I challenge any evangelical to prove to me that Christians can be responsible for folks burning in h

[Particular]

Have I really attempted to refute Calvinism? You read verses and come up with different meanings than I do. John 3:16 refutes Calvinism, you alter the plain meaning of the verse to fit your theology. As I said, the debate has raged for hundreds of years. If the scripture existed to prove either position without a doubt, there would be no debate.
What I continually argue is that the New Calvinists seemingly value Calvin over the commands of Christ. You are on a mission to spread Calvinism. Your evangelism takes a huge back seat to your love of Calvinism. You see the world and you see every topic through the lens of Calvin. The thread about Adrian Rogers is prime evidence of that

Reynolds read all of John 3 instead of isolating a sentence and declaring a doctrine from it.

 

[Particular]

John 3:16 F"God so loved the World...."
Not part of the world. Not an elect few. Not some from all parts of the world. "The World."

What I believe:
The Five Arminian Articles (1610)
Date: 1610
Author: Jan Uytenbogaert et. al.
John Calvin, 10 July 1509 – 27 May 1564.
The Five articles of Remonstrance refers to the document drawn up in 1610 by the followers of Jacobus
Arminius (1560-1609). A "remonstrance" is literally "an expression of opposition or protest," which in
this case was a protest against the Calvinist doctrine of predestination contained in the Belgic Confession.
Consequently, those followers of Arminius who drafted this protest were given the name "Remonstrants."
This document was condemned as heresy by the reformed churches at the Synod of Dort, 1618-1619.
http://www.theopedia.com/five-articles-of-remonstrance
The Belgic Confession, written in 1561, owes its origin to the need for a clear and comprehensive statement of
Reformed faith during the time of the Spanish inquisition in the Lowlands. Guido de Brès, its primary author, was
pleading for understanding and toleration from King Philip II of Spain who was determined to root out all
Protestant factions in his jurisdiction. Hence, this confession takes pains to point out the continuity of Reformed
belief with that of the ancient Christian creeds, as well as to differentiate it from Catholic belief (on the one hand),
and from Anabaptist teachings (on the other).
Belgic Confession
http://www.esvbible.org/resources/c...article-the-five-arminian-articles-1610/#1121
After the death of Jacobus Arminius in 1610, a number of his followers published their objections to The
Belgic Confession and the teaching of John Calvin and his followers regarding the doctrine of
predestination. In The Five Arminian Articles, also known as the Five Articles of Remonstrance, they
affirmed a conditional election upon the basis of foreseen faith, along with a universal atonement, the
possibility of resisting grace, and the possibility of lapsing from grace. Their teaching was condemned at
the Synod of Dort in 1618-1619.
Article 1
That God, by an eternal, unchangeable purpose in Jesus Christ his Son, before the foundation of the world,
hath determined, out of the fallen, sinful race of men, to save in Christ, for Christ’s sake, and through
Christ, those who, through the grace of the Holy Ghost, shall believe on this his Son Jesus, and shall
persevering this faith and obedience of faith, through this grace, even to the end; and, on the other hand,
to leave the incorrigible and unbelieving in sin and under wrath, and to condemn them as alienate from
Christ, according to the word of the gospel in John 3:36: “He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting
life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but wrath of God abideth on him,” and according
to other passages of Scripture also.
Article 2
That, agreeably thereto, Jesus Christ, the Saviour of the world, died for all men and for every man, so that
he has obtained for them all, by his death on the cross, redemption and the forgiveness of sins; yet that no
one actually enjoys this forgiveness of sins except the believer according to the word of the Gospel of
John 3:16: “God so love the world that he gave his only-begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him
should not perish, but have everlasting life.” And in the First Epistle of John 2:2: “And he is the
propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.”
Article 3
That man has not saving grace himself, nor of the energy of his free will, inasmuch as he, in the state of
apostasy and sin, can of and by himself, neither thing, will, nor do any thing that is truly good (such as
saving Faith eminently is); but that it is needful that he be born again of God in Christ through his Holy
Spirit, and renewed in understanding, inclination, or will, and all his powers, in order that he may rightly
understand, think, will, and effect what is truly good, according to the Word of Christ, John 15:5: “Without
me ye can do nothing.”
Article 4
That this grace of God is the beginning, continuance, and accomplishment of all good, even to this extent,
that the regenerate man himself, without prevenient or assisting, awaking, following and co-operative
grace, can neither think, will, nor do good, nor withstand any temptations to evil; so that all good deeds
or movements, that can be conceived, must be ascribed to the grace of God in Christ. But as respects the
mode of the operation of this grace it is not irresistible, inasmuch as it is written concerning many, that
they have resisted the Holy Ghost (Acts 7:51), and elsewhere in many places.
Article 5
That those who are incorporated into Christ by a true faith, and have thereby become partakers of his life-
giving Spirit, have thereby full power to strive against Satan, sin, the world, and their own flesh, and to
win the victory; it being well understood that it is ever through the assisting grace of the Holy Ghost; and
that Jesus Christ assists them through his Spirit in all temptations, extends to them his hand, and if only
they are ready for the conflict, and desire his help, and are not inactive, keeps them from falling, so that
they, by no craft or power of Satan, can be misled nor plucked out of Christ’s hands, according to the
Word of Christ, John 10:28: “Neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.” But whether they are
capable, through negligence, of forsaking again the first beginnings of their life in Christ (Heb 3:6, 14; 2
Pet 1:10; Jude 3; 1 Tim 1:19; Heb 11:13), of again returning to this present evil world, of turning away
from the holy doctrine which was delivered to them, of losing a good conscience, of becoming void of
grace, that must be more particularly determined out of the Holy Scripture, before we ourselves can teach
it with full persuasion of our minds.
These Articles, thus set forth and taught, the Remonstrants deem agreeable to the Word of God, tending
to edification, and, as regards this argument, sufficient for salvation, so that it is not necessary of edifying
to rise higher or to descend deeper.




