Particular
Well-Known Member
May I ask why you run to church writings to make your argument here? You claim "Calvinistic father's" which is terribly vague. Why go to some nebulous church father? Why not go right to scripture alone?
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I challenge any evangelical to prove to me that Christians can be responsible for folks burning in h
- Thread starter kyredneck
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May I ask why you run to church writings to make your argument here? You claim "Calvinistic father's" which is terribly vague. Why go to some nebulous church father? Why not go right to scripture alone?
To demonstrate how Calvinists widely disagree with each other. To demonstrate that many of the modern Calvinists consider their fathers in the doctrine ignorant of the doctrine. To demonstrate the great divide within Calvinism.
Two who I quoted in modern English that seem to be "ignorant" of Calvinism are both named John. One Gill and the other Calvin.
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"Reynolds,
[John 3:16 F"God so loved the World...."
1]Not part of the world.
2]Not an elect few.
3]Not some from all parts of the world.
4]The world.]
Hello Reynolds.
Are these 4 parts of jn3 your initial concern?
It seems as if you are focused on every person ever born.
Is that your concern?
By the way, I personally like that you offered some historical links into the discussion.
I understand you offer them as support to indicate what direction you are coming from.
Of course we all want the truth of scripture. Those who wrote the links were on the same quest.
I also do not expect you to defend any link 100% as you are not the author. Just clarify which part you vary from the link if necessary.
[John 3:16 F"God so loved the World...."
1]Not part of the world.
2]Not an elect few.
3]Not some from all parts of the world.
4]The world.]
Hello Reynolds.
Are these 4 parts of jn3 your initial concern?
It seems as if you are focused on every person ever born.
Is that your concern?
By the way, I personally like that you offered some historical links into the discussion.
I understand you offer them as support to indicate what direction you are coming from.
Of course we all want the truth of scripture. Those who wrote the links were on the same quest.
I also do not expect you to defend any link 100% as you are not the author. Just clarify which part you vary from the link if necessary.
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Thanks. That seems accurate about John 3:16.
Okay...just checking. Did not want to assume anything.
I would like to explore these 4 points in this way.
We have in scripture a few different descriptions of the world.
1] the whole created world.
2]all the people who have ever lived in the world
3] in the time of Noah, the "world of the ungodly " that were destroyed.
4] the world system that is opposed to the Kingdom of God
,ie, love not the world,neither the things of the world
5] the world of the Gentiles outside of Israel. As per Amos 3...you only have I known of all the nations of the earth.
Now... you are saying that only number 2 is being spoken of? Or are there any other possible uses?
There are other possible uses, but I hold to #2. Even though it will appear to create conflict with verses such as John 1:29, I dont believe them as true conflict. Many historical Calvinists will agree with me, many will disagree.
Okay...if it is only #2 I think that raises other concerns, but Let's not solve the puzzle yet.
I would like to probe a bit first.I would like to raise this issue about your second phrase, and also the third phrase used.
You said...." not an elect FEW".
Scarlett used similar terminology....
This idea of "an elect few"
I would like to give evidence why this should be dismissed from any further part of the discussion.
In Gen 13:16 Abraham is told his descendants would be as the dust of the earth? The dust of the earth cannot be numbered.
In Genesis 15:5 he is told more than the stars of the heaven.
This idea of an elect few is not biblical.
What are your thoughts on that? Can we agree it is an innumerable number of elect people? Not an elect few?.
Your third phrase was....not some from all parts of the world ?
In John 11 John describes just such a group of people.
In verses 49-52 he describes children of God who are scattered worldwide? Do you see it is a distinct group of believers scattered worldwide. In other words some from all parts.
What do you think of this language?
Do you clearly see how it might be taken different than you suggest?
In John 11 John describes just such a group of people.
In verses 49-52 he describes children of God who are scattered worldwide? Do you see it is a distinct group of believers scattered worldwide. In other words some from all parts.
What do you think of this language?
Do you clearly see how it might be taken different than you suggest?
Innumerable can be small or large. I scoop up a 55 gallon drum of sand at the beach. The sand particles in that drum is innumerable. The sand in that drum is minuscule compared to all sand on the Earth
So...we can agree it is an elect multitude that no man can number.
Particular
Well-Known Member
Reynolds, the exact same thing is said of the spectrum of Arminians. In fact you bristle at being lumped in with that crew.
So, let us open up God's word and observe what it says.
So long as we also agree it is not the majority of people to have lived on Earth since creation
timtofly
Well-Known Member
Can we vote for ourselves, or do other humans elect us? The elect are not the only ones in the Lamb's book of life. God will remove names at the last judgment. The elect will not be removed, will they? God tells us that everyone ever to be born on earth is named in that book. 2 Peter 3:9
"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."
All names are there, because all have been given a chance. We are also told that names will be removed. Show me one verse in the Bible that says God adds names at any time.
Your assertions (bolded) are not supported in the Bible.
timtofly
Well-Known Member
So the elect can be removed?
The assumption that only the elect are in the Lamb's book of life cannot be supported in the Bible either. Unless you can prove that the elect can be removed.
I can agree to that with few thoughts.
We might still be the early church for such a multitude of people who are going to be saved implies time passing.
Also mt28 is a command not an option.
Agreed
First, where did I ever assert that the elect can be removed? I am not sure how you came to that conclusion.
Second,
Ephesians 1:3-6 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved.
Matthew 25:31-46 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left. Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’ Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers,you did it to me.’ “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ Then they also will answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?’ Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
Revelation 13:7-8 Also it was allowed to make war on the saints and to conquer them. And authority was given it over every tribe and people and language and nation, and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain.
Particular
Well-Known Member
Where does God say this?
atpollard
Well-Known Member
That one caught my attention too.
He is reading it in the word “all” in 2 Peter 3:9
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