I Know I Am Elect Because...

[Rippon]

We can certainly say that they have faith in Calvinism! And it clearly originated with Calvinism -- not with anything they could get from scripture. I would question whether God gave it to them since it so clearly denies that they had to "receive"/accept it in some way.

skypair

The Bible clearly teaches that God gives saving faith to those of His choosing.It did not originate with the teachings of John Calvin.

The Scripture itself teaches that God Gives saving faith.However,demonstrate that you know more than what you are talking about.In Church History please list some individuals (aside from Agustine)who also taught that saving faith is given by God to those of His choosing.

 

[skypair]

Swaimj will never be happy (he's predestined to grumble ), but here goes

God elects some of mankind to receive His grace.

Bob, stop right there. God FOREKNOWS that some will not receive His grace. He does NOT PREDESTINE it upon some but not all.

You have the concepts of "foreknow" and "predestine" terribly misconstrued! Obviously, God foreknowing means it will happen. But that in no way means the salvation is "fate" or "deterministic." Foreknow incorporates the concept that God can discern those who will, in the course of time, will BELIEVE. If God is omniscient, are you still maintaining that He can't foreknow/foresee this? Are you saying that God CAN'T forsee faith/belief?? That He can't "elect" according to that??

Again, it all depends on what you believe is the basis of salvation. You appear to believe it is "election." I believe it is belief and, on account of repentance, God given faith in Christ. To you, everything is a gift -- nothing is required of man, right? God could save/elect a fetus and let another fetus go to hell, right? IOW, belief has absolutely NO effect on one's destiny.

So if John Doe truly comes in repentance and faith to the Savior, it is PROOF that he has been changed (regenerated, born again; Jo9hn 3; Titus 3). And that can only happen to God's Elect.

You are making the outward appearances to be the proof of you "theory." Suppose I say that a person in your church displays all the "proof" of being saved but wasn't. They repented and believed. Yet God might call him/her a "hypocrite" because there was never a decision -- a change of heart. Do you have the mind of God??

But we can clearly see the result and prove going backward the John is elect.

This is the hope of those who live in the MK -- until they show their "true colors" and side with Satan!!! The Pharisees tried to "prove" their "election" the same way you are!

skypair

 

[Dr. Bob]

Sky - don't confuse "for-know" with "for-see". Two entirely different words and concepts.

God for-knows - knows us (intimate loving relationship) from eternity past, before the world was created. Has nothing to do with God looking down thru time and seeing me do something good (as if I could)

God for-sees - knows we are wicked, depraved hell-deserving sinners that in no way can repent or believe or do ANY good thing

But because God for-knows me as His Child, by HIS choice, HIS action 100%, I was redeemed.

Don't worry; confusing these two terms is a common error of those who can't grasp unconditional election (NOT of works), and repeated often.

 

[skypair]

Sky - don't confuse "for-know" with "for-see". Two entirely different words and concepts.

Yeah -- I've heard y'all call it "fore-yada!" :laugh:

This is one of the "paralaxes" y'all look at scripture through. If it was simple as "foresee," then everyone would understand the theology of salvation, right? But instead, God does not "foresee our belief" but rather "foreordains our regeneration" unto salvation.

Don't worry; confusing these two terms is a common error of those who can't grasp unconditional election (NOT of works), and repeated often.

Is it really "unconditional" though, Bob? Do you not even have to believe in order to be "chosen?"

Ya know, this whole thing of "unconditional election" and "irresistible grace" has the distinct "feel" of "date rape." At what point does one actually have to consent to this "yada?" Cause if you're saying that grace is irresistible, then it's clear to me that the "yada" comes before the consent, alright, but I very much doubt that that is how God does it.

skypair

 

[skypair]

The Bible clearly teaches that God gives saving faith to those of His choosing.

Maybe you should revisit the meaning of "election," bro. In no case does God choose a person or a people to be saved. He chooses them for His purposes.

The Scripture itself teaches that God Gives saving faith.

Agreed. Without exception, God gives faith to those who obey His word. Go to Heb 11 if you need to refresh your memory on that.

However,demonstrate that you know more than what you are talking about. In Church History please list some individuals (aside from Agustine) who also taught that saving faith is given by God to those of His choosing.

