I think most Baptists have Romans 7 totally wrong

[Jim1999]

Does this beard qualify me for sinless perfection?:saint:

Cheers,

Jim

 

[Marcia]

So, we have sinless perfection. I think I have heard that one before, but it was a oneness pentecostal, not baptist.

Cheers,

Jim

Isnt' this a holiness view that was preached by Wesley? I also think the (Church of the) Nazarenes may have this belief, that one can attain a sin-free state.

 

[Trotter]

So at what point in the Christian life does this come to pass?

I do believe Paul described it as glorification, the time when we are made like Christ. The only problem is that this does not occur until we have shed this current mortality, commonly known as death. Great question, by the way.

if it were possible to be sin free why does God give christians instructions on WHEN they sin. Since only Jesus is sin free, aren't we putting ourselves on His level if we say we are sin free? Just making the claim is sin, it's pride.

Exactly.

In my experience those whom believe the bible teaches christians can live sin free (or do you mean actually and ALWAYS 24 hrs a day 7 days a week for the rest of your life - not 1 sin??) have first a low opinion of God's perfect standards, a high opinion of their own righteousness and a wrong understanding of what sin actually is.

Mark it down, what would you have to do to actually live 100% sin free?? That is why when we realize we are sinners coming short of God's standards and will for our lives we have nothing but to throw ourselves before the grace and mercy of God and thank Him for allowing us to know Him, serve Him, worship Him and have Him in our lives despite our obvious failings, even though we are works in process we just don't measure up....

Well said. Those of this persuation that have been willing to talk about have shown that "sin" becomes renamed as something else, something less benign. The only problem is that a skunk by any other name still stinks. God does not see sin in degrees, or "shortcomings" as something else; God is perfectly holy and He calls 'em like He sees 'em.

jygf77, we are not trying to condemn you or give you a hard time, really. Anyone who comes through here and lamblasts somehing of this magnitude will have to be ready, willing, and able to back it up. Most here are well-seasoned (not old, mind you) Christian and have been through the trenches with things like this. Come and let us reason together and see if we can learn from one another.

 

[Mexdeaf]

I do believe Paul described it as glorification, the time when we are made like Christ. The only problem is that this does not occur until we have shed this current mortality, commonly known as death. Great question, by the way.

Good answer, too! Going up to your neck of the woods next week. If you have time maybe we can get together or we can drive up there and visit a service. I'll PM you later. God bless.

 

[Tom Butler]

A former pastor of mine once commented, "Let me define sin and I can live above it, too."

 

[saturneptune]

The 'study note' under Romans 7:17 in Zondervan's "NASB Study Bible" (edited by Kenneth Barker) says this: "Not an attempt to escape moral responsibility but a statement of the great control sin can have over a Christians life." If the apostle Paul read that, he would go find Kenneth Barker and ol' Kenny Boy would know he had barked up the wrong tree. Sin can have no control over a Christian's life, by definition. Christian means "little Christ." If that isn't enough to convince you (and I hope it isn't), allow me to continue...

Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. He who does what is right is righteous, just as He is righteous. He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. (1 John 3:7-8).

John knew that Kenneth Barker and whoever else would be leading us astray, trying to get us to believe that a righteous person can sin. That is why John wrote what he wrote. Many Christians make claims like, "as believers we must wage war against the sin that remains in us." This is a lie. Although many have been decieved into thinking it is true, it remains a lie nonetheless, and it decieves many people into thinking it is normal for a Christian to sin.

Many things Scripture says can be devastating to someone's life and eternity if they are misunderstood and taken out of context. For instance, take Christ's command to hate our families. Looking at Scripture on the whole, and especially at the context of individual verses, is absolutely critical to understanding Scripture.

People who think Christians are at war with sin (sometimes winning, sometimes losing, but always making progress) base this belief off of Romans 7:23, however, the truth is that true Christians have no sin remaining in them. They sin no more. The man who says, "I know [Christ]," but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him. (1 John 2:4). No one who lives in [God] keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen [God] or known him. (1 John 3:5)

Many Christians think Romans chapter 7 teaches that believers can (and indeed must) sin and still have sin in them. They totally misunderstand Romans 7, because there Paul is talking about what sin did to him. He is describing his former thinking, but he uses present tense to describe it. This can be confusing, especially because people stop reading at the end of chapter 7. The original letter he wrote did not have any such chapter breaks.

In verse 7:25 Paul says he is a slave to God's law in the mind and to sin's law in the sinful nature. Paul is not saying that his mind is good and his body bad. He is saying the law is good, but it is unable to save any man (see Romans 10). Paul is saying both his mind (with the law) and his body (with sin) are unable to do anything righteous.

The key, however, is to see that ultimately Paul concludes (on into chapter 8) that "through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law was powerless to do... God did by sending his own Son... to be a sin offering... in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us... who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit.

Paul's entire point is that he was eventually "set free", through Christ, to live according to the Spirit. He continues, "..those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God. You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. ... Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation, but it is not to the sinful nature, to live according to it. For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die.

When Paul says, back in chapter 7 verse 20, "the good I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want," he is not refering to himself now as a Christian. That would contradict the entire point he is making. What Paul is describing in chapter 7 is how he felt back when he was trying to attain righteousness through the Law. Paul is relating to us, in first person, his experience of when he was in sin which, through the Law, had him dead. (7:9).

This is a very important concept Christians need to understand, because by misunderstanding it thousands if not millions think they are able to be "disobedient believers." The truth that the apostle John warned us people would try to lead us astray from (top of this page) is this. The righteous act righteous, for they know God, and sinners act sinful, for they are of the devil. Disobedient believers end up in the same place as the disobedient un-believers. As Paul said above, "for if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die."

Another verse many Christians misquote is where James wrote, "Not many of you should presume to be teachers, my brothers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly. We all stumble in many ways. If anyone is never at fault in what he says, he is a perfect man, able to keep his whole body in check." (James 2). They think James is telling us that everyone sins all the time. That is not at all what James is saying.

James, rather, is talking about people who want to teach others. No one but God says the truth all the time and never makes an honest mistake. We all will accidentally tell someone something that is untrue at this time or another, and that doesn't make us sinners or liars unless we intended to deceive. It just makes us imperfect humans. James is warning people to be very careful about teaching, because we all are subject to human error... and in the case of Christian doctrine, error has enormous consequences.

When Jesus told us to be perfect (Matthew 5:48), the context was not about teaching, speaking, or the common "human error" that we all make and stumble with all the time. Jesus was talking about perfect love, doing everything you do out of love for your neighbor. We *can* be perfect in that sense, and indeed we *must* be to obey Christ.

One more verse that many Christians twist is when John wrote, "If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us." (1 John 1:8). Again, context is essential to understand what he was saying. Verse 10 clarifies what John means, "If we say we have not sinned, we make God a liar." John is not saying we must admit we are sinning. He is saying we must admit we have sinned. Indeed, it is possible to live a sin-free life after being forgiven. Christ commanded it, and in the very next verse (John 2:1) John tells us the very reason he was writing all this: "I am writing these things to you, my little children, so that you will not sin."

For more on 1 John ch. 1 and ch. 2, and some discussion about the tenses of the verbs there, see the doctrine section of my website (below)

God's peace to you,
Jason
www.acts420.com

Baloney to be nice

 

[Mexdeaf]

A former pastor of mine once commented, "Let me define sin and I can live above it, too."

Very good summary of the subject!:thumbsup:

 

[saturneptune]

Very good summary of the subject!:thumbsup:

This thread is a remake of another thread that went around about two years ago called the "24 Hour Sinless Day." It was proven wrong with Scripture then. The whole concept is a gross misunderstanding of the Gospel, and a terrible idea to teach weak or new Christians.

I will guarantee you, with 100% certainty, that the originator of this thread cannot live up to his own post for even one hour, in either thought, deed, or motive.

 

[HankD]

Well good to see the trolls have been fed today...

Preach, look at it this way, not fed, but scared away...

Sometimes It's good to answer them for the benefit of those babes in Christ for whom they are lying in wait.

HankD

 

[Tom Butler]

This thread is a remake of another thread that went around about two years ago called the "24 Hour Sinless Day." It was proven wrong with Scripture then. The whole concept is a gross misunderstanding of the Gospel, and a terrible idea to teach weak or new Christians.

I will guarantee you, with 100% certainty, that the originator of this thread cannot live up to his own post for even one hour, in either thought, deed, or motive.

Well, he can if he simply declares some things not to be sin. Shoot, we do it all the time. How many times have we said, or heard somebody say, "well, i just don't think (fill in the blank) is wrong." Or, "I don't see anything wrong with that."

I'm quite certain our Original Poster seeks holy living. I'll bet he's a really good guy, and strives to please God in all that he does, says or thinks.

And although I usually counsel my brother saturneptune to use milder terminology when expressing disagreement with someone, in this case I concur with his description of the OP's view:

baloney

 

[Revmitchell]

Well, he can if he simply declares some things not to be sin. Shoot, we do it all the time. How many times have we said, or heard somebody say, "well, i just don't think (fill in the blank) is wrong." Or, "I don't see anything wrong with that."

