I Like the NIV at Eph. 5:3, but I can't...

[TCGreek]

1. I'm reading Craig Groeshel Confessions of a Pastor and I quotes Eph. 5:3 in the NIV: "But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality..."

2. I consulted my NASB but it reads differently: "But immorality or any impurity or greed must not even be named among you, as is proper among saints;" There's no hint here.

3. Then I consulted my Greek text, but there's nothing for a hint.

4. Nevertheless, I love th NIV's reading of a μηδε ονομαζεσθω εν υμιν( "Let them not even be named among you," TCG).

 

[Deacon]

...find a hint of hint. :applause:

It’s just a good translation of the intended meaning.

Down the street from the church I attend there is a pastor who just announced that she is gay.
Her statement wasn’t a confession or a prelude to repentance, it was an announcement.
The congregation in this fairly liberal congregation has to make a choice now.
Seems easy to me, but it’s always easier to point fingers at others.

In this rich and wealth area it’s easy to overlook the fact that covetousness is also mentioned in the text.

Covetousness: a strong desire for material positions, eagerness to possess, acquire and keep

Put to death therefore what is earthly in you: sexual immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry.
On account of these the wrath of God is coming.
In these you too once walked, when you were living in them.
Colossians 3:5-7 ESV

How should we react to covetousness in our midst?
Let it not be named among you, not even a hint!

Rob

 

[franklinmonroe]

..."But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality..." ... Nevertheless, I love the NIV's reading...

If the language was softer then "a hint" might be appropriate ("there should not even be a hint", for example). But "must" makes this a command; as I think Paul intended for it to be.

How could they regulate 'hinting' or suggesting? Would the Ephesians be guilty of defying Paul's instruction if there were such an accusation? It is impossible to prevent unfounded slurs from being thrown at a congregation. I hope the NIV is not implying that they were being exhorted to hide their sins so well that it could not be detected.

However, it is within the will of each individual of the congregation to control their own behavior. I think Paul's instruction and hope was that not a single case of this sin ever be numbered against them by the Lord .

But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; (Eph. 5:3, KJV)​

 

[TCGreek]

If the language was softer then "a hint" might be appropriate ("there should not even be a hint", for example). But "must" makes this a command; as I think Paul intended for it to be.

How could they regulate 'hinting' or suggesting? Would the Ephesians be guilty of defying Paul's instruction if there were such an accusation? It is impossible to prevent unfounded slurs from being thrown at a congregation. I hope the NIV is not implying that they were being exhorted to hide their sins so well that it could not be detected.

However, it is within the will of each individual of the congregation to control their own behavior. I think Paul's instruction and hope was that not a single case of this sin ever be numbered against them by the Lord .

But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; (Eph. 5:3, KJV)​

1. The KJV's reading has covetousness as the antecedent of "it" in the translation of the imperative.

2. But the NIV applies the imperative ονομαζεσθω to each vice.

3. I think the NIV is correct in doing that.

 

[npetreley]

I don't like the "hint" translation because it invites the same misinterpretation as people tend to draw from "avoid all appearance of evil". Having it "not named among you" means DON'T DO IT. But "not a hint" can mean "don't let anyone THINK you're doing it even if you're innocent".

 

[franklinmonroe]

1. The KJV's reading has covetousness as the antecedent of "it" in the translation of the imperative...

Your Greek surpasses mine by far, but I believe that there is no "it" in the Greek. "It" was supplied by the KJV men. I'm not really endorsing the KJV's rendering here, anyway. I don't know why they used "it" instead of "them" or some plural terms to indicate all the sins are being referrenced.

I notice that the NIV does not add "a hint" in the next verse (where they insert the words "nor should there be"). Obscenity should not be at all, but does this indicate to us that some minor evidence of obsenity would be acceptable? --

Nor should there be obscenity, foolish talk or coarse joking, which are out of place, but rather thanksgiving. (Eph. 5:4, NIV)​

Paul is just continuing the list (in Greek, it is simply kai). Why would the NIV not treat these in the same manner?

 

[TCGreek]

Your Greek surpasses mine by far, but I believe that there is no "it" in the Greek. "It" was supplied by the KJV men. I'm not really endorsing the KJV's rendering here, anyway. I don't know why they used "it" instead of "them" or some plural terms to indicate all the sins are being referrenced.

I notice that the NIV does not add "a hint" in the next verse (where they insert the words "nor should there be"). Obscenity should not be at all, but does this indicate to us that some minor evidence of obsenity would be acceptable? --

Nor should there be obscenity, foolish talk or coarse joking, which are out of place, but rather thanksgiving. (Eph. 5:4, NIV)​

Paul is just continuing the list (in Greek, it is simply kai). Why would the NIV not treat these in the same manner?

1. ονομαζεσθω is 3rd person, present passive, singular, imperative, so embedded in this imperative is it, which the KJV translators considered as coveteousness.

2. But in Greek a singular verb is often used to refer to a list of things as is the case here.

 

[TCGreek]

I don't like the "hint" translation because it invites the same misinterpretation as people tend to draw from "avoid all appearance of evil". Having it "not named among you" means DON'T DO IT. But "not a hint" can mean "don't let anyone THINK you're doing it even if you're innocent".

Good observation! I didn't even consider that. I makes for legalism too.

 

[franklinmonroe]

... But "not a hint" can mean "don't let anyone THINK you're doing it even if you're innocent".

Exactly! We cannot regulate the suggestion of wrongdoing ("a hint") by others. Others may misinterpret our actions or motives. I doubt that Paul meant the Lord would hold us responsible if unfounded accusations were leveled against His Bride.

 

[franklinmonroe]

Good observation! I didn't even consider that. I makes for legalism too.

So, now that I (and npetreley) have brought the problem with "a hint" to your attention, do you still "love the NIV's reading" for this verse?

 

[npetreley]

So, now that I (and npetreley) have brought the problem with "a hint" to your attention, do you still "love the NIV's reading" for this verse?

I don't think it's just an NIV thing. Keep in mind that the KJV creates the same problem with its translation of 1 Thessalonians 5:22. "Abstain from all appearance of evil." However, unlike the NIV, I don't think this problem was created by the KJV translators. I suspect it's our modern interpretation of the verse that causes us to misread it as "avoid appearing evil". I could be wrong, but I suspect 200+ years ago, readers might have understood this verse properly ("avoid evil wherever and however it appears").

 

[TCGreek]

So, now that I (and npetreley) have brought the problem with "a hint" to your attention, do you still "love the NIV's reading" for this verse?

1. Iron sharpens Iron and Npet brought out a good point, creating misreadings.

2. Considering the Greek text some more, there's no Greek for "hint," except it was one of those NIV interpretations.

 

[TCGreek]

I don't think it's just an NIV thing. Keep in mind that the KJV creates the same problem with its translation of 1 Thessalonians 5:22. "Abstain from all appearance of evil." However, unlike the NIV, I don't think this problem was created by the KJV translators. I suspect it's our modern interpretation of the verse that causes us to misread it as "avoid appearing evil". I could be wrong, but I suspect 200+ years ago, readers might have understood this verse properly ("avoid evil wherever and however it appears").

1. Yeah, Npet, the KJV in today's vernacular has created misreadings at 1 Thess 5:22.

2. Let me bore you with some Greek: απο παντος ειδους πονηρου απεχεσθε, "Abstain from every form of evil." Eidos is literally "form."

3. But according to Npet appearance may have worked in 1611.

 

[npetreley]

3. But according to Npet appearance may have worked in 1611.

That's just a guess. I didn't actually look into it.

 

[TCGreek]

That's just a guess. I didn't actually look into it.

I guess we'll have to leave it up to the KJV experts, then. :thumbs:

 

[Deacon]

How could they regulate 'hinting' or suggesting? Would the Ephesians be guilty of defying Paul's instruction if there were such an accusation? It is impossible to prevent unfounded slurs from being thrown at a congregation. I hope the NIV is not implying that they were being exhorted to hide their sins so well that it could not be detected.

However, it is within the will of each individual of the congregation to control their own behavior. I think Paul's instruction and hope was that not a single case of this sin ever be numbered against them by the Lord .

A collection of thoughts:

1. I don’t see why either translation couldn’t be confused in that same way.

2. The phrase, “not a hint” is translated from the compound disjunctive, “me-de” translated, “must not even” or “but not” in many versions.
And “onomazo" a verb meaning "let be named" or “give a name to”

3. The AV translated it, “let it not be once named…”

The NRSV translates it …
“must not even be mentioned”

The NIV translated the same phrase, “must not be even a hint”

4. These are merely different ways of saying the same thing.

5. Just as there is little hint of “hint”, there is little hint of “once” [found in the KJV] either.

6. In Ephesians, Paul is writing about our Christian walk.

Paul simply means that there should be no a reason to speak about immorality, impurity or greed, since the people should not be guilty of such behavior.

People should behave in such a manner that there would be no reason for others to accuse them, there should be no hint of those behaviors.

7. Louw & Nida write:
33.93 ὀνομάζωc: to speak of something by mentioning the name of it—‘to mention, to speak about.’ πλεονεξία μηδὲ ὀνομαζέσθω ἐν ὑμῖν ‘greed should not even be mentioned among you’ Eph 5.3. There may, however, be certain problems involved in translating ὀνομάζω in Eph 5.3, for the text does not mean that one should never use a term such as πλεονεξία ‘greed’ (25.22). The meaning is simply that there should never be a reason for having to speak about greed, since the people should not themselves be guilty of such behavior.
Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament (1996, c1989). (1:399).

8. If there is no hint of immorality, it will not be named among them.

Rob

 

[Salamander]

:laugh:

1. Yeah, Npet, the KJV in today's vernacular has created misreadings at 1 Thess 5:22.

2. Let me bore you with some Greek: απο παντος ειδους πονηρου απεχεσθε, "Abstain from every form of evil." Eidos is literally "form."

3. But according to Npet appearance may have worked in 1611.

:laugh: I suppose now any form may not have an appearance.:laugh: :laugh:

 

[npetreley]

:laugh: :laugh: I suppose now any form may not have an appearance.:laugh: :laugh:

I get your point, but that interpretation cannot be correct. Jesus did things that APPEARED evil all the time. He repeatedly deliberately tweaked the noses of the Pharisees by breaking their man-made rules. He was called a glutton and wine-bibber. If the verse meant "avoid any possibility of appearing evil", Jesus would be guilty of breaking scripture.

 

[TCGreek]

A collection of thoughts:

1. I don’t see why either translation couldn’t be confused in that same way.

2. The phrase, “not a hint” is translated from the compound disjunctive, “me-de” translated, “must not even” or “but not” in many versions.
And “onomazo" a verb meaning "let be named" or “give a name to”

3. The AV translated it, “let it not be once named…”

The NRSV translates it …
“must not even be mentioned”

The NIV translated the same phrase, “must not be even a hint”

4. These are merely different ways of saying the same thing.

5. Just as there is little hint of “hint”, there is little hint of “once” [found in the KJV] either.

6. In Ephesians, Paul is writing about our Christian walk.

Paul simply means that there should be no a reason to speak about immorality, impurity or greed, since the people should not be guilty of such behavior.

People should behave in such a manner that there would be no reason for others to accuse them, there should be no hint of those behaviors.

7. Louw & Nida write:
33.93 ὀνομάζωc: to speak of something by mentioning the name of it—‘to mention, to speak about.’ πλεονεξία μηδὲ ὀνομαζέσθω ἐν ὑμῖν ‘greed should not even be mentioned among you’ Eph 5.3. There may, however, be certain problems involved in translating ὀνομάζω in Eph 5.3, for the text does not mean that one should never use a term such as πλεονεξία ‘greed’ (25.22). The meaning is simply that there should never be a reason for having to speak about greed, since the people should not themselves be guilty of such behavior.
Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament (1996, c1989). (1:399).

8. If there is no hint of immorality, it will not be named among them.

Rob

1. While Paul's choice of the more emphatic μηδὲ is understood, the NIV's translation is a bit misleading.

2. BDAG understands μηδὲ as not even at this point.

3. The NIV has not even but also adds a hint. There's a degree of difference between not even and a hint with ὀνομάζω being involved.

 

[TCGreek]

I get your point, but that interpretation cannot be correct. Jesus did things that APPEARED evil all the time. He repeatedly deliberately tweaked the noses of the Pharisees by breaking their man-made rules. He was called a glutton and wine-bibber. If the verse meant "avoid any possibility of appearing evil", Jesus would be guilty of breaking scripture.

Well argued.