I have a question

[Judith]

I have been taught that we the gentiles are grafted in because the Jew rejected Jesus. They being the true vine. For now they are not being saved in any great numbers as this is the age of the gentile.
When the church is removed in the rapture will God turn from the gentile like He has the Jew and start saving the Jew instead of the gentile? Thanks for your replies.

 

[HAMel]

Jesus came that we might "all" have life. Spreading the word was to begin in Jerusalem first and then encompass the entire world.

I don't consider gentiles as being grafted in at all.

 

[12strings]

(Romans 11:17-36) But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root of the olive tree, do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you. Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off. And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again. For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, the natural branches, be grafted back into their own olive tree.
Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written,
“The Deliverer will come from Zion,
he will banish ungodliness from Jacob”;
“and this will be my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.”
As regards the gospel, they are enemies for your sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. For just as you were at one time disobedient to God but now have received mercy because of their disobedience, so they too have now been disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to you they also may now receive mercy. For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all.
Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways!
“For who has known the mind of the Lord,
or who has been his counselor?”
“Or who has given a gift to him
that he might be repaid?”
For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen. (Romans 11:17-36)

This passage is where that comes from. I don't know how one can read this and say gentiles were not grafted in.

There are several interpretations of this:

1. Dispensational: God, because of the Jews unbelief has hardened them for a time, but in the last days multitudes of Jews will be saved.

2. Covenantal: God has grafted in the gentiles and actually made them the NEW ISRAEL, such that the church is now considered as God's covenant people, and there is no special future plan for nationalistic Israel.

3. Other options: God hardened the jews just for the short years after jesus, to allow for the spread of the gospel to gentiles, but as soon as the gentiles started belieiving, that hardening was lifted so that jews and gentiles were coming to faith. This idea could possibly fit with either of the 2 main views above.

Personally, It seems to me that for the most part, the church has inherited the promised blessings of the new covenant promised to Israel...however I'm not sure if there is some future final plan for actual israel. fitting with this general view, I believe nationality has no bearing today on whether one can come to Christ.

 

[InTheLight]

This is a controversial subject and I thank 12Strings for handling it fairly.

This passage is where that comes from. I don't know how one can read this and say gentiles were not grafted in.

There are several interpretations of this:

1. Dispensational: God, because of the Jews unbelief has hardened them for a time, but in the last days multitudes of Jews will be saved.

There is Biblical evidence for this.

Acts 28
“....The Holy Spirit spoke rightly through Isaiah the prophet to our fathers, 26 saying,

‘Go to this people and say:
“Hearing you will hear, and shall not understand;
And seeing you will see, and not perceive;
27 For the hearts of this people have grown dull.
Their ears are hard of hearing,
And their eyes they have closed,
Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears,
Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn,
So that I should heal them.”’

28 “Therefore let it be known to you that the salvation of God has been sent to the Gentiles, and they will hear it!”

2. Covenantal: God has grafted in the gentiles and actually made them the NEW ISRAEL, such that the church is now considered as God's covenant people, and there is no special future plan for nationalistic Israel.

There is oblique references to this in the Bible but I haven't seen anything clear cut. Willing to learn, though.

3. Other options: God hardened the jews just for the short years after jesus, to allow for the spread of the gospel to gentiles, but as soon as the gentiles started belieiving, that hardening was lifted so that jews and gentiles were coming to faith. This idea could possibly fit with either of the 2 main views above.

But there is no widespread evidence of multitudes of Jews coming to Christ after the 1st century.

Personally, It seems to me that for the most part, the church has inherited the promised blessings of the new covenant promised to Israel.

Where is the scriptural support for this view?

fitting with this general view, I believe nationality has no bearing today on whether one can come to Christ.

Agreed.

 

[webdog]

I have been taught that we the gentiles are grafted in because the Jew rejected Jesus. They being the true vine. For now they are not being saved in any great numbers as this is the age of the gentile.
When the church is removed in the rapture will God turn from the gentile like He has the Jew and start saving the Jew instead of the gentile? Thanks for your replies.

Excellent question! I am on the fence concerning who will be saved during the great tribulation. I at one point thought that gentiles would be excluded, then I believed that the Jews would be the ones through which the gospel would be spread to the gentiles, now I am not sure. Interesting in following this thread along with you!

Oh, and welcome to the BB!