You're asking my to point out MEN who taught an unscriptural tenet of "Christianity?" First off, God chose EVERYONE who was ever born to salvation. That's why He "permitted" them to be born! He has nothing but good planned for each and all of us! And there is a "fork" in everyone's "road." One leads to "life" -- one leads to "death." God put the "life" path and Adam put the "death" path and we each have to choose for ourselves. "I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life,..." Deut 30:19 It's a simple gospel and even includes God's promise to those who choose life or death. But it is our decision. "Life" and "blessing and cursing" are NOT given us and then we choose. That is not what the simple gospel says at all, now is it?

skypair

 

[swaimj]

Swaimj will never be happy (he's predestined to grumble )

Ah, Dr. Bob, I love ya! Many a thruth is spoken in jest and in your humurous aside you reveal the flaw in your theology.

If you meet a man who grumbles, it is not because he is predestined to do so. This is fatalism. Men grumble because, in their hearts, they think they deserve more from God than they are getting. The gospel has the power to reveal a person's sin to them so that they repent, believe, and are changed. With God all things are possible! This allows us, as ministers of the gospel to proclaim hope and salvation that is available to all through the all-sufficient sacrifice of Christ on the cross for in His death he satisfied infinitely the wrath of God against all sin. You do not believe that Christ's death is all-sufficient. You think it is limited. So when you meet a grumbler, rather than offer hope, you condemn him as predestined to remain in his sin. How tragic that you consider yourself to be redeemed yet you do not think God is gracious enough to redeem another. This is calvinism gone too far!

 

[Thinkingstuff]

I saw my name written in the book of life. You? :laugh:

 

[donnA]

I have been given repentance and faith from God to turn from my sin and call in faith on the Lord Jesus. This is the "effect" of the working of the holy Spirit of God inwardly (the cause). Acts 20:21 It is not a capability of the unregenerate man.

And only God's beloved chosen ones from eternity past are given that new nature allowing such. So I rest assured of my election, proven by the work of God evident.

Dr. Bob says it better then I would have.
I know I am elect because God has saved me and forgiven my sin.

The Bible clearly teaches that God gives saving faith to those of His choosing.It did not originate with the teachings of John Calvin.

This teaching of the doctrine of grace goes back much further then John Calvin.

 

[webdog]

God for-knows - knows us (intimate loving relationship) from eternity past, before the world was created. Has nothing to do with God looking down thru time and seeing me do something good (as if I could)

I believe "eternity past" is an oxymoron, and a classic calvinist flaw. God knows, period. To MAN God foreknows, and this is the language spoken by an infinite God to finite man because we ARE bound by time, but God is not bound by any measurement, which is simply what time is. God knows from eternity past, present and future...all at once. This puts God's "election" not in the past, as calvinism teaches, but at any point within time and outside of it God so chooses. For man it's a mystery knowing the future, but it is not a mystery knowing the past. This is why "foreknow" is so powerful to man, it shows a trait that only an omniscient God can have...knowing something in the future yet to happen. It's clear from Scripture Christ is referred to as God's Elect, and those in Christ are just that.

 

[tinytim]

I know I am elect because... I chose to serve God...

 

[Thinkingstuff]

I know I am elect because... I chose to serve God...

Is it because you choose or because you serve? Which one? It is a crucial point with baptist.

 

[MB]

I know I'm elect because of the events that happened in my life that brought me to Christ. He chose to convince me of Him Self and did. He chose to give me the faith I needed by the hearing of His gospel. He chose to convict me of my sins. In order that I would repent. Yes I surrendered to His righteousness( Rom 10:1-4) My surrender being the results of His work, not my own.
MB

 

[reformedbeliever]

I believe "eternity past" is an oxymoron, and a classic calvinist flaw. God knows, period. To MAN God foreknows, and this is the language spoken by an infinite God to finite man because we ARE bound by time, but God is not bound by any measurement, which is simply what time is. God knows from eternity past, present and future...all at once. This puts God's "election" not in the past, as calvinism teaches, but at any point within time and outside of it God so chooses. For man it's a mystery knowing the future, but it is not a mystery knowing the past. This is why "foreknow" is so powerful to man, it shows a trait that only an omniscient God can have...knowing something in the future yet to happen. It's clear from Scripture Christ is referred to as God's Elect, and those in Christ are just that.

