I JUST HAVE TO GO PRESBYTERIAN

[Smyth]

I grew up in a PCA church, and there is no justification for going Presbyterian. The PCUSA is apostate for recognizing same sex marriages. The Cumberlands ordain women pastors All Presbyterians sprinkle infants, totally unscriptural and a pagan ritual of the RCC. They have hierarchies that are totally at odds with the NT churches in the Bible. They practice elder rule which has no Biblical foundation. They believe the Universal Church has some function on earth when God's work is carried out by the local church. They say creeds Sunday after Sunday which were written my man, and therefore flawed. They say them so often the words become meaningless and the creed turns into a chant. They waste money on presbyteries, synods and general assemblies which could go to missionaries and to help the poor. They believe at the Lords Supper the Lord as a spiritual presence, while the Bible says its symbolic, the key phrase being "do this in remembrance of Me." The hierarchy interferes with choosing pastor, choosing Sunday School material, forming the budget for local churches, and approving upgrades and repair of the church.

There's truth in all that you've said, but other than apostate PCUSA, don't you think you're being a little harsh? How much money is really being wasted on their small bureaucracy? Is spending 30 seconds once a week reciting the Apostle's creed really a deal breaker? Cumberland's women pastors and the sprinkling are two things I have a strong objection to, but they're not deal breakers for me (I wouldn't attend a church with a woman pastor, but I might attend a church with a male pastor in a denomination with women pastors, if nothing better were close.)

I could find faults with any church, including serious faults. But, the only deal breaker for me is a deliberate unwillingness of a church to follow the Bible, before I'd stay home on Sunday morning. I've never been to a PCA or OPC church, but I have the impression that they have a sincere belief that they're following the Bible. (The Apostle's creed isn't in the Bible, but neither is any hymn any church sings. But, they're Bible-compatible.)

 

[tyndale1946]

I grew up in a PCA church, and there is no justification for going Presbyterian. The PCUSA is apostate for recognizing same sex marriages. The Cumberlands ordain women pastors All Presbyterians sprinkle infants, totally unscriptural and a pagan ritual of the RCC. They have hierarchies that are totally at odds with the NT churches in the Bible. They practice elder rule which has no Biblical foundation. They believe the Universal Church has some function on earth when God's work is carried out by the local church. They say creeds Sunday after Sunday which were written my man, and therefore flawed. They say them so often the words become meaningless and the creed turns into a chant. They waste money on presbyteries, synods and general assemblies which could go to missionaries and to help the poor. They believe at the Lords Supper the Lord as a spiritual presence, while the Bible says its symbolic, the key phrase being "do this in remembrance of Me." The hierarchy interferes with choosing pastor, choosing Sunday School material, forming the budget for local churches, and approving upgrades and repair of the church.

EWF/Brother Steve you know how I feel towards you my brother and I am not as judgemental as some... You go to where God directs you... There is a reason where you are where you are... If God is not directing you who is?... Go where your heart tells you to go and if you do will not God make to prosper?... Does he not have children in that church too?... You would be a great addition to any church and don't let anyone tell you any different... If you have to go to the Presbyterian Church go and hold your head high as a believer in Jesus Christ... You can discern doctrine you know what you believe and what you don't... Follow your heart Steve and not your head... I have been there and am doing that now... Brought up in a grace church of the Calvinist slant that is why I know how Calvinist think was one for 50 years... Married a woman whose belief is Arminian after I lost my first wife... Did it change my belief in grace and how the Calvinist see it... No way!... I listen to sermons from Arminian pastors and rightly divide the word of truth... I've been grounded in doctrine for over 50 years and none on here can check any of my post since I've been on here and can say that any have anything but Doctrines of Grace on here... You can't fellowship dogma Steve only people... Follow your heart my dear brother in Christ Jesus and you will see... Brother Glen

 

[Martin Marprelate]

While I disagree with lots of Presbyterian dogma, I do not see any true baptist churches in my neck of the woods so I am forced to conclude that to satisfy my need for a church that I will have to swallow my pride & start going to the local OPC church down the road from where I live. And I dread it...the horror of having to deal with paedo/ sacramental types frankly bothers me.

Brother, if it is an evangelical fellowship, go with my blessing (not that you need it!). You need to have Christian fellowship, and if that's the only place you can get it locally, I say go for it.

I greatly abhor infant baptism, but I can't deny that many paedobaptists have had their ministries blessed by God. I think Mark 9:38-41 is your text. You don't have to come into membership and if a good Baptist church is planted near to you, you can join it.

 

[utilyan]

Any reason you could not help start a Baptist church?

