I Got (No) Rhythm

[Aaron]

We can't establish a Bible teaching. We can establish a practice for our local churches.

Based on what? The opinions of men?

I have never in my life been se*ually stirred by rock music. Not once.

"Syncopation--shuffling, shuffling, crooning, syncopation...The jazz tonight has almost roused me to an orgasm." Anais Nin, diary entry, November 10, 1932.

Actually, that's not quite true. We know for a fact they were rhythmic. How? They used timbrels (hand drums), so there was some form of rhythm to them.

Timbrels and brass were not used for rhythm in ancient Israel.

We know from 2 Samuel 6 that David danced with all his might, to the point where his wife described his dancing as undressing in front of everyone; there were trumpets involved. It's a common fact that musical instruments follow some sort of rhythm in the music they play.

Semetic music was arhythmic, as was its poetry; no regular metre.

Yes. Any song or any music is "rhythmic."

Not true. (See above.)




Instead of asserting arbitrary assumption as irrefutable fact, you folks should study the issue.


Back to psalms, hymns and spiritual songs. These are specific forms of music that Paul said we should employ in our interaction. So, instead of citing vague, uninformed platitudes concerning music, I want to know whether or not these were "rhythm-based" (to quote the cumbersome term,) and I want to know how you know.

 

[Mexdeaf]

Love the internet- here's some info on music in Ancient Israel:

http://www.wcg.org/lit/bible/poet/music.htm

http://www.utexas.edu/courses/wilson/ant304/projects/projects98/campbellp/campbellp.html

http://www.usc.edu/dept/LAS/religion/arc/music/index.html (this website is hard to read because of the background but it is interesting)

Also from:http://www.kolel.org/blog/2009/02/parashat-beshalach-exodus-1317-1716.html

Women in the biblical world apparently were expert percussionists. Because ancient Semitic music was more rhythmic than tonal or melodic, hand-drum skills would have made women essential for most musical performances. The victory song genre itself was exclusively female because of the performance context — that is, in the wake of a military victory. In a world with men as the primary combatants the women who remain behind typically are the ones to greet triumphant soldiers returning from battle. It is no wonder that the composition and performance of celebratory hymns became a women’s genre in ancient Israel.

 

[Mexdeaf]

As to 'psalms, hymns, spiritual songs': (from Vine's)

Psalms- a 'sacred song, sung to musical accompaniment'

Hymns- a 'song of praise, addressed to God'

(Spiritual) songs- 'the adjective "spiritual' is added, because the word in itself is generic and might be used of songs anything of spiritual'.

 

[Don]

Instead of asserting arbitrary assumption as irrefutable fact, you folks should study the issue.

Um...have studied it, on several levels. Was a music major for 4 years, percussionist from 7th grade until senior year of college. Those are my qualifications on the subject; please cite yours, and your sources for your statement about the music being arhythmic.

C4K - didn't mean to imply in previous thread that "heavily rhythmic" was attributed to you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Don
Disagree. Scripture says whatsoever you do, do it for the glory of God.


I don't see rock n roll in that verse what so ever. So your Saying God has a problem with 4 / 4 timing?

I see everything in that verse, not just rock and roll. Why should God have a problem with 4/4 timing? I don't think He does; it's the most common timing in every hymnal; and it just happens to be the most common timing used in rock and roll.

So please forgive me, but what was your point?

Salamander -

Quote:
Originally Posted by Don
Wonder what we would say today about David's dancing to/with music in 2 Samuel 6?

We would reveal to all the unsuspecting and simple that David was dancing as a new born lamb did as it frollicked in the open field.

Suggest you go back and read 2 Samuel 6, and see how David's wife described his dancing.

I don't know for sure that David's wife was unsaved; but using the words used by someone else, regarding how a lost person can tell sinful music (something about stripper music), if she was unsaved, then she described him as dancing as the unsaved would; and if she was saved, she was trying to tell him that he was dancing like the unsaved would. Granted, she was in the wrong, and David rebuked her. But appearances are what we're talking about, aren't we?

Feel free to tell folks that he was frolicking like a newborn lamb. Ensure that you tell them that sometimes, frolicking in the Lord can look like something else.

 

[rbell]

Semetic music was arhythmic, as was its poetry; no regular metre.
Not true. (See above.)

Based on what? The opinions of men?
"Syncopation--shuffling, shuffling, crooning, syncopation...The jazz tonight has almost roused me to an orgasm." Anais Nin, diary entry, November 10, 1932.

So...a diary entry from 1932 is as good as Scripture? Hmmm...

Timbrels and brass were not used for rhythm in ancient Israel.

Sorry...what did they do with the timbrels...de-bone fish with them? Come on....

Back to psalms, hymns and spiritual songs. These are specific forms of music that Paul said we should employ in our interaction. So, instead of citing vague, uninformed platitudes concerning music, I want to know whether or not these were "rhythm-based" (to quote the cumbersome term,) and I want to know how you know.

