I Corinthians 1:7 shows that gifts continue

[DHK]

Originally posted by SpiritualMadMan:
But, Tam, didn't you hear the argument that the Greek for 'Prefect' doesn't mean perfect but rather complete?

(I didn't buy it either.)

SMM

Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

What does this verse mean? Is the Lord actually commanding us to be absolutely sinless for the rest of our lives--to be perfectly holy just as God himself is holy. We know that is an impossible task. So what is Christ commanding?
I challenge you to do your own Bible study on this verse and see what you find.

But I will tell you this much. The Greek word for "perfect" is telios, the same word that is used in 1Cor.13:10, What the Lord is commanding of all believers is that they be complete in Christ, mature. Read what the fruit of the Spirit is in Gal.5. If we exhibit that in our lives daily we demonstrate our "completeness" as those are characteristics of Christ as well.
DHK

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

I would agree, DHK. Perfect is denoting a maturity; a completeness in Christ Jesus.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by music4Him:
Again Amen Link~ and your Greek professor was right.

G932
βασιλεία
basileia
bas-il-i'-ah
From G935; properly royalty, that is, (abstractly) rule, or (concretely) a realm (literally or figuratively): - kingdom, + reign.

Maybe the strongs I got don't go into as much detail as DHK's Greek dictionary?

No it doesn't. It doesn't give you the gender of the noun. For that you need another resource. But notice what it does say: "a realm;" "kingdom."
The definition is right. Just because it is so brief (being at the back of Strong's Concordance) doesn't make the brief definition completely wrong. It just doesn't give all the information that a more thorough "Lexicon" would give. The fact remains that the word is a feminine noun. If you read the Greek New Testaent you will find Basiliea is preceeded by the feminine gender of the definite article "the" every time. The reason being it is a feminine noun.
If you know any French (like most of us in Canada do) you would always refer to "house" as "la maison." "La" is the feminine form of "the" and the masculine is "le." But Greek is more precise. It has three "genders"--masculine, feminine, and neuter. And "telion" is neuter which rules out either "kingdom" or "Christ."
When "that which is perfect" (something neuter) is come. Context demands a neuter object. The Bible fits this context perfectly for many reasons.
DHK

 

[Hope of Glory]

Originally posted by SpiritualMadMan:
But, Tam, didn't you hear the argument that the Greek for 'Prefect' doesn't mean perfect but rather complete?

(I didn't buy it either.)

SMM

I cannot fully comment on the quality of this statement without getting my post edited.

Suffice it to say that there is a lengthy discussion elsewhere on the board that is talking about those who revel in not caring what a passage/word really means.

 

[SpiritualMadMan]

HOG,

Did you go back a page and see what I was referring, too?

music4Him posted May 25, 2006 09:35 PM

Again Amen Link~ and your Greek professor was right.

G932
βασιλεία
basileia
bas-il-i'-ah
From G935; properly royalty, that is, (abstractly) rule, or (concretely) a realm (literally or figuratively): - kingdom, + reign.

Maybe the strongs I got don't go into as much detail as DHK's Greek dictionary?

tamborine lady posted May 26, 2006 08:59 AM

Isn't it funny how some people have to go to the greek, or some obscure manuscript from thousands of years ago to prove their point, and yet they say the bible is the "perfect, spoken of in 1 Cor13-10?

So, by the way they use it, they prove with their actions that the bible is not what is spoken of in that passage.

Selah,

Tam

Tam and I *do* care about what the Greek really means...

We had argued that nothing perfect had been produced since Jesus' Ascension...

To which the reply was that the Greek really doesn't mean "Perfect" as we understand perfection. But, rather "Complete"...

And, I didn't buy that reason for cessasionism either...

You really should read a little further back before jumping in a thread...

Not that I haven't made the same mistake.

SMM

 

[DHK]

tamborine lady posted May 26, 2006 08:59 AM

Isn't it funny how some people have to go to the greek, or some obscure manuscript from thousands of years ago to prove their point, and yet they say the bible is the "perfect, spoken of in 1 Cor13-10?