I agree Web. Long time no see.
If God perfectly knows, and He does, then those that He perfectly knows will never receive Him, will never receive Him. They can't. If they could do something that God perfectly knows that they will not do, then God does not know. Whats the difference?
God knows His own. He is the "I Am." Time does not matter to Him. You are either His or you are not. Your choice in the matter never changed a thing. You are either His in all eternity or you are not.
Nice seeing you Web. Nice pic by the way. You are a blessed man.

 

[Dr. Bob]

Is it really "unconditional" though, Bob? Do you not even have to believe in order to be "chosen?"

And there is the semi-pelagian "I must DO something" to be elect.

Salvation is 100% of grace. Period. And I am thankful because, sky, without it FIRST (and change in my heart) I could not believe, repent, call on God, or even seek or want salvation. It would be impossible.

As I've contended all along, the issue of salvation revolves NOT around election, atonement, regeneration, perserverance, but around DEPRAVITY.

I take Rom 3:10-23 (quoting the OT that taught the same) as fact. I am totally incapable of "Believing" in order to be chosen, etc.

BTW, if MY action (which is impossible, but hypothetically) comes first and THEN I am chosen by God, who is in control? Who is sovereign? Who is the real "god" in the equation?

 

[skypair]

And there is the semi-pelagian "I must DO something" to be elect.

I got to thinking about it later but not only are you talking about salvation that sounds like "date rape" but it makes the Holy Spirit out to be a cosmic "roofie!" You couldn't resist!! Again I ask -- at what point do you get to "consent" to this "date???" Or do you??

Salvation is 100% of grace. Period.

Where does "human responsibilty" come in, Bob? Isn't what you are proposing exactly where human "license" comes from, Rom 6:1??

And I am thankful because, sky, without it FIRST (and change in my heart)...

Bob, a "change of heart" is merely a "change of mind." You rethink every day every fact of your existence. The thing that has to change is your soul/conscience but anything taken into the soul must first pass through the "mind, emotions, will gate" of your "heart"/spirit.

And believ one more thing I am telling you -- you may change your heart/mind and, if that is the end of it, not change your soul. In that state, you might just decide to go live a better life "inspired" by the Bible.

Finally, you give too much credit to depravity. Adam knew evil AND GOOD. Don't ever get the idea that man cannot recognize good and be drawn to it else you will think you are "elect." :laugh:

BTW, if MY action (which is impossible, but hypothetically) comes first and THEN I am chosen by God, who is in control? Who is sovereign? Who is the real "god" in the equation?

Under the "heading" of total sovereignty, you do believe in God's "permissive will," don't you? It is His permissive will that I, as a "free moral agent" of His creation, make most every choice in my life myself. Think about it.

skypair

 

[reformedbeliever]

Under the "heading" of total sovereignty, you do believe in God's "permissive will," don't you? It is His permissive will that I, as a "free moral agent" of His creation, make most every choice in my life myself. Think about it.

Can you choose to not have cancer? Think about it.

 

[Dr. Bob]

Bob, a "change of heart" is merely a "change of mind."

Wow, you are more wrong than you realize. That's what you get for doing your own thinking!

I can change my mind a gajillion times a day. It takes DIVINE INTERVENTION to change a heart of stone into a living heart. Marvel not (in your thinking, action) that you must be born again (by an outside source, passive).

Changing my heart was 100% the work of God, not Bob.

And btw, I don't think I could give "Too much credit to depravity". God said I am dead in my sin (Eph 2), that I cannot seek, come, call, want, wish or do one good thing in His sight (Rom 3, Is 64), that it is NOT my thinking or willing (John 1). It is the MIRACLE of the new birth or regeneration (John 3, Tit 3)

The sad part of the pelagian (and semi-pelagian) heresy is that they simply reject depravity and bondage of the will. They want to "cooperate" with God.

AFTER I was born again 100% of His work in me, man THEN I cooperated. I cried, repented, believed, called etc. But before that? Dead.

And not much a spiritually dead corpse does other than lay there and rot.

 

[Marcia]

I know I'm elect because otherwise I'd still be an astrologer and in the New Age, probably deeper than ever. It's very clear cut to me. :godisgood:

 

[Salamander]

I know I'm elect because God says I am according to His Spirit which bears witness with my spirit. But before I became one of His elect , my spirit was contrary to the Spirit and the Spirit's beckoning was for me to become one of His elect.