Would those "vague, uninformed platitudes" include 1932 diary entries? My info involves the psalms...we know what instruments were there, and we have quite a good idea of how they sounded.

Semetic music was arhythmic, as was its poetry; no regular metre.

Music doesn't exist without rhythm. That includes Semitic music. How on earth would you have arhythmic music when you have rhythmic instruments to play?

 

[Don]

He's talking about irregular beats, not following the typical 4/4 type that most of us are accustomed to.

Ever heard a 7/4 melody? Or a song that changes time signatures in several different spots? These can be considered arhythmic, and difficult to play. Consider the secular song "Money" by Pink Floyd, and half the music by the group Rush; as well as "Music for Prague" by Karel Husa and many, many others.

When you compare what we have today, to what you can hear on the radio in Arab countries today, it takes a while to get a feel for the Arab music. I never did, and probably never will. There is still a distinct rhythm to them, but it's much more complex than what I studied, or personally like to listen to.

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

This all started because of this quote by a poster about a month ago.

Some music has melody as its dominant component, and is, therefore, melody-based.

Some music has harmony as its dominant component, and is, therefore, harmony-based.

And some music has rhythm as its dominant component, and is, therefore, rhythm-based.

Melody-based music feeds the spiritual side of our being most, our mind less, and our flesh even less.

Harmony-based music feeds the mind most, the spiritual, not so much, but the flesh more than melody-based music does.

Rhythm-based music feeds the flesh first and foremost, the mind to a small degree, and the spiritual side of our makeup starves and grows weak.

All that was asked for was Bible support for this viewpoint. Since then we have had plenty of accusations of worldliness, fleshliness, se*uality, a refusal to listen to God, etc, but no Bible basis for a such a stance.

Is this view wrong or right? I don't know. But it was expressed that the Bible supports this view and that is the issue.

It would be simple to put the debate to rest if someone could show support for this viewpoint from the Bible.

 

[Aaron]

Um...have studied it, on several levels. Was a music major for 4 years, percussionist from 7th grade until senior year of college. Those are my qualifications on the subject; please cite yours, and your sources for your statement about the music being arhythmic.

I didn't see you citing any sources in the other thread, and you demand it of me here?

Mexdeaf, I'll answer your post this evening. Not enough time while at work.

 

[Aaron]

As to 'psalms, hymns, spiritual songs': (from Vine's)

Psalms- a 'sacred song, sung to musical accompaniment'

Hymns- a 'song of praise, addressed to God'

(Spiritual) songs- 'the adjective "spiritual' is added, because the word in itself is generic and might be used of songs anything of spiritual'.

Pretty vague and scant of details. What did a resident of Ephesus think of, when he heard the word "hymn?"

 

[rbell]

Sorry...what did they do with the timbrels...de-bone fish with them? Come on....

I tried de-boning fish last night with my timbrel. It didn't work very well. When I approached my music minister about what I should do with it, he responded in an irritated tone, "Just beat it."

 

[Aaron]

So...a diary entry from 1932 is as good as Scripture? Hmmm...

It's a personal experience cited to contrast with another's personal experience that was vaunted as conclusive proof.

I'm not going to argue the sexuality of rock music here. A fella cited on this board a time or two in support of rock music is quite honest and frank about the sexuality and hedonism of rock. I'll post a link to his thesis with one to my answer. And that will be that concerning the sexuality of rock.

http://www.igracemusic.com/hymnbook/other/criteria.html

http://www.thriftyplanet.net/aaron/IR1.htm

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

Great post on rock music. Thanks.

Now, how about Bible evidence to this topic which started the whole discussion?

Some music has melody as its dominant component, and is, therefore, melody-based.

Some music has harmony as its dominant component, and is, therefore, harmony-based.

And some music has rhythm as its dominant component, and is, therefore, rhythm-based.

Melody-based music feeds the spiritual side of our being most, our mind less, and our flesh even less.

Harmony-based music feeds the mind most, the spiritual, not so much, but the flesh more than melody-based music does.

Rhythm-based music feeds the flesh first and foremost, the mind to a small degree, and the spiritual side of our makeup starves and grows weak.

 

[annsni]

Regardless of what someone wrote in a diary in 1932 (and I'd honestly be looking for the use of the word "orgasmic" and her meaning because it very well might not be a s3xual term), I can safely say I have never been driven to s3xual passion by listening to rock music. Ever.

However last night when I was so stressed that I was ready to cry and I was driving too agressively, I turned on my Passion CD, started listening to a worship song and within minutes, my mind's focus was changed from my anger, frustration and selfishness to worship and praise of my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Honestly, is THAT bad??

 

[Alcott]

Merriam-Webster:

music -- the science or art of ordering tones or sounds in succession, in combination, and in temporal relationships to produce a composition having unity and continuity

rhythm -- the aspect of music comprising all the elements (as accent, meter, and tempo) that relate to forward movement

I'm still waiting for someone to give an example of rhythm-less music.