This is an absurd statement.
If you are referring to an "obscure manuscript from thousands of years ago," I admit I used the TR which I believe is the Greek MSS from which the original MSS were preserved in.
That being said, the word "telios" can be found in any modern lexicon written in the last ten years. So exactly what are you saying. You are either attacking the Bible from where I got the word. Or you are attacking the dictionary from where I got the meaning. Either way it is foolishness.
DHK

 

[Link]

J Jump

I appreciate the fact that you are so open to what the word of God has to say on this issue. It seems like a lot of people won't even concede a minor point when proven wrong.

About the idea of the kingdom being 'the perfect' in I Corinthians 13, that is something to consider. Perhaps it could be when the kingdom comes in its fullness, when all enemies are put under Christ's feet, or when Christ delivers the kingdom back to God. Paul does talk about this time in chapter 11 in his discussion of the resurrection. I see that as a possibility. It would be after the resurrection, which means Paul would already be as an adult and his earthly life as a child.

On the other hand, I still see a strong case for this referring to what happens at the resurrection, since Paul refers to himself as an individual-- his maturity, his knowledge, his seeing face to face. The believer will enter a kind of perfection or completion at that time.

Plus, Thessalonians ties the Lord's return together with the resurrection. And I Corinthians 7:1 says that you come behind in no gift waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

So I still lean toward the resurrection, though I am open to the possibility that it may refer to something later, like Christ giving the kingdom back to God after all enemies are put under his feet.

 

[tamborine lady]

SMM said:The problem is this there seems to be a lof of Christians who decide to Praise and Worship based on whether the weather is fair or adverse.

Briguy, DHK, Link and I agree on probably 80% of our doctrines. Possibly more...

We do occaisionally get into a good 'head-to-head' in areas where we disagree. Like this one.

I allow that Cessasionists have the right to Administrate and Limit whatever Giftings they desire in their own local congregations...

And, I would never knowingly violate their Local Standards unless it was a crucial Salvation Issue...

Unfortunately, some Cessasionists do not allow for those of us who believe the Gifts continue to Administrate them a bit more liberally within our own local assemblies...

This can make some of our discussion a bit 'hot'.

But, usually we do remember that we are Fellow Believers in the Finished Work of Christ...

And, though we disagree... We generally still Love One another in the Lord...

Though, admittedly, sometimes in making our points it may not seem so...

SMM

That is my thought as well. The only thing I object to is someone saying we have to believe their way or we are led by the devil and we are going to hell,

Amen SMM!!

Peace,

Tam

 

[SpiritualMadMan]

I did a date of publication comparison of all the Commentaries I have and noted something somewhat interesting...

Prior to the Pentecostal outpouring they all pretty much shared that that which is perfect is the heavenly kingdom...

That is, prior to the "Threat" of Pentecost the overwhelming majority of Commentators assumed that, "That which is perfect" was in the end of times frame...

_NOT_ in the church age...

I find this curious and was wondering if anyone has a commentary published after 1906 (or so) that also has the same sense to it...

And, I would also be interested in commentaries _before_ the 1900's that held the same view of cessasessionist that, "that which is perfect" will come before the Rapture or Tribulation...

Thanks!

SMM

 

[DHK]

Look in those same older commentaries and see what their position is on the rapture, the Millennial Kingdom, the Tribulation, The Second Coming, Dispensationalism. I can't trust any of them for the eschatological views. They are vastly different than ours. They tended to take the prevalent view at that time and just copy one another. I would assume that the same would be the case in 1Cor.13:10.
DHK

 

[SpiritualMadMan]

I guess what I am wondering is the "why" the views changed.

And, when they changed.

But, you're right, that as we mature in Christ and additional language resources become available our views may neccesarily have to change...

But, if the view changed because of a 'preference' against the Gifts and not neccesarily because the Greek really meant this or that...

Or, worse could be honestly read to mean either view...

The level of 'stress' one hears against the Gifts may not be based solely on the Greek...

But, may include a mixture of indoctrination and possibly fear of the unknown...

On the other hand the same might be said of Pentecostals in regards to indoctrination...

As my own studies have uncovered some fairly common and accepted practices that I personally can't square with Scripture.