^ that's what i'm talking about...... God has called you. lol

You can ask Biblicist to move in with you guys =)

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

EWF/Brother Steve you know how I feel towards you my brother and I am not as judgemental as some... You go to where God directs you... There is a reason where you are where you are... If God is not directing you who is?... Go where your heart tells you to go and if you do will not God make to prosper?... Does he not have children in that church too?... You would be a great addition to any church and don't let anyone tell you any different... If you have to go to the Presbyterian Church go and hold your head high as a believer in Jesus Christ... You can discern doctrine you know what you believe and what you don't... Follow your heart Steve and not your head... I have been there and am doing that now... Brought up in a grace church of the Calvinist slant that is why I know how Calvinist think was one for 50 years... Married a woman whose belief is Arminian after I lost my first wife... Did it change my belief in grace and how the Calvinist see it... No way!... I listen to sermons from Arminian pastors and rightly divide the word of truth... I've been grounded in doctrine for over 50 years and none on here can check any of my post since I've been on here and can say that any have anything but Doctrines of Grace on here... You can't fellowship dogma Steve only people... Follow your heart my dear brother in Christ Jesus and you will see... Brother Glen

Thank you Glen.But I promise that if I get the chance, I'm going to be a Baptist again.​

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Any reason you could not help start a Baptist church?

Well if you accept Mark's thinking only an established bible believing church can plant churches

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

^ that's what i'm talking about...... God has called you. lol

You can ask Biblicist to move in with you guys =)

LOL..... I've been asking forhelp for 5 years now but most pass on the offer.

 

[tyndale1946]

Thank you Glen.But I promise that if I get the chance, I'm going to be a Baptist again.​

Remember the order... Christian comes first... Baptist comes second... Seems we all forget Gods people are in every denomination... I was dogmatic for over 50 years... Just recently I found my heart... Since that is where the Lords heart is, shouldn't the heart of his people be there also?... Doctrine is head... Discipleship/Fellowship is heart... Fill the need where you are needed... Sometimes we fight against God where he wants us to go... Let go and let God... Believe me there is a reason and we may not see it now but there is!... Brother Glen

 

[pilgrim_99]

There's truth in all that you've said, but other than apostate PCUSA, don't you think you're being a little harsh? How much money is really being wasted on their small bureaucracy? Is spending 30 seconds once a week reciting the Apostle's creed really a deal breaker? Cumberland's women pastors and the sprinkling are two things I have a strong objection to, but they're not deal breakers for me (I wouldn't attend a church with a woman pastor, but I might attend a church with a male pastor in a denomination with women pastors, if nothing better were close.)

I could find faults with any church, including serious faults. But, the only deal breaker for me is a deliberate unwillingness of a church to follow the Bible, before I'd stay home on Sunday morning. I've never been to a PCA or OPC church, but I have the impression that they have a sincere belief that they're following the Bible. (The Apostle's creed isn't in the Bible, but neither is any hymn any church sings. But, they're Bible-compatible.)

Bingo on the Creed vs Hymns. This is probably why there was the hymn singing controversy among early Baptists. And it is why the strictest Presbyterians only sing Psalms and do not say the creed, etc.

 

[pilgrim_99]

I grew up in a PCA church, and there is no justification for going Presbyterian. The PCUSA is apostate for recognizing same sex marriages. The Cumberlands ordain women pastors All Presbyterians sprinkle infants, totally unscriptural and a pagan ritual of the RCC. They have hierarchies that are totally at odds with the NT churches in the Bible. They practice elder rule which has no Biblical foundation. They believe the Universal Church has some function on earth when God's work is carried out by the local church. They say creeds Sunday after Sunday which were written my man, and therefore flawed. They say them so often the words become meaningless and the creed turns into a chant. They waste money on presbyteries, synods and general assemblies which could go to missionaries and to help the poor. They believe at the Lords Supper the Lord as a spiritual presence, while the Bible says its symbolic, the key phrase being "do this in remembrance of Me." The hierarchy interferes with choosing pastor, choosing Sunday School material, forming the budget for local churches, and approving upgrades and repair of the church.

From a Baptist perspective, of course what separates them from Baptists is unbiblical and erroneous.

