I Know I Am Elect Because...

[skypair]

Sorry -- I did a Dubya! :laugh:

sky

 

[MB]

And there is the semi-pelagian "I must DO something" to be elect.

Salvation is 100% of grace. Period. And I am thankful because, sky, without it FIRST (and change in my heart) I could not believe, repent, call on God, or even seek or want salvation. It would be impossible.

As I've contended all along, the issue of salvation revolves NOT around election, atonement, regeneration, perserverance, but around DEPRAVITY.

I take Rom 3:10-23 (quoting the OT that taught the same) as fact. I am totally incapable of "Believing" in order to be chosen, etc.

BTW, if MY action (which is impossible, but hypothetically) comes first and THEN I am chosen by God, who is in control? Who is sovereign? Who is the real "god" in the equation?

Im sorry but Rom 3:10-23 never says this is total depravity. Nor does it say that man is somehow disabled from hearing or understanding the gospel. Even in sin man can hear the gospel with out the Calvinist view of election and most of all without regeneration. The condition of a mans heart does not prevent the man from hearing or understanding, and the Bible never says it does. This is just Calvinistic ideas and not the gospel. Men can hear and understand that's why we are told to preach it to every creature.
Act 28:28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.
MB

 

[Dr. Bob]

For those unable to understand what GOD said where describing you and me or balk at the thought of being totally depraved and completely incapable of a single good thing in the sight of God:

"There is no one righteous, not a single one.
There is no one who understands, no one who seeks God.
They have all have turned away, they have together become worthless.
There is no one who does anything good, not a single one."

"I will have mercy on those whom I choose to have mercy, and I will have compassion on those whom I choose to have compassion."
Therefore, it does not depend on man's will or effort, but solely on God's mercy.

He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him. But as many as received Him, to them He gave authority to be called 'children of God' - to those who believe in His name, who were born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

I can scream and yell in the ear of a dead man and it will not rise up, repent and believe. And I can scream at a man dead in trespasses and sin (hey, GOD used the analogy so I'm safe to use it) and he will not rise up in repentance and faith. He must be BORN AGAIN before he can do anything good.

Did you read the verses??
Man cannot do a right thing
Man cannot will
Man cannot seek
Man cannot understand
Man cannot do a good thing

Before he is CAPABLE of ANY response spiritually pleasing to God, he must be regenerated, born again.

This is Christianity 101.

 

[canadyjd]

Ya know, this whole thing of "unconditional election" and "irresistible grace" has the distinct "feel" of "date rape." At what point does one actually have to consent to this "yada?" Cause if you're saying that grace is irresistible, then it's clear to me that the "yada" comes before the consent, alright, but I very much doubt that that is how God does it.

Comparing the work of Holy Spirit and the Grace of God in salvation to "date rape" is the most disgusting thing I have every seen you post.

SHAME! SHAME! SHAME!

peaceraying:

 

[MB]

For those unable to understand what GOD said where describing you and me or balk at the thought of being totally depraved and completely incapable of a single good thing in the sight of God:

"There is no one righteous, not a single one.
There is no one who understands, no one who seeks God.
They have all have turned away, they have together become worthless.
There is no one who does anything good, not a single one."

"I will have mercy on those whom I choose to have mercy, and I will have compassion on those whom I choose to have compassion."
Therefore, it does not depend on man's will or effort, but solely on God's mercy.

He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him. But as many as received Him, to them He gave authority to be called 'children of God' - to those who believe in His name, who were born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

I can scream and yell in the ear of a dead man and it will not rise up, repent and believe. And I can scream at a man dead in trespasses and sin (hey, GOD used the analogy so I'm safe to use it) and he will not rise up in repentance and faith. He must be BORN AGAIN before he can do anything good.

Did you read the verses??
Man cannot do a right thing
Man cannot will
Man cannot seek
Man cannot understand
Man cannot do a good thing

Before he is CAPABLE of ANY response spiritually pleasing to God, he must be regenerated, born again.

This is Christianity 101.