But, I remain convinced that every blessing and gift remains today and will remain until Jesus Returns. Even though there has in fact been strange fire and abuse at times...

 

[Link]

Look in those same older commentaries and see what their position is on the rapture, the Millennial Kingdom, the Tribulation, The Second Coming, Dispensationalism. I can't trust any of them for the eschatological views. They are vastly different than ours. They tended to take the prevalent view at that time and just copy one another. I would assume that the same would be the case in 1Cor.13:10.
DHK

It would be interesting to see what Schofield or some of the 'Plymouth Brethren' of the 1800's wrote about this. Of course, some of the Plymouth brethren were reactionary against a charismatic movement, which was also millinealist, going on in England around the time their own movement started to take off.

 

[jtown5]

One Gift that is eternal certain manifestations will cease we we are joined to Christ

:Fish: There is but one gift, He is the person of the Holy Spirit. Paul admonishes us to cleave to His(the Holy Spirit)best use of us. The way he most commonly uses us. To say that manefestations of THE GIFT will cease in earth is proper, however this Gift come down out of heaven to fill men seals the fact that we will be eternal with our creator forever by means of this eternal Gift, the Holy Spirit.

 

[music4Him]

:Fish: There is but one gift, He is the person of the Holy Spirit. Paul admonishes us to cleave to His(the Holy Spirit)best use of us. The way he most commonly uses us. To say that manefestations of THE GIFT will cease in earth is proper, however this Gift come down out of heaven to fill men seals the fact that we will be eternal with our creator forever by means of this eternal Gift, the Holy Spirit.

Yes but Paul also said...
1Cor. 14:1 Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.

 

[jtown5]

Prophesy

Yes, this is true. We should expand on scripture plainly to all. We should make every effort to make the Word of God accessible to all men no matter their level of comprehension. This is the type of Prophesying I believe Paul spoke of. We should be more apt to say five things that can be understood than hundreds that do not find a place to rest in the mind and heart of men.
Blessings,
Jtown5:Fish: raying:

 

[music4Him]

Yes true... and what ever we say or do we should do it in love. raise:

 

[music4Him]

But I still believe the gifts of the Spirit is for today. Not everyone speaks in tongues but theymay walk in another gifting of the Spirit like dicernment of word of knowledge, ect... I found it in the bible in 1 Cor.12.

 

[Link]

Paul lists prophecy, teaching, and exhortation as separate gifts in Romans 12, and prophets and teachers as separate types of ministers in Romans 14.

Prophets speak as moved by the Holy Spirit. God gives them a message, sometimes right then, to share.

Teachers teach precepts of the word they have learned.

But there can be overlap between gifts. Some parts of the Penteteuch, though prophecy, read like teaching.

 

[Brother Bob]

Sick

Who said Baptist don't believe in the "laying on of hands". It has been practiced in our churches as far back as I can find history. I personally know it works! I posted a tread on "healing" and there were those Baptist that were hungry for the news of laying of of hands. I don't know why anyone would not use what God has given them. I layed hands on a man on Kidney Dialysis and he has been off of it for 4 years and still going. There have been countless cases over the last 34 years. So, I do feel from the heart for you if you don't use it. God Bless,
You know what throw this whole thing off; Speaking in Tongues; Well, if they only understood it means languages there would be no problem for I don't think people have a problem with , teachers, healers etc.

BBob

 

[music4Him]

Who said Baptist don't believe in the "laying on of hands". It has been practiced in our churches as far back as I can find history. I personally know it works! I posted a tread on "healing" and there were those Baptist that were hungry for the news of laying of of hands. I don't know why anyone would not use what God has given them. I layed hands on a man on Kidney Dialysis and he has been off of it for 4 years and still going. There have been countless cases over the last 34 years. So, I do feel from the heart for you if you don't use it. God Bless,
You know what throw this whole thing off; Speaking in Tongues; Well, if they only understood it means languages there would be no problem for I don't think people have a problem with , teachers, healers etc.

BBob

Bro. Bob Thank you, you know... right now I could hug your neck! (((hug))) The Baptist church that I used to go to up the road a ways used to have the same attitude as you. But sad to say not all Baptist or even other denominations feel the same way. :flower: