I Know I Am Elect Because...

[Rippon]

All Scripture From The NLTse

Guilty, spiritually dead people are in need of saving. Infants don't fall into either camp.

Babies don't need to be saved?! They have personal righteousness which gives them the kind of sinless perfection with which God is pleased?!

Psalm 51:5 :For I was born a sinner -- yes,from the moment my mother conceived me.

Psalm 53:3 :But no,all have turned away;all have become corrupt.No one does good,not a single one!

Psalm 58:3 :These wicked people are born sinners;even from birth they have lied and gone their own way.

Isaiah 48:8 :Yes,I will tell you of things that are entirely new,things you never heard of before.For I know so well what traitors you are.You have been rebels from birth.

 

[swaimj]

I have to leave my computer now and will not be able to access it again until tomorrow. I've enjoyed the interaction and hope to engage in more tomorrow.

 

[Rippon]

Rippon, if people do not possess faith, why did Paul speak to the Thessalonian Christians and refer to "your faith". You are making an assertion that is not in the text.

You did not read carefully.I said Christians do have faith.

 

[Rippon]

Calvinists do possess faith.They certainly have faith;but it didn't originate with them.God gave it to them.They did not,could not, generate it themselves.

Secondly,the certainty of election needs to be one of personal examination -- "Let a man examine himself to see if he be in the faith." "Make your calling and election sure."

To be clear,all Christians, whether they are Calvinists or not have faith.But it is faith which was given to them from God.It's like our righteousness.We have an alien righteousness;a righteousness not of ourselves.

 

[webdog]

Babies don't need to be saved?! They have personal righteousness which gives them the kind of sinless perfection with which God is pleased?!

Psalm 51:5 :For I was born a sinner -- yes,from the moment my mother conceived me.

Psalm 53:3 :But no,all have turned away;all have become corrupt.No one does good,not a single one!

Psalm 58:3 :These wicked people are born sinners;even from birth they have lied and gone their own way.

Isaiah 48:8 :Yes,I will tell you of things that are entirely new,things you never heard of before.For I know so well what traitors you are.You have been rebels from birth.

Psalm 51:5 - poetic language. If you take it literally, Psalm 58:3 states we are sinners from birth. Which is it...conception, or 9 months later one is a sinner? What do you do with Psalm 22:10 which states from birth one was given to God?
Psalm 53:3 - read the past tense (have turned, have become corrupt)
Isaiah 48:8 - figurative language. If you believe it is literal, how does a baby create an idol, a carved image (v.5)?

Context always helps. Oh, and how can a baby be a traitor from birth?

 

[Amy.G]

Amy I know you are not a Calvinist;but I thought you'd be more biblical than what your post revealed.

Is a baby in need of salvation or not?The Bible does not teach your belief of the innocence of babies.Christ,the Lamb of God is the only Innocent One.

Do you believe Romans 5:12-19 or not? Don't dare reject it because it reminds you of Augustinian beliefs.

Bro. Rippon, I think all are in need of our Savior, and I believe that the blood of Christ covers infants, but I do not see anywhere in scripture that God holds one accountable for another's sin. The infant has inherited the propensity to sin, or sin nature if you like, and he has inherited the physical death that was passed from Adam to all mankind, but he is not held responsible for the sin of Adam in terms of eternal separation from God. One must commit sin and be aware of his transgression against God and it's consequences to be separated from God spiritually. Infants belong to God until they commit sin. Then they fall as did Adam. At that point they must be repent and turn to God for spiritual salvation, but physical death will still come because of Adam's sin. Romans 5:12 is speaking of physical death passed to all men.

There are no scriptures that I am aware of that speak to children regarding having faith for salvation.

That is how I see it anyway. Sorry you think I'm unbiblical. :saint:

 

[Grasshopper]

One must commit sin and be aware of his transgression against God and it's consequences to be separated from God spiritually. :saint:

Are you sure you want to stick with this?

Can one commit sin and not be separated by God?
Are all those who never heard of the God of Israel nor His statutes and commandments not separated from God? Do those who are not separated from God spiritually need a saviour?

 

[Amy.G]

Are you sure you want to stick with this?

Can one commit sin and not be separated by God?
Are all those who never heard of the God of Israel nor His statutes and commandments not separated from God? Do those who are not separated from God spiritually need a saviour?

Yes. Those people who have not heard the gospel are separated from God. According to Paul, they have no excuse.

Rom 1:20 For since the creation of the world His invisible [attributes] are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,

Rom 1:25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.

 

[Dr. Bob]

Swaimj will never be happy (he's predestined to grumble ), but here goes

God elects some of mankind to receive His grace. The rest go to hell as they deserve. Eph 1:3 - 2:9 is too long to paste here but we all know what it clearly says

Man will not, yea cannot come to God, seek, call, believe, repent, et al unless that one is changed by God and given said ability. Rom 9, John 1 and a gajillion other texts demonstrate this to the chagrin of semi-pelagians who want to do it 'on their own' or 'in cooperation' with God the cosmic vending machine.

ONLY those elected will hear/come and believe. No one else. John 6 is clear on this. EVERY one who comes and responds is elected sheep or they would not be able to come. God will not lose ONE of those sheep He elected in eternity past

And the gift of saving faith and repentance are from God to His beloved elect. The verse I gave earlier but ignored, plus Eph 2 teach this

So if John Doe truly comes in repentance and faith to the Savior, it is PROOF that he has been changed (regenerated, born again; Jo9hn 3; Titus 3). And that can only happen to God's Elect.

Therefore, John is one of the elect.

We can't see/define the cause - that was in eternity past and based solely on unmerited grace not forseen good deed (like we could ever do one!!). I can't say John Doe IS elect without a break in logic.

But we can clearly see the result and prove going backward the John is elect.

 

[skypair]

I have been given repentance and faith from God to turn from my sin and call in faith on the Lord Jesus. This is the "effect" of the working of the holy Spirit of God inwardly (the cause). Acts 20:21 It is not a capability of the unregenerate man.

So you were never "unregenerate??"

Cute. Got a chuckle out of it. Sadly, some people believe that. What a disgraceful view of God and haughty view of man.

Now, deal with biblical election not your clever nonsense. Election is not talking about YOUR choice and then God (the cosmic vending machine) spits out his choice, subservient to your will.

Wow! A condescending "chuckle" and "the cosmis vending machine" that -- what -- doesn't keep His promises???

skypair

 

[Salamander]

I have been given repentance and faith from God to turn from my sin and call in faith on the Lord Jesus. This is the "effect" of the working of the holy Spirit of God inwardly (the cause). Acts 20:21 It is not a capability of the unregenerate man.

And only God's beloved chosen ones from eternity past are given that new nature allowing such. So I rest assured of my election, proven by the work of God evident.

:laugh: Then why does God even bother with letting sin have any substanciate influence upon the elect?

Where we most assuredly differ in that one doesn't become one of His elect until he is in Him and that indicates something quite contrary to your belief that you were in him before you were in him.

So g'head, argue your calvinistic beliefs all you want. I'll just keep trusting the Lord to save all He died for, y'know, how he tasted death for EVERY man.:godisgood:

 

[Dr. Bob]

Sal - God does it to show the AWFULNESS of sin and the GLORY OF HIS GRACE.

The greater the sin, the greater God's grace. I was "in the beloved" and "forknown" of God as His Bride for His Son since before the foundation of the world. He knew Adam would sin. He knew Bob would sin.

His grace is glorious and receives the praise, not thing one that Bob would ever do.

 

[Salamander]

Cute. Got a chuckle out of it. Sadly, some people believe that. What a disgraceful view of God and haughty view of man.

Now, deal with biblical election not your clever nonsense. Election is not talking about YOUR choice and then God (the cosmic vending machine) spits out his choice, subservient to your will.

God chose to save all who will believe and all who believe and choose Him are the elect.

The sad thing for you is that Scripture shows us that many believed and even devils trembled at His word, yet they resisted the Holy Ghost and died as yet in their sins and went to hell.

Please explain how it is you were in him before you were in him?

I wasn't in him until after I got placed in him, it wasn't until this was I ever in the sight of God holy and without blame. Eph 1:4:godisgood:

 

[Salamander]

Sal - God does it to show the AWFULNESS of sin and the GLORY OF HIS GRACE.

The greater the sin, the greater God's grace. I was "in the beloved" and "forknown" of God as His Bride for His Son since before the foundation of the world. He knew Adam would sin. He knew Bob would sin.

His grace is glorious and receives the praise, not thing one that Bob would ever do.

I believe you just wrote believing right out of the Bible by that reply.:laugh:

 

[Salamander]

Also of note, my responding to His guiding would then be fruitless due to my inability to do anything concurrent with grace. That would then rip Proverbs 3:5,6 out of the Bible.