Yes I read them and not one, I repeat not one, of them say man is disabled from a response to the gospel. That's why it isn't Biblical. It's pure Calvinism but, it still isn't Biblical.
Just because a Calvinist get's up and makes this claim doesn't make it so. Only the word of God has Authority to dictate doctrine, not Calvinism or any other self appointed doctrine.
MB

 

[Rippon]

Comparing the work of Holy Spirit and the Grace of God in salvation to "date rape" is the most disgusting thing I have every seen you post.

SHAME! SHAME! SHAME!

peaceraying:

He has done it before.But he's tring for new lows apparently.That envelope is being pushed really hard.

 

[Rippon]

All Scripture From The NIV

Yes I read them and not one, I repeat not one, of them say man is disabled from a response to the gospel. That's why it isn't Biblical. It's pure Calvinism but, it still isn't Biblical.
Just because a Calvinist get's up and makes this claim doesn't make it so. Only the word of God has Authority to dictate doctrine, not Calvinism or any other self appointed doctrine.
MB

Dr.Bob's post made it rather plain.The Bible doesn't teach partial depravity or semi-ability of the natural person.

The fool [which is everyone outside of Christ] says in his heart,"There is no God." They are corrupt,their deeds are vile;there is no one who does good.The Lord looks down from heaven on the sons of men to see if there are any who understand,any who seek God.All have turned aside,they have together become corrupt;there is no one who does good,not even one.(Psalm 14:1-3)

Ecc. 7:20 : There is not a righteous man on earth who does what is right and never sins.

Ecc. 9:3 : The hearts of men ...are full of evil and there is madness in their hearts while they live.

Eph. 2:1-3 : As for you,you were dead in your trespasses and sins,in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air,of the spirit which is now at work in those who are disobedient.All of us also ived among them at one time,gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts.Like the rest,we were by nature children of wrath.

Ro. 8:7-8 : The sinful mind ... does not submit to God's law,nor can it do so.Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God.

 

[Jim1999]

Let me give a little testimony. I grew up in the Church of England, attended church (private) boys school. I prolly had as much scripture memorized as many graduating from Bible college. Yet, it was not until I realized Jesus as my persnal Saviour that I was born again.

I never rejected Christ or Christian truth, but still the Holy Spirit had to bring me to a place of realization. Realization is not a term commonly used outside Anglicanism, but I think it best describes what happens when one is saved.

How do I know that I am elect of God? I will use that simple Bible song we all sung as kiddies: "Jesus loves me this I know because the Bible tells me so...." Confirmed in my inner soul with a quiet confidence of God's presence in my life. Nothing cataclysic, just a quiet night in the solitude of my residence with 30 other laddies sleeping peacefully. Jesus found me, and I responded.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[skypair]

Comparing the work of Holy Spirit and the Grace of God in salvation to "date rape" is the most disgusting thing I have every seen you post.

I apologize if the imagery overwhelms the substance, but I think you should "wade through" to the comparison. Apparently, God "fore-yada's" us, calls us out for a date, and irresistibly ("cosmic roofie"), unconditionally (without our consent) "impregnates" us with the "seed" of His Spirit whereby we are saved and "do the honorable thing."

(**Moderator edit------paragraph was not well taken as posted)

Please let me know at what point you feel the parallel fails. And would you also admit that the better parallel for what happens in bublical salvation is courtship, marriage proposal, acceptance, earnest of inheritance engagement ring, wedding in heaven, consummation, live together. (See these things can be spoken of decorously if the whole thing is not made to be a perversion of the real truth.).

skypair

 

[skypair]

"There is no one righteous, not a single one.
There is no one who understands, no one who seeks God.
They have all have turned away, they have together become worthless.
There is no one who does anything good, not a single one."

Fortunately, rip brings us back to the CONTEXT of those remarks --- "the FOOLS," the ATHEISTS. There are none of them righteous, blah, blah, blah.

"I will have mercy on those whom I choose to have mercy, and I will have compassion on those whom I choose to have compassion."

Doesn't even speak of depravity nor of how God chooses whom He does to have mercy on (which is one of the primary omissions of Calvinism, too).

Therefore, it does not depend on man's will or effort, but solely on God's mercy.

