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Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by timdabap, Mar 13, 2022.

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  1. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    Is sin ungodly? Was He made to be sin?
     
    #21 Aaron, Mar 15, 2022
  2. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    Can a member of the Trinity become sin? Stop appealing to your erroneous notions of the Trinity, and go with what we're told in the Scriptures.
     
    #22 Aaron, Mar 15, 2022
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  3. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    The rest was as non-germane to the topic as your faulting finding where none exists.
     
    #23 Van, Mar 15, 2022
  4. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    I take this as your admission that you have no biblical response to what I wrote and therefore have avoided and deflected.
     
    #24 AustinC, Mar 15, 2022
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  5. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    Only the ungodly (according to Romans 1) are appointed to the wrath of God even listing the specific qualifications. So, if Christ became an ungodly sinner then He could have had the wrath of God. If He did not fit those qualifications, there can be no wrath from God.

    For does not the Scripture state in Galatians 1:4
    Jesus gave his life for our sins, just as God our Father planned, in order to rescue us from this evil world in which we live.​

    This verse isn't particularly about Christ: however, it could be more of a parallel of Isaiah 53 and the attitude of God in why He prophesied the Christ would be while on this earth.
    Corinthians 1:
    27Instead, God chose things the world considers foolish (no form or beauty that we should desire Him) in order to shame those who think they are wise. And he chose things that are powerless (suffering sorrows and in pains of grief) to shame those who are powerful. 28God chose things despised (despised and not esteemed) by the world, things counted as nothing at all (hid as it were our faces from Him), and used them to bring to nothing what the world considers important. ​

    I know it is a fanciful fit at best, but I do enjoy how the Scriptures blend so.

    God in Christ forgave sin even prior to the cross. The adulterous woman, the paralytic.

    We make much of the blood - correctly so - yet look at this from Peter in Acts 10:
    39We are witnesses of all that He did, both in the land of the Jews and in Jerusalem. And although they put Him to death by hanging Him on a tree, 40God raised Him up on the third day and caused Him to be seen— 41not by all the people, but by the witnesses God had chosen beforehand, by us who ate and drank with Him after He rose from the dead. 42And He commanded us to preach to the people and to testify that He is the One appointed by God to judge the living and the dead. 43All the prophets testify about Him that everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins through His name.”​
    How is forgiveness then received?
    Through His Name. The shedding of blood had to be done in order for the forgiveness of sins through His name.

    All this points to the lack of wrath, but the importance of that which was accomplished.
     
    #25 agedman, Mar 15, 2022
  6. Reynolds

    Reynolds Well-Known Member
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    True, I have heard several people say that.
     
    #26 Reynolds, Mar 15, 2022
  7. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    To the Word (this is a very simple question to answer).

    Provide a passage stating that what Christ suffered was God's wrath and let's end the issue for once and all.

    If it is in the text then it is scripture and if it is not there then it is unscriptural.
     
    #27 JonC, Mar 15, 2022
  8. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    Jon, this is the same as saying "publish a verse that uses the word trinity."
     
    #28 AustinC, Mar 15, 2022
  9. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    No ot isn't.

    It is the same as "please post a verse that says there is one God, a verse that says the Spirit is the Soirit of God, a verse that calls the Father God, and a verse that equates the Son to God.

    I have never asked for a single passage in one place declaring the entire Penal Substitution Theory.

    I never asked for a verse using the word "Penal Substitution Theory".


    I am saying for the Theory to be scriptural it has to be in Scripture.

    Look from Genesis to Revelation. Provide a verse that says:

    1. Christ suffered God's wrath.
    2. Another one that says Christ died instead of us.
    3. Another one that says the Just can be condemned to acquit the guilty.

    That kinda of thing. Not the title "Penal Substitution Theory". And the points of the Theory don't have to be in one place.

    But - like with the doctrine of the Trinity - they need to be in the text of Scripture you be Scriptural.