 

[DiamondLady]

I have been taught that we the gentiles are grafted in because the Jew rejected Jesus. They being the true vine. For now they are not being saved in any great numbers as this is the age of the gentile.
When the church is removed in the rapture will God turn from the gentile like He has the Jew and start saving the Jew instead of the gentile? Thanks for your replies.

The 144,000 witnesses mentioned in Revelation are Jewish virgins...sent by God to witness to the Jewish people. Will there be a great number saved? Not by any Biblical account, no. However, God will protect a remnant during the Great Tribulation period. Many scholars believe they will escape to Petra where they will be safe from all of Satan's plans to annihlate them.

There are many who also believe there will be no people saved during the tribulation because the Holy Spirit will be taken away. I disagree. I believe, while difficult, there will be some who come to Christ during the tribulation.

I believe the saved who escape the wrath of the Antichrist as well as the Jewish Remnant will be what repopulates the earth during the millennial reign.

I am no great gifted Biblical scholar, but I find it most interesting to study the end times. I am always interested in the opinions of others.

 

[freeatlast]

I have been taught that we the gentiles are grafted in because the Jew rejected Jesus. They being the true vine. For now they are not being saved in any great numbers as this is the age of the gentile.
When the church is removed in the rapture will God turn from the gentile like He has the Jew and start saving the Jew instead of the gentile? Thanks for your replies.

Hello Judith,
great question. As far as I know there is no clear statement in scripture in regards to your question to give an absolute answer. However that being said if we look at how God has worked in the past I think that we could reasonably assume that once the church is removed He will again focus on the Jew and not the gentile.
.Now does that men that no gentile can be saved during that time? No I don't think so because in the OT there was a few who came to God and now while it is the church age there are a few Jews who come into the church. So with that I am of the mind, unless there is some passage that suggests differently, that the Gentile will be set aside as the main focus, although not totally forbidden, and the Jew will again be the main focus. So I think that we will see a reverse of what we see today. Today it is mostly gentiles with very few Jews coming to Christ and then mostly Jews with very few Gentiles coming to Christ.

 

[agedman]

Judith,

The Scriptures clearly teach that ALL Israel will be saved. How this is accomplished is only alluded to (in my opinion) in the Scriptures, but it is never the less, true.

In this area, I think some of the covenant theology folks (who consider there are multiple covenants and that the church replaced Israel) have it wrong.

Look at the following from Romans which expresses the thinking about Israel, the current generalized unbelief, and the coming day in which they shall be redeemed as God promised.

Romans 11:

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.​

 

[Yeshua1]

I have been taught that we the gentiles are grafted in because the Jew rejected Jesus. They being the true vine. For now they are not being saved in any great numbers as this is the age of the gentile.
When the church is removed in the rapture will God turn from the gentile like He has the Jew and start saving the Jew instead of the gentile? Thanks for your replies.

Since the time isreal as a nation rejected their jewish Messiah, the Lord has been in his saving both jews/gentiles thru yeshua phase, and after rapture, he will go back to fulfillment of all national jews alive at that time, when Christ returns!

 

[saturneptune]

Excellent question! I am on the fence concerning who will be saved during the great tribulation. I at one point thought that gentiles would be excluded, then I believed that the Jews would be the ones through which the gospel would be spread to the gentiles, now I am not sure. Interesting in following this thread along with you!

Oh, and welcome to the BB!

Web, this is one of those subjects I have gone from sure of what I believe to having doubts. I used to believe in pre trib, pre mil, and when I was younger than you are now, read a lot of Hal Lindsey books. About 30 years ago, we had a pastor who challanged us to find a proof text for the Rapture. To make a long story short, no one could. I tend to still believe in the Rapture, but it is not rock solid.

Given that there is a Rapture, I always thought of salvation during that time as more limited, maybe as in the OT, for specific purposes, instead of a age of grace as now. In Rev 4:1, when John is told to come up here, the church is never mentioned again. If that is the Rapture, then it also follows the Holy Spirit in all the Christians is no longer present on earth in the same way. (This is just my thoughts) Maybe a lessening of the Holy Spirit on earth instead a removal.

Is the Rapture (if there is one) the end of an age of grace for the Gentiles? I do believe the Jews are still God's chosen people, and He is not through dealing with them. The OT has a rocky and rotating relationship between the Lord and Israel. The Tribulation does have 144.000 Jews enpowered to spread the Word of God, and the two supernatural witnesses.

