you would not think that God not saving some would be unfair.

Not true at all.

Arbitrarily saving the "FEW" of Matthew 7 instead of the "MANY" or the "WHOLE WORLD" of 1 John 2:2 is not only arbitrary - but deceptive given that God says He died for the "Whole World".

That's what reveals your real thoughts on this matter. You think that God is obligated to show mercy.

Because His own Word obligated Himself.

He COULD have had a Calvinist text instead "I love only the FEW and not the MANY" -- but sadly for Calvinists - God does not describe His character or methods as Calvinist.

 

[Iconoclast]

Chosen by foreknowledge.

1 Peter 1
To God’s elect, exiles scattered throughout the provinces of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia, 2 who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father,

Not at all the "arbitrary selection" model promoted in Calvinism

You do not understand biblical foreknowledge.

 

[BobRyan]

You do not understand biblical foreknowledge.

Pontifical assertions aside... I prefer the actual Bible.

BTW - we already had this rather "revealing" exchange exposing how Calvinists get stuck on the "you don't understand" dead end.

thatbrian said: ↑
It's not my viewpoint that I am expressing here. It's the Reformed viewpoint. I'm saying that you don't understand the Calvinist position, Bob. It's Okay, no one who disagrees with it does.

There you have it folks!

The "made up rule" that we always claimed that they use for their "redefinition of terms" -- in plain sight!!

"By definition" if you "don't agree with my Calvinist view - it is because you don't understand Calvinism" so also in this case "you don't understand Calvinism" -- because "by definition" anyone who finds a flaw in it 'does not understand it and so does not know what they are talking about".

That is pretty funny!!

 

[Iconoclast]

Pontifical assertions aside... I prefer the actual Bible.

BTW - we already had this rather "revealing" exchange exposing how Calvinists get stuck on the "you don't understand" dead end.

Cultists have a different authority than the bible alone. That is why they cannot grasp when the bible verses are answered for them....they look to the teachings of the cult they are in and downplay scripture and the correct teaching altogether. Everytime you are given scriptural correction you cannot bear it.
Your mis use of 1pet...is not really dealing with the verse at all.

 

[agedman]

Indeed there is - "the Holy Spirit convicts THE WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment" John 16
"I will DRAW ALL mankind unto ME" John 12:32

Prevenient Grace for ALL - the "Whole World"

Enabling ALL to choose.

That is not "prevenient/preceding" grace.

This is a common definition from the web that is typical expression of the meaning:

Prevenient grace is a Christian theological concept rooted in Arminian theology, though it appeared earlier in Catholic theology. It is divine grace that precedes human decision. In other words, God will start showing love to that individual at a certain point in his lifetime.
​

What that definitional thinking doesn't recognize is that it was actually the Wesley's that brought such into the protestant frame, and although they were primarily Calvinistic thinking, they were seeking some way in which they could allow for a freedom of expression based upon human manipulation that God in His word did not authorize.


There is no place in Scriptures that show such a grace to be factually based.

 

[BobRyan]

In order for one to deal with the thinking of limits to election (unconditional election), does not one first need to determine if the thinking of some prevenient or preceding grace is actually found in the Scriptures?

Indeed there is - "the Holy Spirit convicts THE WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment" John 16
"I will DRAW ALL mankind unto ME" John 12:32

Prevenient Grace for ALL - the "Whole World"

Enabling ALL to choose.

That is not "prevenient/preceding" grace.

This is a common definition from the web that is typical expression of the meaning:

Prevenient grace is a Christian theological concept rooted in Arminian theology, though it appeared earlier in Catholic theology. It is divine grace that precedes human decision. In other words, God will start showing love to that individual at a certain point in his lifetime.
​

From the definition you just quoted - it appears to be exactly John 16, and John 12:32.

How could it not be??

​

What that definitional thinking doesn't recognize is that it was actually the Wesley's that brought such into the protestant frame, and although they were primarily Calvinistic thinking, they were seeking some way in which they could allow for a freedom of expression based upon human manipulation

The prevenient Grace concept is as we see in John 12:32 and John 16 - the supernatural work of God on all mankind - the supernatural drawing of all mankind... the supernatural convicting of all the world - that enables choice for all mankind even though mankind has a sinful nature.

Those scriptures - are in scripture.