I Have A Question For You

[Joseph shall add]

At Buba Baptist we always solve questions of such theological distention out behind the outhouse. Pastor normally comes around or is not every heard of again.

 

[Robert William]

Equal parts pastoral and congregational. God calls a man to do His work, and that man leads, but only within the confines of what is biblical, the congregation holds the man <pastor> accountable and can remove him for straying into heresy.

If that was really so, then 80% of Pastors would be fired! The problem is that the majority don't see the heresy.

 

[Anthony Pritchard]

If that was really so, then 80% of Pastors would be fired! The problem is that the majority don't see the heresy.

The reality does not match the biblical pattern, that is true.

 

[Anthony Pritchard]

Thank you for being ethical, friend. Again, I apologize for my hasty conclusion. I looked over the thread three times to see if it was a public post and honestly did not find it. It sounded like something Doc would have written in a PM.

Sadly, we've had members copy and paste PMs to the public forum. That always speaks volumes as to their character.

And I am beginning to see that I was hasty in my first impression of Mr. Cassidy.

 

[Anthony Pritchard]

I am on my mobile phone right now. I looked three times but somehow missed that post. My sincere apologies, Bro. Anthony.

Of course! Not a problem at all.

 

[Anthony Pritchard]

A public apology to Mr. Cassidy. I was too quick in my first impression, and I apologize.

 

[Robert William]

The reality does not match the biblical pattern, that is true.

True Christianity has always hated the world and has been a minority.

 

[TCassidy]

A public apology to Mr. Cassidy. I was too quick in my first impression, and I apologize.

Accepted. Forgiven. Forgotten.

 

[Revmitchell]

You become a Pastor of a church and the church is connected with a group of churches but after you have been Pastor for several years the members tell you they want to leave that fellowship of churches and become independent. What do you do?

Sorry this has been taken off track. It was not necessary. It is a situation that has occured often. Independent Baptist Pastors have often been called to an SBC church and then after a few short years they work to move it away from the SBC. They never liked the SBC to begin with and it was a goal in the back of their mind all along.

Unfortunately church search committees and churches as a whole tend to be ignorant of these things. Churches need to set up guards against such things happening. Pastors need to be more up front about who they are and their intentions.

I believe such behavior is unethical and ungodly.

 

[glad4mercy]

You become a Pastor of a church and the church is connected with a group of churches but after you have been Pastor for several years the members tell you they want to leave that fellowship of churches and become independent. What do you do?

I would pray and ask God for direction, (if I was unsure) and ask Him to open hearts to Whatever His Will is on the matter. Then I would follow His direction, and trust Him with the rest.

That said, If my pastor is a man of God, and I know it, and he makes a decision and some oppose his decision, I tend to go with the pastor unless the decision is immoral or unethical or whatever, which if he is a man of God following God, He will not make such decisions.

But men do make mistakes, SO If I disagree with the pastor, (on a matter that is morally and ethically neutral), I pray for Him that God direct Him, or correct me if I'm wrong.

I do not go to a Congregational church though.

 

[Anthony Pritchard]

True Christianity has always hated the world and has been a minority.

Yes! God has always had His remnant.

 

[TCassidy]

The reality does not match the biblical pattern, that is true.

That may be true as a general observation, but under the Baptist umbrella there are sub-sets of Baptists that are doing things right, and other sub-sets that go to one extreme or the other.

And even within the sub-sets there are often variations. I was saved, baptized, and married in an Independent Baptist church loosely affiliated with the General Association of Regular Baptist Churches. I attended a Seminary that had been loosely affiliated with the Conservative Baptist Association but left that Association in the 1960s due to "compromise."

I taught in a Baptist College associated with the Baptist Bible Fellowship, which later broke away and formed the Western States Association of Baptists. `

I also taught in a Seminary that was Independent but loosely affiliated with the "Unaffiliated Baptist Fellowship" (and, yes, I understand the irony of that statement).

I now, in my retirement, am a member of a very conservative Southern Baptist Church.

In all of that I have seen every extreme of church polity, from Pastoral Dictatorship to Deacon run churches where the pastor is a mere hireling. I have seen good Congregational Government by a spirit filled pastor and membership, contrasted with the despotism of a "prominent" family.

But, in my opinion, for the most part, even in the sub-sets, most churches are doing the best they can to follow the leading of the Lord.

It is easy for us to criticize other churches without being fully aware of the situation and environment of those churches we choose to criticize.

And it is equally easy for us to have had a bad experience in a church and assume most all churches have similar failings.

 

[Anthony Pritchard]

That may be true as a general observation, but under the Baptist umbrella there are sub-sets of Baptists that are doing things right, and other sub-sets that go to one extreme or the other.