 

[skypair]

I know I'm elect because God has turned my heart to Him. Without that, I would be an enemy of God.

Yeah, yeah, yeah -- you're only elect because you BELIEVE on Christ!! Ever consider that?? If you didn't believe, you wouldn't be "elect" at all!! "Elect" speaks of how God now SANCTIFIES your life in Christ. But salvation speaks of how God gives you His righteousness because YOU trusted in Jesus/turned your heart and hopefully you gave it in repentance!!

If you hold to free will, you are concluding that all babies that die, go to hell.

No, in fact, the "shoe" is quite "on the other foot" here! Believers in election say that we are born in original sin -- we are sinners even from CONCEPTION!! We semi-Pelagians say that we are born INNOCENT and therefore JUSTIFIED according to innocence. If an infant were to die, it would be resurrected with the "just" into Christ's MK and have the CHOOSE then whether to "take God up on His promises" or not.

But what is left to go to? What you go to is God acting on their behalf. Which is God’s way of salvation. He acts on our behalf. Did God ask me if it was ok that Jesus died for me? Did God ask me if it was ok that he worked many events in my life so I could hear the Gospel and respond? Of course not. He always acts first.

Nice try! I hope Sarah Palin is as "fast on her feet" as you are! :laugh:

Sovereign grace is wonderful, in that, there is the providence and plan of God to save babies. Does he save all babies? I don’t know. Does he decide to save some babies? No idea.

Sadly, the "doctrines of grace" don't care about babies or good, valid theology that might apply, eh?

John the Baptist leaped for joy in the womb when pregnant Mary came by him in the womb(Luke 1:41-44).

Yeah, he was saved in the womb, right? Gimme a break!

I do know also, that our God is a good and gracious God. And if he wants to show up in the womb and have a baby believe, our God is fully capable. (John 1:12-13)

A fetus doesn't have the CAPACITY that you insist a mature adult must have to be saved. How in the world could this "fantasy" possibly find it's way into serious theolgoy???

You might think, “But babies don’t have the mental faculties and capabilities to respond to the Gospel.” I would contend, that you didn’t either. We are dead in our sins (Ephesians 2:1-3). Our hearts our hard and consider the things of God to be foolish and we cannot understand them apart from God acting. Acts 16 is clear that God enables us to understand what is being spoken. (Acts 16:14)

OK, so basically you are contending that fetus John the Baptist was like Jesus, born again in the womb -- "reborn" or born of the Spirit there. Perhaps even a "Savior??"

C'mon, ann. Adults DO have the "faculties and capabilities" to respond to the gospel that you appear to be giving to fetuses!. Your theology has taken you down a "blind alley" and you need to turn around and reassess. Like the pick-pocket protagonist in at the end of "Oliver," you need to "review your situation." (love that movie!) :laugh:

skypair

 

[skypair]

This is no different than the Augustinian belief of original sin, in which is the teaching that all are born under the curse of sin because we have inherited Adam's punishment of death. This is why Catholics baptize infants.

Exactly, Amy!!! Reformers, too, at least originally!

skypair

 

[skypair]

Is a baby in need of salvation or not? The Bible does not teach your belief of the innocence of babies.

So David was going to meet his deceased infant son in hell??? Get a grip, rip! Ezek 18:20 should be your answer but since you have been "totally hoodwinked" by Calvinism, it is unlikely that you will comprehend what it says!

skypair

 

[skypair]

Calvinists do possess faith. They certainly have faith; but it didn't originate with them. God gave it to them. They did not,could not, generate it themselves.

We can certainly say that they have faith in Calvinism! And it clearly originated with Calvinism -- not with anything they could get from scripture. I would question whether God gave it to them since it so clearly denies that they had to "receive"/accept it in some way.

skypair

 

[skypair]

Can one commit sin and not be separated by God?
Are all those who never heard of the God of Israel nor His statutes and commandments not separated from God? Do those who are not separated from God spiritually need a saviour?

You pose an excellent question. There is no sin where there is no law. I think we can all agree that that concept is treated by Paul in scripture.

They are NOT all separated from God. There is something called the "everlasting gospel." It says that to be saved (justified beyond the "age of accountability), we must acknowledge God, glorify Him, and be thankful. (Rev 14:6-7 // Rom 1:19-21)

This was the basic "gospel" before the law. Again, can a fetus know this? No. But are they guilty? No. But who, seeing the "Godhead revealed," is not responsible to acknowledge, glorify, and give thanks to God? NNE!

skypair