Philip Schaff and David S. Schaff, eds. The Creeds of Christendom (1931; repr., Grand Rapids: Baker,
1996), 3:545–49. This translation is in the public domain. This document constitute part of the background
to which the Synod of Dort responded.

Would you/Could you share the scripture and explain how the scriptures inform your faith?
I couldn't care less about old council's of Calvinists or Arminians, synergists or monergists if scripture is not at the heart of why we believe what we believe.
I derived my doctrine from years of reading and study of God's word. If I checked on council's and systems of theology I know I have run the spectrum of all the groups I listed above. But, it is God's word that keeps refining me and pointing me toward the attributes of God and His interaction with men.
I understand that every individual believer is located somewhere on that spectrum. Where I am is not where others may be. My only concern is that we not stay comfortable in our area, but we sharpen each other. That sharpening happens when we agree to drop our pretenses and deeply study God's word at both a macro and micro level. Observe, question, interpret, evaluate, question, interpret, evaluate, apply.

 

[timtofly]

Sealed by Holy Spirit right when we are saved

The verse says unto the day. It does not say after the day and forward.


If all humans are sealed from conception to death, how can it be a believers responsibility to keep any out of hell?

If we warn or refuse when the Holy Spirit prompts us, that is the only disobedience we are charged with.

Salvation is still the choice of the individual.

 

[Particular]

Can any one show in Scripture a problem with this statement?

The Holy Spirit seals every human from conception to death.

Ephesians 4:30 makes that claim.
"And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption."

@timtofly, you state "the Holy Spirit seals every human," but does the scripture you shared say that?

Who, in the passage, is "ye?"

Paul is writing to those who are Christians in Ephesus. He is not writing to the pagans who are still "dead in their trespasses and sins."
Therefore, your universal claim, of "every human" being sealed by the Holy Spirit, is not correct. Instead, I argue that every person whom God has chosen to adopt is sealed by the Holy Spirit and is redeemed.