Which again omits why God shows mercy on whom He does.

He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him. But as many as received Him, to them He gave authority to be called 'children of God' - to those who believe in His name, who were born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

We agree that we must "believe on His name" in order to be "born ... of God." But the verse doesn't say that we are "born of God," therefore we "believe on His name." Specifically, we give mental assent to the truth in our spirits -- we APPLY it to our lives -- God gives us His Spirit that quickens our dead SOUL to rebirth and faith.

And I think you missed or are avoiding or perhaps studying my assertion that belief is in the spirit of man, the mind, but faith is in the soul of man, the conscience as will be the Spirit that guides our lives when we trust in Christ's death and life, Rom 5:10. (I have more proof if you are actually studying my paradigm and not just dismissing it.) I believe that if we could agree on this, we might actually be in "unity of the knowledge and faith of Christ," bro.

I can scream and yell in the ear of a dead man and it will not rise up, repent and believe. And I can scream at a man dead in trespasses and sin (hey, GOD used the analogy so I'm safe to use it) and he will not rise up in repentance and faith. He must be BORN AGAIN before he can do anything good.

Correction: His SOUL must be born again because that is all that died immediately on account of sin, Ezek 18:20.

Before he is CAPABLE of ANY response spiritually pleasing to God, he must be regenerated, born again.

This is Christianity 101.

Sorry, you flunk. :laugh: The truth is there is one thing that he can respond to while still unregenerate --- otherwise there would be no point in preaching it. It's called "the gospel." It is the manner by which God "calls" those whom He has "predestinated." They are "justified" (made right with God) AFTER they are "called" and believe ("belief" being the basis on which Rom 8:29 says He "foreknew" them), Rom 8:30.

I'm sorry but you will have to repeat Christianity 101, Bob.

skypair

 

[canadyjd]

I apologize if the imagery overwhelms the substance, but I think you should "wade through" to the comparison. Apparently, God "fore-yada's" us, calls us out for a date, and irresistibly ("cosmic roofie"), unconditionally (without our consent) "impregnates" us with the "seed" of His Spirit whereby we are saved and "do the honorable thing."

(Moderator edit: Paragraph is not well taken as posted)

Please let me know at what point you feel the parallel fails.

I am stunned that I have to spell it out for you!

You have compared Almighty God to a rapist. Your analogy fails at every point.

You have compared God's motivation in election and the exercise of His Grace in regeneration to a pervert's motivation in exercising power over a weaker person for s**ual gratification. The motivation of God is our salvation, not a perverted, selfish desire to please Himself. Your analogy fails and is disgusting.

You have compared the giving of indwelling Holy Spirit to the forced impregnation of a woman by a raptist. The giving of Holy Spirit is for our benefit, not the unintended consequence of a pervert seeking to gratify Himself. Your analogy fails and is disgusting.

Your have compared our response to the work of Holy Spirit (faith in Jesus Christ) to the forced marriage of a pregnant girl to her rapist (which you believe is "honorable":that is also disgusting and revealing of your mindset). Your analogy fails and is disgusting.

Your inability to engage scripture on the issues of the doctrines of Grace have led you to make the most disgusting statements I have ever seen you make on the BB.

Again I say, Shame! Shame! Shame!

raying:

 

[Rippon]

Cosmic Roofie? What In the World?

I apologize if the imagery overwhelms the substance, but I think you should "wade through" to the comparison. Apparently, God "fore-yada's" us, calls us out for a date, and irresistibly ("cosmic roofie"), unconditionally (without our consent) "impregnates" us with the "seed" of His Spirit whereby we are saved and "do the honorable thing."

If it is disgusting, you might consider at what point the parallels are valid and decide whether the "doctrines of grace" are disgusting too.And you might also consider whether "date rape" and "regeneration" are really love or just "manipulation" of someone who wouldn't love the "rapist" otherwise.

Please let me know at what point you feel the parallel fails. And would you also admit that the better parallel for what happens in bublical salvation is courtship, marriage proposal, acceptance, earnest of inheritance engagement ring, wedding in heaven, consummation, live together. (See these things can be spoken of decorously if the whole thing is not made to be a perversion of the real truth.).

skypair

Utterly and disgracefully pathetic post.