 

[Tom Bryant]

example of rhythm-less music - me singing... no wait, that's tone deaf music.

sorry :laugh:

 

[Salamander]

Salamander - Suggest you go back and read 2 Samuel 6, and see how David's wife described his dancing.

I don't know for sure that David's wife was unsaved; but using the words used by someone else, regarding how a lost person can tell sinful music (something about stripper music), if she was unsaved, then she described him as dancing as the unsaved would; and if she was saved, she was trying to tell him that he was dancing like the unsaved would. Granted, she was in the wrong, and David rebuked her. But appearances are what we're talking about, aren't we?

Feel free to tell folks that he was frolicking like a newborn lamb. Ensure that you tell them that sometimes, frolicking in the Lord can look like something else.

Read it over several times. Researched it in depth.

David danced in his ephod with "all his might". This garment was one of covering and worn in a worshipping status.

Some dare to say this priestly garment was his "underwear" as if it would coincide with the idea of briefs. Big stretch and a modernistic application.

Michal despised David's dancing thinking his motive was wrong. She had thought he debased his rank as king of the people and thus lowered himself as one the common people. This idea falls under the cursed practice of one's voluntary humility. She despised him in her heart, not whether she had judged his dancing as sinful as you suggest. Actually, I have NEVER heard of that idea, but I have heard she was definitely backsliden on the LORD and had no "right" to chide her king!

Of note: remember, the men and women of Ancient Israel did not dance together.

As far as my being "free" to tell folks he was dancing as a frolicking lamb? may I suggest YOU be the one to do some more study.

 

[Salamander]

So...a diary entry from 1932 is as good as Scripture? Hmmm...

It is associable evidences to suggest some ARE influenced by certain styles of music.

Sorry...what did they do with the timbrels...de-bone fish with them? Come on....

Ah, yes, the old slapstick way of refuting things with sarcasm and jest.

Would those "vague, uninformed platitudes" include 1932 diary entries?

The diary entry is somehow "vague"? I'd think it was more concrete, well, probably on paper.

My info involves the psalms...we know what instruments were there, and we have quite a good idea of how they sounded.

Actually we do not have to rely on idiology to KNOW how they sounded and how they were used. The Jews have preserved their usage of these same instruments of worship.

Music doesn't exist without rhythm.

Really? How is it you are the sole authority on music? What some call "music" may be only noise to others and have no tempo or rhythm.

That includes Semitic music. How on earth would you have arrhythmic music when you have rhythmic instruments to play?

I agree, (gasp!). Semetic music is, well, different, but certainly not "arrhythmic". Neither is Semetic poetry, else it could never be poetry at all.

BTW, notice it is spelled "arrythmic"

 

[Salamander]

This all started because of this quote by a poster about a month ago.



All that was asked for was Bible support for this viewpoint. Since then we have had plenty of accusations of worldliness, fleshliness, se*uality, a refusal to listen to God, etc, but no Bible basis for a such a stance.

Is this view wrong or right? I don't know. But it was expressed that the Bible supports this view and that is the issue.

It would be simple to put the debate to rest if someone could show support for this viewpoint from the Bible.

Of course your modern ideals will NOT accept the following, and you will pervert what I say:

The senior generation would prefer a more placid and solemn sort of melody using traditional hymns accompanied by the organ or piano whilst the younger generation desire to celebrate worship with loud

The above quote is a "refutation" of the "preferences" of some, but when we see the word "solemn" in the Bible, what does it mean?

Solemn:

1. (a.) Marked with religious rites and pomps; enjoined by, or connected with, religion; sacred.
2. (a.) Pertaining to a festival; festive; festal.
3. (a.) Stately; ceremonious; grand.
4. (a.) Fitted to awaken or express serious reflections; marked by seriousness; serious; grave; devout; as, a solemn promise; solemn earnestness.
5. (a.) Real; earnest; downright.
6. (a.) Affectedly grave or serious; as, to put on a solemn face. 7. (a.) Made in form; ceremonious; as, solemn war; conforming with all legal requirements; as, probate in solemn form.

Of course this is the Biblical perspective and doesn't incorporate the ideals of modernism.

Now, if we can only get you to apply the principle, but as experience has taught me, I won't be holding my breath.:sleep:

 

[Salamander]

He's talking about irregular beats, not following the typical 4/4 type that most of us are accustomed to.

Ever heard a 7/4 melody? Or a song that changes time signatures in several different spots? These can be considered arhythmic, and difficult to play. Consider the secular song "Money" by Pink Floyd, and half the music by the group Rush; as well as "Music for Prague" by Karel Husa and many, many others.

When you compare what we have today, to what you can hear on the radio in Arab countries today, it takes a while to get a feel for the Arab music. I never did, and probably never will. There is still a distinct rhythm to them, but it's much more complex than what I studied, or personally like to listen to.

How about 9/8?:smilewinkgrin:

 

[Salamander]

I tried de-boning fish last night with my timbrel. It didn't work very well. When I approached my music minister about what I should do with it, he responded in an irritated tone, "Just beat it."

Maybe he wasn't talking about the timbrel?:tongue3:













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