What you have stated, perhaps inadvertently, is a universalist claim that the entire human race is and or will be saved and redeemed at some time. That claim is not taught by the verse you selected.

 

[timtofly]

@timtofly, you state "the Holy Spirit seals every human," but does the scripture you shared say that?

Who, in the passage, is "ye?"

Paul is writing to those who are Christians in Ephesus. He is not writing to the pagans who are still "dead in their trespasses and sins."
Therefore, your universal claim, of "every human" being sealed by the Holy Spirit, is not correct. Instead, I argue that every person whom God has chosen to adopt is sealed by the Holy Spirit and is redeemed.

What you have stated, perhaps inadvertently, is a universalist claim that the entire human race is and or will be saved and redeemed at some time. That claim is not taught by the verse you selected.

Not exactly, any who die in their sins, are no longer sealed, unless God says otherwise. The seal is broken by death, because one never acknowledged the day of Redemption.

There was only one day of Redemption. It was on the Cross when Jesus said it was finished and the Atonement was complete.

The Lamb then entered into the alter, from the foundation of the world, the Lamb's book of life. Then the Post incarnate Christ spoke the world into existence. All humanity to ever be was named before the beginning. The Lamb's book of life has been sealed, no additions no subtractions until now. The 7 seals in Revelation 6 are unsealing the Lamb's book of life. Only after the 7th Seal can the names be removed. Covid19 was the first seal. The second seal has been opened and the earth is still at peace. Read chapter 6 for what is going to happen next.

 

[Reynolds]

True. This is where iron sharpens iron. We sit down together and we work through God's word together.
We wrestle with the passages and seek the context rather than prooftexting to fit our agenda.
On this I hope we both agree.

I agree. I am also not very hopeful that we will solve a centuries old debate.

 

[Reynolds]

Reynolds read all of John 3 instead of isolating a sentence and declaring a doctrine from it.

I think I have read it a time or three.

 

[Reynolds]

Would you/Could you share the scripture and explain how the scriptures inform your faith?
I couldn't care less about old council's of Calvinists or Arminians, synergists or monergists if scripture is not at the heart of why we believe what we believe.
I derived my doctrine from years of reading and study of God's word. If I checked on council's and systems of theology I know I have run the spectrum of all the groups I listed above. But, it is God's word that keeps refining me and pointing me toward the attributes of God and His interaction with men.
I understand that every individual believer is located somewhere on that spectrum. Where I am is not where others may be. My only concern is that we not stay comfortable in our area, but we sharpen each other. That sharpening happens when we agree to drop our pretenses and deeply study God's word at both a macro and micro level. Observe, question, interpret, evaluate, question, interpret, evaluate, apply.

Scripture is cited.
I have an old 600 page theology book that discusses it and in the end, no more is said than what is said in what I posted.

I know the points you will disagree with. I know what the scriptures you use will be. We will still disagree. I concede Arminianism is imperfect. I see Calvinism as equally imperfect. I choose Arminianism.

 

[Iconoclast]

Can any one show in Scripture a problem with this statement?

The Holy Spirit seals every human from conception to death.

Ephesians 4:30 makes that claim.
"And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption."

All men do not have the Spirit,Roman's 8:9

 

[Iconoclast]

Fair enough

Okay...a few more hours to go. I think it can be profitable for both of us and sincere persons looking on.

 

[Yeshua1]

@timtofly, you state "the Holy Spirit seals every human," but does the scripture you shared say that?

Who, in the passage, is "ye?"

Paul is writing to those who are Christians in Ephesus. He is not writing to the pagans who are still "dead in their trespasses and sins."
Therefore, your universal claim, of "every human" being sealed by the Holy Spirit, is not correct. Instead, I argue that every person whom God has chosen to adopt is sealed by the Holy Spirit and is redeemed.

What you have stated, perhaps inadvertently, is a universalist claim that the entire human race is and or will be saved and redeemed at some time. That claim is not taught by the verse you selected.

karl Barth has returned!