 

[Rippon]

Fortunately, rip brings us back to the CONTEXT of those remarks --- "the FOOLS," the ATHEISTS. There are none of them righteous, blah, blah, blah.
[/quote]

In Psalm 14:1 The "fool",nabal,means the spiritually deficient person,which is descriptive of every person outside of Christ.[I'm paraphrasing Robert Reymond's words from his Systematic,page 450]
___________________________________________________________


Which again omits why God shows mercy on whom He does.
[/quote]

God doesn't owe you or anyone else a reason for any action of His beyond the fact that it's due to His good pleasure.
_________________________________________________________

(I have more proof if you are actually studying my paradigm and not just dismissing it.)

[/quote]

Your "paradigms" are wierd,mystifying,and disreputable.

 

[AresMan]

I know y'all insist that, just as you were born once without "doing" anything, so you are "born again" without doing anything. Bogus! John 3:14-16 is Jesus explanation of being born again -- "And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life." God didn't GIVE eternal life or any of the other "gifts" you so cherish -- indwelling Spirit, faith, repentance, etc. until you believed on Christ. It is the "belief gate" in your spirit, your changed heart, that allows salvation, the rebirth of the soul, and indwelling of the SOUL by God's Spirit.

It's true that no one is "saved" until he believes the Gospel. That does not in any way prove that the faith itself comes from man independent in some fashion but joined to the work of the Holy Spirit. Faith in Christ and the Gospel is a characteristic of one who is born again and quickened, just as breathing is characteristic of one who is born and alive physically. The effectual work of the Holy Spirit is the cause of one being born again (regenerated) whereby one believes the Gospel and is a child of God.

Are you saying that one moment you were completely ignorant of God and Christ and wallowing in your sin and loving it and, without hearing or having anything to think about, you suddenly understood and accepted everything you heard about God and Christ?? There was absolutely no convicting Influence -- no one had to convince you of your sin-drenched spirit and sin-dead soul because, for you at that miraculous, God-sovereign moment, that was no longer your case? And then you were not moved to do anything by this sudden, inexplicable change of heart/mind??

These questions and assumptions continue to demonstrate that you still do not understand the DoG position. The DoG position does not teach that God elects independently of His Word--Gospel preaching of other ways by which one is exposed to His Word--(Rom 10:13-17). The DoG position does not teach that God elects and saves apart from conviction, faith, and repentance. The only difference is that the DoG position teaches that all of this comes ultimately from an effectual work of God with the full intent to save someone whom God elected. The conviction comes from the Holy Spirit's power to illuminate a soul to the truth. Faith comes from the work of the Holy Spirit in regeneration. All positive inner and outer acts of man toward the Gospel are a result of God's effectual work to accomplish His purpose. There is no faith/election dichotomy. I repeat: there is no faith/election dichotomy.

What about the "everlasting gospel," Bob? The gospel that overarcs all of mankind and all dispensations and says that we MUST "fear God and give Him the glory" to be saved? Rom 1:21, Rev 14:7 Do you nulify that as well with your saved-then-believe theology??

Yet, no one will do this until God reveals Himself to him through His Word and Gospel through the power of the Holy Spirit to illuminate one's heart to the truth of the Gospel that he is a sinner and needs a Saviour. If one is actually convinced of the truth through the effectual inner work of the Holy Spirit, one will be definition, "respond" to the Gospel.

Bob, it was your SOUL that died and needed to be reborn. Your spirit was very much alive and capable of choosing "good and evil" as Adam was post-fall. You have just convinced yourself that your mind has been changed but that you couldn't and still can't "do" anything about it.

Where do you get this soul/spirit dichotomy from the Bible such that one's soul is depraved but one's spirit is not?

Let me "recharacterize" what I know you must have done in a way that comports with scripture, not Calvinism (though now you deny it). You sinned -- your SOUL was dead -- your spirit very much alive. You weren't "regenerated" out-of-the-blue, as you suggest. You heard a sermon or two or more and you came under conviction in your spirit/mind AND SOUL/conscience! You suddenly "saw the light" and changed your mind regarding where your salvation depends. Salvation was not "of you" but "of God/Christ," right?