But with regard to your last sentence, the only one of those that is valid with regard to the PCA, OPC, EPC and some smaller denominations is choosing a pastor. You're much more likely to see uniformity among Southern Baptists with regard to Sunday School material than you will with conservative Presbyterians. (That's why some Baptists opposed the Sunday School Board (now Lifeway) to begin with.) Some if not all of those Presbyterian denominations don't produce any S.S. material at all. If some is produced, there is generally no expectation that it will be used in any particular congregation. In this sense as well as raising missionary support, some are actually LESS connectional than the SBC in practice when it comes to some things. (Based on what you've written here, I'm sure you object to the SBC as well, but I'm just using it for comparison purposes.) They generally "waste" a lot less money than the SBC, in part because they aren't supporting colleges, children's homes, seminaries and so on. (Most of the conservative Presbyterian seminaries are actually independent. RTS and WTS are the most prominent examples.) I doubt they "waste" more money on Presbytery and General Assembly (none of them have Synods, unlike the PCUSA) than Southern Baptists do on Associations, state conventions and the SBC annual meeting. So many of those objections would also apply to the SBC as much or more than they would to the PCA.

It seems that you're confusing them with the PCUSA in this regard where the denomination owns the building. That's not the case with the denominations like the above named ones that have broken away from it. They can pretty much leave whenever they want and there is little from a practical standpoint that the presbytery or denomination can do about it other than plead with them to remain.

 

[The American Dream]

From a Baptist perspective, of course what separates them from Baptists is unbiblical and erroneous.

But with regard to your last sentence, the only one of those that is valid with regard to the PCA, OPC, EPC and some smaller denominations is choosing a pastor. You're much more likely to see uniformity among Southern Baptists with regard to Sunday School material than you will with conservative Presbyterians. (That's why some Baptists opposed the Sunday School Board (now Lifeway) to begin with.) Some if not all of those Presbyterian denominations don't produce any S.S. material at all. If some is produced, there is generally no expectation that it will be used in any particular congregation. In this sense as well as raising missionary support, some are actually LESS connectional than the SBC in practice when it comes to some things. (Based on what you've written here, I'm sure you object to the SBC as well, but I'm just using it for comparison purposes.) They generally "waste" a lot less money than the SBC, in part because they aren't supporting colleges, children's homes, seminaries and so on. (Most of the conservative Presbyterian seminaries are actually independent. RTS and WTS are the most prominent examples.) I doubt they "waste" more money on Presbytery and General Assembly (none of them have Synods, unlike the PCUSA) than Southern Baptists do on Associations, state conventions and the SBC annual meeting. So many of those objections would also apply to the SBC as much or more than they would to the PCA.

It seems that you're confusing them with the PCUSA in this regard where the denomination owns the building. That's not the case with the denominations like the above named ones that have broken away from it. They can pretty much leave whenever they want and there is little from a practical standpoint that the presbytery or denomination can do about it other than plead with them to remain.

That is why all SBC churches are local autonomous churches. We do not need approval of the SBC to send out missionaries. Our church supports two on our own. The PCA may have changed since I left 36 years ago in details you cite. The fact remains, they have a hierarchy, which patterns the RCC, not the Bible. There are three basic models of church organization . RCC, universal, visible,,,,,Protestant universal, invisible........Baptist local, visible.........The PCUSA is pathetic and apostate. Sanctioning same sex marriage puts them out of the realm of the definition of a NT Christian church. Presbyterian elder rule is suppose to be elected based on spiritual maturity, but in most cases they are elected on social standing. I do know one thing also, growing up in the South in the 50s and 60s. The social structure of segregation was evil and an affront to the Second Great Commandment and God. These pastors in their white churches should have been at the forefront as a representative of Christ of speaking out. Not only did pastors in the Presbyterian Church ignore it, they participated in it. How could anyone who had been called to the ministry and been to seminary, a leader of the people of Christ, get up Sunday after Sunday and ignore it. Wonder how many are in Heaven today. Presbyterians worship services are like a library. No opportunity to express what God is doing in a persons heart. Here is how a typical service ends............End of Sermon.............Small verse..........choral refrain.............march out like robots.............Will you please explain to me how one is baptized before they have any idea what the Gospel means? It would be more meaningful to baptize my pet cat. The parent child covenant is a myth. Everyone is responsible for their own sins. How can one repeat the Apostles Creed every Sunday when it is so full of flawed wording. For example, " I believe in the Holy Catholic church." Hogwash,,,,, One believing that means Universal Church, there is no function for the Universal Church on this earth. The Universal Church never took up an offering, preached a sermon, helped the sick and poor, sang a hymn, administered the Lords Supper and Baptism, sent out a missionary, told the Gospel to the lost, etc. The local church carries out the work of the Lord. Sprinkling infants is unbiblical from the RCC, which makes it a pagan ritual.

 

[Smyth]

That is why all SBC churches are local autonomous churches.

The SBC church I attend uses Lifeway Sunday School lesson books, complete with HCSB puke presented as verse quotes. At least NKJV is still in the pews, for now. It doesn't feel so autonomous. The SBC is so huge that they even have their own Bible translation, let alone "helps" for every single thing a church might do. And, also the SBC has a very busy Baptist convention deciding all sorts of issues for local churches, even if not necessary binding.