 

[Yeshua1]

Not exactly, any who die in their sins, are no longer sealed, unless God says otherwise. The seal is broken by death, because one never acknowledged the day of Redemption.

There was only one day of Redemption. It was on the Cross when Jesus said it was finished and the Atonement was complete.

The Lamb then entered into the alter, from the foundation of the world, the Lamb's book of life. Then the Post incarnate Christ spoke the world into existence. All humanity to ever be was named before the beginning. The Lamb's book of life has been sealed, no additions no subtractions until now. The 7 seals in Revelation 6 are unsealing the Lamb's book of life. Only after the 7th Seal can the names be removed. Covid19 was the first seal. The second seal has been opened and the earth is still at peace. Read chapter 6 for what is going to happen next.

The atonement work of Christ only applies towards those who have received Him as their Lord thru faith!

 

[timtofly]

All men do not have the Spirit,Roman's 8:9

This is being sealed by the Spirit. Letting the Holy Spirit work in you, is another attribute.

 

[timtofly]

karl Barth has returned!

I am not a theologian.

 

[timtofly]

The atonement work of Christ only applies towards those who have received Him as their Lord thru faith!

Yes, I agree. The Holy Spirit still seals them from conception to death. Receiving the Atonement changes one headed for death, to head in the opposite direction, unto eternal life.

 

[xlsdraw]

Would you/Could you share the scripture and explain how the scriptures inform your faith?
I couldn't care less about old council's of Calvinists or Arminians, synergists or monergists if scripture is not at the heart of why we believe what we believe.
I derived my doctrine from years of reading and study of God's word. If I checked on council's and systems of theology I know I have run the spectrum of all the groups I listed above. But, it is God's word that keeps refining me and pointing me toward the attributes of God and His interaction with men.
I understand that every individual believer is located somewhere on that spectrum. Where I am is not where others may be. My only concern is that we not stay comfortable in our area, but we sharpen each other. That sharpening happens when we agree to drop our pretenses and deeply study God's word at both a macro and micro level. Observe, question, interpret, evaluate, question, interpret, evaluate, apply.

Or rather better yet, learn from the Holy Spirit. No one is as competent to teach as the Holy Spirit. Him I trust.

 

[AustinC]

I agree. I am also not very hopeful that we will solve a centuries old debate.

True, however, if I were with you in church, I believe we could sit down together and exegete scripture together, examine our assumptions and encourage one another. Here in this format such dedication to studying God's word does not happen.

 

[AustinC]

Or rather better yet, learn from the Holy Spirit. No one is as competent to teach as the Holy Spirit. Him I trust.

This is a nice platitude, but it is extremely vague. No doubt every person here believes they are being taught by the Holy Spirit, yet they/we have different beliefs. Obviously some are wrong. How do you propose one discerns who is taught by the Holy Spirit and who is not?

 

[timtofly]

This is a nice platitude, but it is extremely vague. No doubt every person here believes they are being taught by the Holy Spirit, yet they/we have different beliefs. Obviously some are wrong. How do you propose one discerns who is taught by the Holy Spirit and who is not?

Same as any relationship, the closer to get to Agreement with God, what is false falls away and only truth will remain.

 

[Reynolds]

True, however, if I were with you in church, I believe we could sit down together and exegete scripture together, examine our assumptions and encourage one another. Here in this format such dedication to studying God's word does not happen.

It can happen. It has to happen with an understanding. That understanding is that I know Calvinistic doctrine, I am not saying I know everything, but I know Calvinism in MOST its forms. When we disagree, we disagree over interpretation. We dont disagree because you or I am ignorant. The ignorant accusation is a discussion ender for me. I have quoted, in modern English, Calvinistic fathers and for their words been told I was Ignorant and didnt understand Calvinism.
As I have said many times, true High Calvinism is a very logical and very defendable doctrine. It also is a doctrine most Calvinists on here are not willing to embrace. Usually, their departures from the original doctrine is where I find issues that can not logically be reconciled. Fully embrace double predestination (as its now called) and we can begin having a logical dialogue.