He, I, and you changed [our] mind as the effectual result of the Holy Spirit's sovereign work in overwhelming our depraved hearts of stone with the truth of the Gospel, quickening our spirits that were dead in sin.

That's good so far as it goes. But ... did you "apply" the salvation of Christ to your SOUL?? Did you say "Lord, remember me when You come into your kingdom?" Did you say "What must we do?" May I say this, Bob --- belief is when you agree with God in your mind; faith is when you agree in your soul? Perhaps that is the thought I have been trying to distinguish whenever I get into these conversations. Belief is a spirit thing -- faith is a soul thing.

Where do you get this soul/spirit dichotomy from Scripture regarding salvation?
Where do you get this belief/faith dichotomy from Scripture as well? Faith and belief come from the same Greek word--pistis. English will translate it with two different words: generally, faith is the noun and believe is the verb, because it is awkward to say that someone "faiths" something. Believe implies an agent, and belief is the nominalization of the verb.

The tranaction goes like this: Pray asking for salvation in Christ. You trusted in God's promises and God put faith into your soul and began the process of "sanctifying" you soul, spirit, and body!

Now you create another faith/trust dichotomy that I do not see anywhere in Scripture. Trust and faith are the same thing as well. You are trying to say that "trust" comes from man to get "faith" that comes from God. It's the same thing and it comes from God. The same faith that you argue comes from God sovereignly in sanctification is the same faith that comes from God sovereignly in justification. Justification is just the point in time in your life where this faith began.

I know you believe your salvation is glorious and, no doubt, it is because it is that same one I have described here in MY own words. I just believe that mine is nearer the truth and to scripture. But you, being a leader of men, need to understand what's happening better than you do.

Because you believe that your inward and outward actions in your justification are your arguable independent but joined contribution to an ineffectual and insufficient work of God to guarantee success in His sovereign effort. Somehow, your salvific faith comes from you independently, but adjoined as a contribution to God's work that as a combined whole, results in salvation, rather than that your salvific faith came as a result of God's effectual work in your mind, soul, and spirit through the Holy Spirit.

Yeah -- so you're suddenly Lazarus in his grave (though you haven't died yet), yada, yada, yada. Do you not see that there is NO correspondence between Lazarus and anyone this side of the grave???? Are you purposely trying to deceive us?

He's not talking about physical death; he's talking about spiritual death (Eph 2:1-10; Col 2:13).

 

[skypair]

You have compared God's motivation in election and the exercise of His Grace in regeneration to a pervert's motivation in exercising power over a weaker person for s**ual gratification.

Only by "advancing" y'all's use of the word "yada" in "forelove" -- and one-sided love at that! So the "victim" dates someone who has already decided he is in love with her, right? She's just thinking she'll get to know him and, before she knows it, she inexplicably can't resist.

The motivation of God is our salvation, not a perverted, selfish desire to please Himself.

Isn't "the good pleasure of His will" the reason y'all cite for Him choosing whom He does? Don't answer -- that's exactly what y'all say! And your injecting the notion of "yada" is just as disgusting to me as what you claim I am doing.

You have compared the giving of indwelling Holy Spirit to the forced impregnation of a woman by a raptist. The giving of Holy Spirit is for our benefit, not the unintended consequence of a pervert seeking to gratify Himself.

Thank you for offering these responses. But I do want you to be honest with yourself and your theology as well. Your description of giving the Holy Spirit as necessary to break our natural resistance to God's "drawing" is quite similar to giving a "roofie" to an unsuspecting date. (Someone here at BB even claims that regeneration only causes us not to resist the gospel.)

As to "impregnation" -- well, that parallels the "new birth," wouldn't you think? And yes, the right thing from the perspective of the man now, since it is "all of him" -- his fault -- is to marry the poor girl.

