I think John 9:39-41 says it all...

[Brother Bob]

Yes, Bob. There's only one major difference --- they give people the notion that they are saved/regenerated/elect if the understand the gospel, recite a creed and the Lord's Prayer every Sunday, and join the church.

They do not have invitations to salvation -- it would be contradictory to say there is some "work" you can do to receive salvation and thereby "command God to give it to you." The best you can hope for is that you are elect (and personally, I am offended by such a gospel).

skypair

I believe they announce an "open church door" to anyone who feels that God has forgiven them of their sins.

BBob,

 

[skypair]

Actually, this is as much of a double edged sword as any accusation you bring against Calvinists.

In criticizing them and alluding to them as Pharisees the same can be said of you.

Remember that the Pharisees demanded works of righteousness from the Jews, because they see, just as you demand proof of regeneration because you think you have it all figured out.

One finger points, three point back at you.

Pinoy -- that is so true. If I am wrong, I condemn myself all the more before God, don't I? And I am not the best Christian -- far from it.

But can you show that I don't have it all figured out? Can you show that Calvinists don't claim to have the capability to "see" before they even have been given a "spiritual nature?" Cause that is what the accusation is and Jesus made it very plain -- if you claim you see, you are yet blind. The fact that they believe they see first (per 1Cr 2:14, etal.) is merely a rejection/denial of God's way of giving sight --- through obeying the call to repentance and faith. God gives sight to the blind, not to the seeing.

skypair

 

[reformedbeliever]

Calvinism's claim is that the "elect" can "see" spiritually before they hear the gospel so that they DO hear it effecaciously when they are called. The Pharisees claimed that they could "see" spiritually and didn't need to hear Christ.

If you claim the ability to "see" spiritually so that you are able recognize truth without being saved first, you are actually "spiritually blind" according to Jesus.

Look at Nicodemus in John 3. In that conversation, he didn't know which end was up! He was "flailing" spiritually. BUT he wasn't rejecting. When he came to believe, then he could counter his fellow Pharisees to the point that they detected that he, too, believed and followed Jesus! You just CANNOT keep insisting that you see spiritually before you are saved. To do so is merely to misinterpret scripture.

skypair

In your faulty opinion.

 

[reformedbeliever]

Yes, Bob. There's only one major difference --- they give people the notion that they are saved/regenerated/elect if the understand the gospel, recite a creed and the Lord's Prayer every Sunday, and join the church.

They do not have invitations to salvation -- it would be contradictory to say there is some "work" you can do to receive salvation and thereby "command God to give it to you." Instead people sit in their pews week after week trying to do what is Christian" and, I've seen it, trying to put on a good face. The best you can hope for is that you are elect or come to believe you are elect (and personally, I am offended by such a gospel). So there you have it.

skypair

You are intentionally bearing false witness. Misrepresentation, especially after being told so many times, is intentional false witness. You need to repent.

Liars shall not inherit the kingdom of God. False witnesses are liars. Those who practice such sin are not of God. So there you have it.

 

[Brother Bob]

They do not have invitations to salvation -- it would be contradictory to say there is some "work" you can do to receive salvation and thereby "command God to give it to you." Instead people sit in their pews week after week trying to do what is Christian" and, I've seen it, trying to put on a good face. The best you can hope for is that you are elect or come to believe you are elect (and personally, I am offended by such a gospel). So there you have it.

skypair

I did not say they gave invitations to Salvation. They announce an "open door" for those who feel that God has forgiven them of their sins, and want a home with that particular church. That is a big difference that "inviting to Salvation".

The do as we do, announce an "open door" to those who feel that God has already forgiven them, and want a home with us.



BBob,

 

[npetreley]

I know of this Calvinist preacher who gave a beautiful sermon on election. Not only was it on election, but he characterized election as the sum and substance of all theology, and the firm foundation on which our salvation rests.

Now, skypair -- let's have a look at the way his sermon ends. Pay careful attention, skypair, so that you will be convicted as guilty every time you continue to spread your wicked lies...

Sinner, trust in Jesus: and if thou dost perish trusting in Jesus, I will perish with thee. I will make my bed in hell, side by side with thee, sinner, if thou canst perish trusting in Christ, and thou shalt lie there, and taunt me to all eternity for having taught thee falsely, if we perish. But that can never be; those who trust in Jesus shall never perish, neither shall any pluck them out of His hand. Come to Jesus, and He will in no wise cast thee out.

-Spurgeon

 

[skypair]

Sorry -- I guess you haven't seen what I've seen.

Have a delightful day.

skypair

 

[reformedbeliever]

Sorry -- I guess you haven't seen what I've seen.

Have a delightful day.

skypair

Do you call this repenting of your sin? You are being called on it sky.

 

[npetreley]

Do you call this repenting of your sin? You are being called on it sky.

Odd how so many free-willers can't seem to exercise their will when it comes to admitting they're wrong about something. Their will isn't nearly as free as they think, obviously.

 

[skypair]

Do you call this repenting of your sin? You are being called on it sky.

No comment. Ooops, that was a comment, wasn't it. :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

skypair

 

[skypair]

Odd how so many free-willers can't seem to exercise their will when it comes to admitting they're wrong about something. Their will isn't nearly as free as they think, obviously.

npetrely --- I only have the "sorrow of this world." Wish that I had not tried to demonstrate the truth of Jesus words before y'all.

But I will be eternally grateful for the mocking I receive here on account of the truth.

skypair

 

[Helen]

Reading this thread. Gentlemen, if someone who did not know which theology was correct and was simply looking for which showed a Christlike character, I'm afraid Calvinism would come off a far loser.

I thought it was illegal on BB to call someone a liar, by the way...

 

[Alex Quackenbush]

"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved." The simplicity and clarity of the sequence of salvation is reduced to its most essential elements and reality. One believes and then...they are saved.

It is clear, quite clear that the passage does not say:

Believe after you are saved or After you are saved, believe.

No, God does not play games, people do. Here the communication of God to humanity is as simple as it will ever get. The only cause for misinterpretation here is the unwillingness to accept what God has declared most plainly.

"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved."

 

[Helen]

Thank you, Alex, and amen.

 

[skypair]

Here's a quote from Aaron on another thread:

When it comes right down to it, those who are born again simply become the sons of God, Jn 1:13. It just happens. That's it. We have just as much a say in it as we did in our first birth. Repentance and prayer are the fruit of regeneration, not the other way around.

This is Calvinism, right? Do you think this man believes that he "sees?" Does he?

skypair