Presbyterian elder rule is suppose to be elected based on spiritual maturity, but in most cases they are elected on social standing.

Baptist churches have elder rule, too, equally susceptible to selection by social standing rather than spiritual maturity. The pastor is an elder. Baptist churches often have multiple pastors and even people identified as elders.

I do know one thing also, growing up in the South in the 50s and 60s. The social structure of segregation was evil and an affront to the Second Great Commandment and God. These pastors in their white churches should have been at the forefront as a representative of Christ of speaking out. Not only did pastors in the Presbyterian Church ignore it, they participated in it.

I hope you're not suggesting Baptist preachers were innocent of this, or even relatively innocent?

Presbyterians worship services are like a library. No opportunity to express what God is doing in a persons heart. Here is how a typical service ends............End of Sermon.............Small verse..........choral refrain.............march out like robots.............Will you please explain to me how one is baptized before they have any idea what the Gospel means?

Maybe a service that invites emoting isn't everyone's preference? You should try a Pentecostal church.
Many Baptist churches likewise present "no opportunity to express what God is doing in a persons heart." Their end-of-service routine might be just a little less repetitive (a random praise song rather than a choral refrain).

It would be more meaningful to baptize my pet cat.

What's done in faith in not a sin, so you're flat out wrong about equating Presbyterian baptism with baptizing you cat.

 

[Zenas]

I actually dont want to join....but Ive not spoken to the Presbyterian Pastor about it. However if the Baptist Pastor (a distance away) would be willing to allow attendance once a month, then I would have to take a hard look at it.

ALLOW? I don't know what world you live in but if regular attendance were a requirement for membership in my Association the membership would be less than 1/3 of what it is now. You should not join a church that has a pastor who tells you how often you must attend.

 

[FriendofSpurgeon]

While I disagree with lots of Presbyterian dogma, I do not see any true baptist churches in my neck of the woods so I am forced to conclude that to satisfy my need for a church that I will have to swallow my pride & start going to the local OPC church down the road from where I live. And I dread it...the horror of having to deal with paedo/ sacramental types frankly bothers me.

As the (or one of the) resident Presbyterians on this board, let me say welcome. I attend a PCA church, but have friends in the OPC denomination as well, which is a bit more conservative. We have many "Baptisterians" in our own midst as well. Some are members. Some are not. All are welcome - and no one is considered second-class.

My guess is that you and your family will be warmly welcomed and that the pastor and members will respect your doctrinal differences. Also, you may find these differences (while real) may pale in comparison to our common faith in our Lord. Blessings, FoS

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

ALLOW? I don't know what world you live in but if regular attendance were a requirement for membership in my Association the membership would be less than 1/3 of what it is now. You should not join a church that has a pastor who tells you how often you must attend.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Z......didn't you read my earlier post about my kid brother? 2 weeks a go they came to his house UNANNOUNCED & excommunicated him ....an IFB Stooge that claims he is a Baptist that claims to be a pastor.

 

[rsr]

While I would like you to attend a Baptist church, I understand your frustration. Aside from the paedobapist thing and perhaps covenentalism, you should feel more or less at home in an Orthodox Presbyterian Church. I'm not a Landmarker, so I believe that an OPC congregation can be a real New Testament church. Good luck to you.

 

[Zenas]

Z......didn't you read my earlier post about my kid brother? 2 weeks a go they came to his house UNANNOUNCED & excommunicated him ....an IFB Stooge that claims he is a Baptist that claims to be a pastor.

Exactly what I'm talking about. What I don't understand is how do these IFB pastors get away with this. They are employees of the local church and the local church can and should send them packing when they try this stuff.

For the most part you have received good advice on this thread, except for Biblicist and American Dream who have views of Scripture almost unique to themselves. Go to the Presbyterian church. You will find them a lot more liberal than you but you will also find a warm and caring congregation who loves the Lord and are seeking to do His will.

 

[Smyth]

For the most part you have received good advice on this thread, except for Biblicist and American Dream who have views of Scripture almost unique to themselves. Go to the Presbyterian church. You will find them a lot more liberal than you but you will also find a warm and caring congregation who loves the Lord and are seeking to do His will.

I don't think it's reasonable to call the PCA or OPC Liberal. PCUSA is apostate and not warm and caring.

 

[annsni]

I would be totally comfortable going to an OPC or even a PCA. We used to attend a PCUSA church and hubby was an elder there but we left and the church themselves are leaving the PCUSA very soon. The church is orthodox - the PCUSA is not.