And even within the sub-sets there are often variations. I was saved, baptized, and married in an Independent Baptist church loosely affiliated with the General Association of Regular Baptist Churches. I attended a Seminary that had been loosely affiliated with the Conservative Baptist Association but left that Association in the 1960s due to "compromise."

I taught in a Baptist College associated with the Baptist Bible Fellowship, which later broke away and formed the Western States Association of Baptists. `

I also taught in a Seminary that was Independent but loosely affiliated with the "Unaffiliated Baptist Fellowship" (and, yes, I understand the irony of that statement).

I now, in my retirement, am a member of a very conservative Southern Baptist Church.

In all of that I have seen every extreme of church polity, from Pastoral Dictatorship to Deacon run churches where the pastor is a mere hireling. I have seen good Congregational Government by a spirit filled pastor and membership, contrasted with the despotism of a "prominent" family.

But, in my opinion, for the most part, even in the sub-sets, most churches are doing the best they can to follow the leading of the Lord.

It is easy for us to criticize other churches without being fully aware of the situation and environment of those churches we choose to criticize.

And it is equally easy for us to have had a bad experience in a church and assume most all churches have similar failings.

Things are not as black and white to my mind as they once were, I've learned that I have much to learn.

I was born into the family of God in Feb. 1979, aboard my US Navy Destroyer USS Blandy DD-943 at the age of 23, anchored off the coast of Iran. Experiencing an immediate and intense hunger for the truth, for the Word of God, I found that the hunger for the Word was a natural result of that Salvation experience.

That hunger has grown from the milk of the Word to include the meat, and has never abated.

I make no claim of expertise, even after these almost 40 years of study and schooling, including a minor in Theology, not that it did me that much good. Although many truths are axiomatic, some are not and require study, prayer, and fasting. Though there are many applications of scripture, there are only two interpretations, correct and incorrect, in my humble opinion.

I prefer the KJV, for many reasons, but will not argue the issue. If someone else uses another version, well, as scripture says, "let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind".

 

[Salty]

You don't believe in Congregational Government? But isn't that one of the hallmarks of being a Baptist? ...

Many Baptists churches are going to Elder led rule

 

[TCassidy]

Many Baptists churches are going to Elder led rule

Then they are no longer Baptist.

 

[Squire Robertsson]

To me what is referred to as an elder led church is deep water presbyterian or to put it in political terms an oligarchy. From what I have seen over the years, a properly governed NT church (I use that to include both Bible and Baptist churches) resembles what happens in a classic New England town\village.

• There is at least an Annual Town Meeting to set the taxes and budget for the year.
• There is the Board of Selectmen to carry out the budget.
• And there is a strong mayor to oversee the executive functions of the town.

 

[Revmitchell]

Many Baptists churches are going to Elder led rule

There is a distinct difference between elder led and elder ruled.

 

[John of Japan]

Good grief TCassidy. As if there is no middle ground between what you, in your crudely stated opinion, call a "dictatorship" and an ecclesiastical hierarchy above the local church. You really run roughshod over people here; and that is my opinion.

Tom Cassidy has served Christ full time and faithfully for decades, and is highly educated with an earned doctorate. He deserves respect. I don't know what you've seen of him on other threads, but so far in this thread he seems quite reasonable to me. It is after all the "Baptist Board," and two Baptist distinctives are the autonomy of the local church (as opposed to an ecclesiastical machine), and congregational rule (as opposed to a pastoral dictatorship).

Also, surely you have noticed that this is a debate thread. Many people can't handle debates, which are by nature confrontational. If that bothers you....

 

[John of Japan]

So far it seems, to me, that this forum is all about TCassidy.

That is my impression at this point.

As Paul said "some that commend themselves", and again "But of these who seemed to be somewhat, (whatsoever they were, it maketh no matter to me: God accepteth no man's person for they who seemed to be somewhat in conference added nothing to me:".

Just my impression of the personality, not a judgement of what he believes as I do not know much of his theology.

Wow, "all about TCassidy"? You certainly have not been here long, and you are being judgmental, in spite of your "meek" demeanor. There are many, many threads where Tom is not present. In fact, I'm miffed. I'm in a couple right now where he is not participating.

The BB is quite the place. I've been sharpened many times by others here, including Tom, with whom I disagree in a number of key areas. (I'm dispensational, and he's not, for example.) Stick around and learn.

 

[John of Japan]

If that was really so, then 80% of Pastors would be fired! The problem is that the majority don't see the heresy.

Wow, you really believe that 80% of pastors teach heresy? That's harsh.