    Otherwise it is just philosophy - and it fails the test of Scrioture.
     
    #29 JonC, Mar 16, 2022
  10. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    How?

    I'm not asking for you to provide a passage that states "Penal Substitution".

    Here is the difference:

    I can provide a verse stating that God is One.
    I can provide a verse stating the Spirit is God's Spirit.
    I can provide a verse stating the Father and Son are One.

    But you cannot provide a verse stating Jesus experienced God's wrath.
    You cannot provide a verse stating Jesus died instead of us.
    You cannot provide a verse stating Christ's death appeased God.
     
    #30 JonC, Mar 16, 2022
  11. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Romans 1says God's wrath is revealed against all sin....not just that of the ungodly.
     
    #31 Iconoclast, Mar 16, 2022
  12. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    There is no godly sin.

    Romans 1:18–20 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

    Did Christ supress the truth in unrighteousness?

    Romans 1:21–32 For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools,and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures.Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them. For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error. And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper,
    being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; they are gossips, slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents,without understanding, untrustworthy, unloving, unmerciful; and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them.

    @Iconoclast ,

    You are taking one verse (actually a couple of words) out of context to prop up your theory. Instead just believe what is written.
     
    #32 JonC, Mar 16, 2022
  13. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Was Christ made "evil, rebellion against God, unrighteous, a wicked act"? No. In the judgment of the World He was.


    But Jesus has "too pure of eyes to look upon sin".
     
    #33 JonC, Mar 16, 2022
  14. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    So Christ drank His own blood? Fascinating.
     
    #34 Martin Marprelate, Mar 16, 2022
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  15. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    Moslems believe that. It does not prove the Trinity.
    The JWs believe that.
    That doesn't prove the Trinity. They might be on one mind or one opinion.
    To prove the Trinity you have to understand and teach 'The whole counsel of God,' and to 'be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.' The same diligence is required to understand the Doctrine of Penal Substitution or any of the other great truths of Christianity.
     
    #35 Martin Marprelate, Mar 16, 2022
  16. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Except Scripture does not say the Father, Son, and Spirit are of "one mind". Cults often eleven passages of Scrioture. The JW's do not believe Jesus and God are One. Like you, they change Scripture to suit their philosophy and traditions.

    I'm not saying just accept one verse. We accept THE WHOLE COUNSEL OF GOD. But we DO NOT add to Scripture (as you are doing).

    Penal Substitution Theory cannot be supported biblically. It simply is foreign to the text of Scripture (what is written).

    Script does say the Spirit is the Spirit is the Spirit of God, The Father and Son are One, and God is One.

    If someone changed the verse to read "merely of one mind" you would have no right to object as you also add to God's Word.

    I, on the other hand, choose to believe God's Word. You are carried away by vain philosophy and would for better to simply believe Scripture (without having to add to it).
     
    #36 JonC, Mar 16, 2022
  17. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Sir, you can make one false claim after another as you seem untethered to truth.
     
    #37 Van, Mar 16, 2022
  18. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    Quite dodging the question.

    The judgment of the world is irrelevant. Was He sin in the judgment of God?
     
    #38 Aaron, Mar 16, 2022
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  19. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Yet another absurdity used to obfuscate biblical truth.

    What verse says or suggests God's wrath (the consequence and punishment of not following the will of God) was poured out on Christ? None as Christ is sinless.

    What was in the "cup" which Christ choose to drink? Wrath? Nope! The cup was to hold the blood of Christ, thus His life was the drink, He choose to die to provide the New Covenant in His Blood.

    For those exhibiting willful ignorance, the cup Christ chose to drink was a metaphor for His sacrificial death as the Lamb of God.
     
    #39 Van, Mar 16, 2022
  20. JesusFan

    JesusFan Well-Known Member

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    When and how was the Judgement and wrath due to us from God been propitiated and averted then?
     
    #40 JesusFan, Mar 16, 2022
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