What fault are you finding with the second salvation parallel I gave you?? Is that disgusting too or is that how you think it really works --- where the woman, "eyes wide open," courts/get to know and then gives her beloved her hand in matrimony of her own free will?

I mean, I don't believe the "date rape" scenario but it seems that you do AND that you find it just as disgusting as I do! So again -- does God really force His love on some? does He "give" them, unawares, something that makes it impossible for them to resist? that makes them "submit" to the "yada?" Are they thus "reborn" and glad that the "baby" is going to have a "Father?"

And the main point I hope this gets across to you is this: Every person can hear the gospel (or a proposal of marriage) and, with eyes wide open, choose Christ or reject Him. There is no chemical or metaphysical mind/heart alteration taking place so that one minute you are incapable and the next you are capable of choosing/deciding. And furthermore, You DO need to choose/decide to be saved. That's what God gave you a mind/spirit for. If He didn't give you a mind, you'd be a puppet!

skypair

 

[skypair]

Fortunately, rip brings us back to the CONTEXT of those remarks --- "the FOOLS," the ATHEISTS. There are none of them righteous, blah, blah, blah.

In Psalm 14:1 The "fool",nabal,means the spiritually deficient person,which is descriptive of every person outside of Christ.[I'm paraphrasing Robert Reymond's words from his Systematic,page 450]
[/quote] AND what does it say of this one who is 'spiritually deficient?' He says 'there is no God' -- same as an atheist.

rip -- OK, you're getting the "lose quote." The "start quote" needs to be inserted BEFORE the words you are quoting and looks like this: [ quote ] (without the spaces). Many are going to thank me if I get you doing this right even if your theology is still messed up! :laugh:

Which again omits why God shows mercy on whom He does.

God doesn't owe you or anyone else a reason for any action of His beyond the fact that it's due to His good pleasure.

If He is a rational God He does. If you think He is irrational, then I guess you can have your own thoughts on that issue.

skypair

 

[Rippon]

If He is a rational God He does. If you think He is irrational, then I guess you can have your own thoughts on that issue.

skypair

Does the Lord owe you an explanation for everything He does?Do you believe in Deut.29:29?

Because He keeps some things to Himself does not give you the right to think He is irrational.That's blasphemous anyway.

We know in part now.We see in a mirror dimly -- but in glory face-to-face. We will know fully.You wouldn't be able to digest things He has chosen not to reveal in the here and now.

 

[annsni]

Does the Lord owe you an explanation for everything He does?Do you believe in Deut.29:29?

Because He keeps some things to Himself does not give you the right to think He is irrational.That's blasphemous anyway.

We know in part now.We see in a mirror dimly -- but in glory face-to-face. We will know fully.You wouldn't be able to digest things He has chosen not to reveal in the here and now.

This makes me think of Romans 9:20-21

"But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?" Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? "

 

[skypair]

It's true that no one is "saved" until he believes the Gospel.

There IS a sane Calvinist after all!! :applause:

That does not in any way prove that the faith itself comes from man independent in some fashion but joined to the work of the Holy Spirit.

Right again!! In fact, I was just trying to get Dr Bob to distinguish this by showing that belief is in our spirit but faith comes with the Holy Spirit into our SOUL. You know -- that part that died when we sinned, Ezek 18:20.

Here's how the "transaction" takes place: We hear the gospel -- the Holy Spirit "inhabits the Word/the Truth" as my pastor used to say -- we BELIEVE the Word, the truth, the Spirit in our spirit/mind (mental assent) -- now what? We APPLY the truth by repentance to salvation in the name of Christ -- the Holy Spirit and faith, as God promises, floods into our SOUL and we are gloriously quickened/reborn/saved. All the "speculative doctrines" and "philsosphical theologies" aside, isn't THIS how the Bible says it works???

Go to Acts 2. Peter wasn't preaching to 3000 "regenerated" men! Hearing the gospel, they didn't even know what to do!! And when he said, "Repent in the name of Christ ... and receive the Holy Ghost," what did they to first -- receive the Holy Ghost or repent???

The effectual work of the Holy Spirit is the cause of one being born again (regenerated) whereby one believes the Gospel and is a child of God.