 

[skypair]

Wow, you are more wrong than you realize. That's what you get for doing your own thinking!

So I should depend on who -- Calvin -- to do my thinking?? :laugh:

I can change my mind a gajillion times a day.

I know you can -- and do! And even when you were unregenerate (if you ever were ) you changed your mind/heart choosing between good and evil constantly!

It takes DIVINE INTERVENTION to change a heart of stone into a living heart.

Let's update your paradigm. The "heart of stone" is the one that tries to live by the law "engraved in stone." That's the most you can make out of that expression. The "heart of flesh" is the one that acknowledges the Spirit behind the law, behind creation -- the Spirit that speaks of salvation in Christ, not in works.

Marvel not (in your thinking, action) that you must be born again (by an outside source, passive).

I know y'all insist that, just as you were born once without "doing" anything, so you are "born again" without doing anything. Bogus! John 3:14-16 is Jesus explanation of being born again -- "And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life." God didn't GIVE eternal life or any of the other "gifts" you so cherish -- indwelling Spirit, faith, repentance, etc. until you believed on Christ. It is the "belief gate" in your spirit, your changed heart, that allows salvation, the rebirth of the soul, and indwelling of the SOUL by God's Spirit.

Changing my heart was 100% the work of God, not Bob.

Are you saying that one moment you were completely ignorant of God and Christ and wallowing in your sin and loving it and, without hearing or having anything to think about, you suddenly understood and accepted everything you heard about God and Christ?? There was absolutely no convicting Influence -- no one had to convince you of your sin-drenched spirit and sin-dead soul because, for you at that miraculous, God-sovereign moment, that was no longer your case? And then you were not moved to do anything by this sudden, inexplicable change of heart/mind??

What about the "everlasting gospel," Bob? The gospel that overarcs all of mankind and all dispensations and says that we MUST "fear God and give Him the glory" to be saved? Rom 1:21, Rev 14:7 Do you nulify that as well with your saved-then-believe theology??

God said I am dead in my sin (Eph 2), that I cannot seek, come, call, want, wish or do one good thing in His sight (Rom 3, Is 64), that it is NOT my thinking or willing (John 1). It is the MIRACLE of the new birth or regeneration (John 3, Tit 3)

Bob, it was your SOUL that died and needed to be reborn. Your spirit was very much alive and capable of choosing "good and evil" as Adam was post-fall. You have just convinced yourself that your mind has been changed but that you couldn't and still can't "do" anything about it.

AFTER I was born again 100% of His work in me, man THEN I cooperated. I cried, repented, believed, called etc. But before that? Dead.

Let me "recharacterize" what I know you must have done in a way that comports with scripture, not Calvinism (though now you deny it). You sinned -- your SOUL was dead -- your spirit very much alive. You weren't "regenerated" out-of-the-blue, as you suggest. You heard a sermon or two or more and you came under conviction in your spirit/mind AND SOUL/conscience! You suddenly "saw the light" and changed your mind regarding where your salvation depends. Salvation was not "of you" but "of God/Christ," right?

That's good so far as it goes. But ... did you "apply" the salvation of Christ to your SOUL?? Did you say "Lord, remember me when You come into your kingdom?" Did you say "What must we do?" May I say this, Bob --- belief is when you agree with God in your mind; faith is when you agree in your soul? Perhaps that is the thought I have been trying to distinguish whenever I get into these conversations. Belief is a spirit thing -- faith is a soul thing.

The tranaction goes like this: Pray asking for salvation in Christ. You trusted in God's promises and God put faith into your soul and began the process of "sanctifying" you soul, spirit, and body!

I know you believe your salvation is glorious and, no doubt, it is because it is that same one I have described here in MY own words. I just believe that mine is nearer the truth and to scripture. But you, being a leader of men, need to understand what's happening better than you do.

And not much a spiritually dead corpse does other than lay there and rot.

Yeah -- so you're suddenly Lazarus in his grave (though you haven't died yet), yada, yada, yada. Do you not see that there is NO correspondence between Lazarus and anyone this side of the grave???? Are you purposely trying to deceive us?

skypair