Sorry for the rambling. Wish I had a better grasp of God's dealing with His chosen people.

 

[Iconoclast]

I have been taught that we the gentiles are grafted in because the Jew rejected Jesus. They being the true vine. For now they are not being saved in any great numbers as this is the age of the gentile.
When the church is removed in the rapture will God turn from the gentile like He has the Jew and start saving the Jew instead of the gentile? Thanks for your replies.

Welcome to the BB,

Yes...romans 11.....along with mt 21:43 indicate this.

As others have said.....there are 4 main views taught in the church.

God now saves an elect remnant of physical jews now,along with gentiles as there is one new man in Christ eph 2;11-22

Scripture does indicate more physical jews will be saved before the last day.

Some believe the rapture is the last day...because of jn 6

Others believe it is in the middle of a future 7 yr tribulation period...that they call the time of jacobs trouble ..jer 30:7

take some time ,learn the main views accurately...in the mean time serve and worship thre lord and win the lost!:wavey:

 

[Judith]

Thanks for all the answers.

 

[Dale-c]

My understanding is that we are grafted in to the spiritual nation of Isreal. Remember in Romans 9 it says that not all Isreal is of Isreal. meaning that not all who are Isreal according the the flesh really are God's people.
On the other hand, all gentiles who have faith in Christ will be part of Isreal in a spiritual and eternal sense, ie they will be saved and thus God's people.

 

[convicted1]

My understanding is that we are grafted in to the spiritual nation of Isreal. Remember in Romans 9 it says that not all Isreal is of Isreal. meaning that not all who are Isreal according the the flesh really are God's people.
On the other hand, all gentiles who have faith in Christ will be part of Isreal in a spiritual and eternal sense, ie they will be saved and thus God's people.

BINGO!!! We are all Jews, inwardly, via the she blood of Christ.....


Give this Brother a Cee-gar..........

 

[Yeshua1]

BINGO!!! We are all Jews, inwardly, via the she blood of Christ.....


Give this Brother a Cee-gar..........

no, as the bible clearly states that those physical jews who receive yeshua will be the 'true/spiritual" Jews, showing themselves as part of the family of faith of Abraham...

gentiles saved by same Messiah, but God still sees spiritual jews seperate from gentile believers...

At second coming, Church alread been translated, and THEN God completes/fulfills/keeps His promise to have jesus established and ruling over national isreal, when jesus reigns/rules from Jerusalem after His return!

 

[convicted1]

no, as the bible clearly states that those physical jews who receive yeshua will be the 'true/spiritual" Jews, showing themselves as part of the family of faith of Abraham...

gentiles saved by same Messiah, but God still sees spiritual jews seperate from gentile believers...

At second coming, Church alread been translated, and THEN God completes/fulfills/keeps His promise to have jesus established and ruling over national isreal, when jesus reigns/rules from Jerusalem after His return!

Well, I am in the amill camp, and do not agree with you. I will not get in this debate, and I will leave it to those of like minds.

 

[Yeshua1]

Well, I am in the amill camp, and do not agree with you. I will not get in this debate, and I will leave it to those of like minds.

Do you hold that God no longer sees national jews, but only saved people as being jewish?

 

[convicted1]

Do you hold that God no longer sees national jews, but only saved people as being jewish?

God only looks upon the heart of man(1 Sam. 16:7). Jesus died, and tore the middle wall of partition down, so that both Jew and Gentile have access to Him through the Son.

 

[Yeshua1]

God only looks upon the heart of man(1 Sam. 16:7). Jesus died, and tore the middle wall of partition down, so that both Jew and Gentile have access to Him through the Son.

Agree with that, but are you saying God just 'sees" Jews once saved by Christ? No longer gentiles, like we have now 'jewish blood?"

 

[convicted1]

Agree with that, but are you saying God just 'sees" Jews once saved by Christ? No longer gentiles, like we have now 'jewish blood?"

Before Christ came, God's focus was on the Jews, His chosen ones. There were some Gentiles who came in (Ruth and Rahab come to mind), but His main focus was on His chosen people. Now that Jesus has torn down the middle wall of partition, His focus in on the "whosoevers", those who believe, whether they be Jew or Gentile.

Ehesians 2:11-22

11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.

18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:

22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.


Galatians 3:26-29

26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.


Christ came so that we, both Jew and Gentile, could have access to the Father. The Jews have to come to God, through faith in His Son, just like we Gentiles do.