No, Ares. In this you have believed a "cunningly devised fable" (Titus 1:16)! There is NO Bible phrase "effectual calling." There is no Bible instance of one "born again" before that one "believed."

Let me make a demonstration that jd didn't like so very well but that I think is appropriate -- on the flip side of salvation, how do you think a demon comes to possess a person? The sinful thought is suggested -- the message is believed -- that act is committed -- gratification came instantly -- repeat until the behavior CONTROLS the individual! A demon has "attached" to that person's very soul!!

The DoG position does not teach that God elects independently of His Word--Gospel preaching of other ways by which one is exposed to His Word--(Rom 10:13-17). The DoG position does not teach that God elects and saves apart from conviction, faith, and repentance. The only difference is that the DoG position teaches that all of this comes ultimately from an effectual work of God with the full intent to save someone whom God elected.

Well, I think some here are going to disagree with your statement of the DoG. And like I said, "effectual work" and "fore-yada" are NOT in my Bible.

All positive inner and outer acts of man toward the Gospel are a result of God's effectual work to accomplish His purpose.

"Effectual work" presumes a) predetermination to salvation and b) that God actually exercises His "total sovereignty" when, in fact, His total sovereignty includes "permissive will" under which man CAN do what he wants -- good or bad. IOW, the sotierology and theology are as "holey as cheese!" :laugh: They have as many "earmarks" as Calvin could put into the "decrees!"

There is no faith/election dichotomy. I repeat: there is no faith/election dichotomy.

Correct! Those who have faith are elected.

Where do you get this soul/spirit dichotomy from the Bible such that one's soul is depraved but one's spirit is not?

Heb 4:12, 1Thes 5:23. The soul can be and is "divided asunder" by the word of God. And God wants to save you soul (eternally), spirit (this life) and body (eventual glory).

He, I, and you changed [our] mind as the effectual result of the Holy Spirit's sovereign work in overwhelming our depraved hearts of stone with the truth of the Gospel, quickening our spirits that were dead in sin.

You're missing a "step." Our hearts/spirits were overwhelmed -- our dead souls were "made alive again" -- but we had to believe and repent in between.

Where do you get this belief/faith dichotomy from Scripture as well?

It appears that this is an issue so here goes: We have many beliefs, most of which are unsubstantiated, right? Those are our "thoughts" according to 1Cor 3. But there are some "thoughts" that are proven, Heb 11:1, by God. They are called "wisdom" and reside in the soul. How so? Because they become "standards" for our lives -- they become our "CONSCIENCE!" So our conscience/soul that was "dead" to God -- wouldn't even consider His warnings -- now lives by them!

Faith and belief come from the same Greek word--pistis.

Same word, I know. Different application, Ares.

You are trying to say that "trust" comes from man to get "faith" that comes from God. It's the same thing and it comes from God.

Belief and faith come from God. That is true. They are the same thing except that faith is "effectual" but belief is not necessarily. Do you see that?

I have tried unsuccessfully to demonstrate this before -- that belief comes before regeneration comes before faith, the latter part in complete agreement with what Calvinist's believe.

The same faith that you argue comes from God sovereignly in sanctification is the same faith that comes from God sovereignly in justification. Justification is just the point in time in your life where this faith began.

BRAVO!! The soul is justified immediately by faith -- the spirit sanctified progressively by faith -- the body glorified ultimately by faith!!

Well, that's enough for you to digest and react to. Thanks for joining the debate.

skypair

 

[skypair]

Does the Lord owe you an explanation for everything He does?Do you believe in Deut.29:29?

It, apparently, all depends on what God has revealed to YOU then, doesn't it.

Because He keeps some things to Himself does not give you the right to think He is irrational.

Rip -- we NEED to know about salvation. That is a "eye's only - need to know only" security classification. Don't call it "blasphemous" that God tells us how to be saved.

We know in part now.We see in a mirror dimly -- but in glory face-to-face. We will know fully.You wouldn't be able to digest things He has chosen not to reveal in the here and now.

If you don't know what God requires of you, how do you know that what you believe and do saves at all? Is your mirror that dim?

skypair