Originally posted by SpiritualMadMan:
Could there be more than one use for things God does?
Look at this potential rendering of Hebrews 11...
Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
For the unbeliever who has no Faith they don't expect anything from God... So, it's a Sign to them...
For the Believers the Sign Gifts are an expected "substance" of their Faith...
That is they do not happen to prove anything...
They happen because the believers are believers walking in the fulness of the Spirit...
So what does this prove? The signs (miracles) happened to the believers of the first century. They were always
done by believers, but not
for believers. What? Was Jesus, Paul, and Peter unbelievers in your opinion? They were the one doing the miracles.
Mark 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
Mark 16:18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
First, these signs shall follow believers...
For what purpose? To show the unbelieving Jews that the gospel was from God. They were a sign to the unbelieving Jew. They were not for the edification of the church (primarily).
Not believers chasing after signs...
No, this is what the Charismatics do today. They don't have the Biblical gift of languages; they only pretend, and speak some gibberish instead--a string of nonsense syllables and think that they are speaking in tongues. They are chasing after Satan's conterfeit of tongues.
Second, it's believers, not the five fold Ministry, that these signs are to be following...
Can you demontstrate this "theory" from Scripture? As certain signs followed believers it was to convince unbelieving Jews of the authenticity of the gospel. That was the purpose of a
sign gift. It was a
sign to the nation of Israel. See 1Cor.14:21. Nowhere does it say that it is a sign to believers. Study what it means to be a sign gift.
That is strike two, in my view, for some of the Fruits, Nuts, and Flakes I see in todays churches...
Yeah, pretty much all of the Charismatic churches.
While these Signs in Mark may not be an exact match for the Sign Gifts of the Holy Spirit the indication is that they were to be a normal part of the Believers Life...
The indication was that they were for the first century Christians and then only for a select few. However, even if I give you the benefit of the doubt, they are still
sign gifts. These
signs shall follow you. Signs were for the unbelieving Jews. See 1Cor.14:21. They were never meant for the edification of the believers. Why would a believer need a sign? Don't you as a believer believe the gospel? Why then do you need a sign?
All believers, not just a priviledged and blessed few at the top of the totem pole...
Are you now just coming to the realization that not all believers have to speak in tongues? They didn't in the First Century, and no one has that ability today. If not every one had the gift in the first century why is it the most sought after gift today by every Charismatic?
In my opinion the Holy Spirit will respond with power to any Believer (whether tongue talker or not) who approaches a situation with and in Faith...
Nowhere in the Bible are we commanded to seek for the gift of tongues. In fact we are discouraged from seeking after tongues and encouraged to seek after prophecy (preaching) instead. Just a cursory reading of the fourteenth chapter of First Corinthians will demonstrate that to be very evident. But the Charismatics are determined to twist every verse in that chapter to make it fit into their own preconceived theology.
The Baptists, in general, have been taught to expect nothing so they don't normally pray such things in Faith...
Baptists don't pray for things that are against the will of God. I don't pray for God to speak to me in a burning bush such as He spoke to Moses. I know it is not His will. I know it is not His will to bestow on me the gift of healing such as he did in Acts 5:16 on Peter. BTW, you can't find anyone today who has that gift. From the time that I have challenged you to demonstrate someone who has that gift and can demonstrate that he has that gift, you have been unable to do so. The gift has ceased (along with all the others). That is proof enough.
But, the Pentecostals & Charismatics are not much better because they generally believe that only a priviledged few can pray such prayers...
Pray what prayers: "God give me the fake demonic gift of gibberish because I can't have the genuine gift of tongues that was given to the Apostles."
So, they don't bother praying with Faith either!
I don't believe you know what faith is.
I am sure those far more versed than I can do better...
That is why we don't pray for things already past.
Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
Check out the first verse of the chapter. Faith is that which you don't see. We walk by faith and not by sight. By you see others praying in tongues. You contradict yourself.
It is not enough to merely believe that He "is", though...
James 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and {They're smart enough to} tremble. Annotation mine.
SMM
We all believe in God. So what is the inference? That the Baptists on this board are not saved? Accusations like that can get you banned. You can do better than that!
DHK