Hehe..how many own fuzz busters?:laugh:

 

[Mexdeaf]

Hehe..how many own fuzz busters?:laugh:

I do. And I'm not ashamed to admit it.

 

[David Michael Harris]

Does this beard qualify me for sinless perfection?:saint:

Cheers,

Jim

Almost Jim, I just see one dark area, and that is enough to cancel all the other lovely bright bits

 

[David Michael Harris]

One thing I will say, if your bearing fruit, the fruit that lasts that is, sin will be something overcome, and that by our faith which is the gift of God.

Never sinless, but we can do well I think. Not think actually, am sure.

 

[jygf77]

There is no written formula whereas one can be born from above.

Jason, I pray that it's not the way you say it is, because if it is this boy don't stand a chance, he's going to hell. As far as I'm concerned I'm unable to get up out of this chair and walk out of the room without sinning, and, I believe Paul is conveying that same attitude in the OP passage.

If you can't sit in a chair without sinning then either you are an incredibly sick person that is not walking with Christ in any way, shape, or form... or you have a misunderstanding about what sin actually is.

John said he wrote to use "so we will not sin." He meant it.

 

[jygf77]

So at what point in the Christian life does this come to pass?

John says it very clearly for us. "anyone born of God does not continue to sin." When you stop sinning, you have truly been born again. If you sin, you have proven that never really knew God. He stands ready to forgive... He is the God of the 2nd chance.

But know this: being "born again" is not necessarily the same thing as "believing." Re-birth can happen when you believe, but it doesn't necessarily happen when you believe. See, for instance, John 8:30-35. Read it. Believe it.

 

[jygf77]

if it were possible to be sin free why does God give christians instructions on WHEN they sin. Since only Jesus is sin free, aren't we putting ourselves on His level if we say we are sin free? Just making the claim is sin, it's pride.

Jesus did not say "don't put yourself on my level." He said don't worship anyone but God, but at the same time He said "be perfect as your heavenly father is perfect."

John (in 1 John ch. 1 and into ch. 2) tells us what to do "if" we sin. He says Christ is our sacrifice. Present tense. Look it up. He isn't saying Christ is our sacrifice (present tense) because Christ is constantly being sacrificed. Likewise he is not saying we confess (present tense) if we have sin (present tense) because we are constantly sinning. John makes clear what he means when he says "if we claim we have not sinned we lie". John is saying that if we sin, we can confess and be forgiven.

But at the same time, John makes it very clear why he is writing this. See on into ch. 2. "I'm writing this so you will not sin."

Period. As John says, "We *must* walk as Christ did." That doesn't mean we won't make mistakes. But a sincere mistake done out of love is very different from a sin done out of hate. We must keep away from sin. We *must*.

 

[jygf77]

Hmm, looks like jygf77 is a "hit and run" poster.

HankD

Not at all. I just listen more patiently then some, I suppose. And I pick the posts to respond too... for if I responded to them all I'd never eat or sleep.

May God bless you.

 

[jygf77]

I like to ask them if they have ever gone 26MPH (or more) in a 25MPH Zone.

1 Peter 2

13 Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme;
14 Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well.​

Or

1 Thessalonians 5:17 Pray without ceasing.

HankD​

You fail to understand the Scriptures. Read about when Jesus told his disciples to "obey everything the Pharisees tell you." Then, when the Pharisees told them to stop picking grain on the Sabbath, Jesus allowed them to continue and rebuked the Pharisees for not knowing Scripture.

The fact that we are to submit to and obey the governing authorities is no different from how the disciples had to submit to and obey the Pharisees. Know Scripture. It is true. But know it all, not just a single verse.

May God grant you peace.

 

[saturneptune]

You fail to understand the Scriptures. Read about when Jesus told his disciples to "obey everything the Pharisees tell you." Then, when the Pharisees told them to stop picking grain on the Sabbath, Jesus allowed them to continue and rebuked the Pharisees for not knowing Scripture.

The fact that we are to submit to and obey the governing authorities is no different from how the disciples had to submit to and obey the Pharisees. Know Scripture. It is true. But know it all, not just a single verse.

May God grant you peace.

You have no idea what you are talking about, nor from your posts, do you have any grasp of the Gospel. You are making two fatal errors. One, you cannot live up to your own standards, and two, you are posting a works salvation.

Lesser errors you make but none the less errors, is to classify sins before a Holy God. Your quote that says "That doesn't mean we won't make mistakes. But a sincere mistake done out of love is very different from a sin done out of hate" is not what Scripture says. Sin is sin, and one is as bad as another before God.

Another quote of yours:
John says it very clearly for us. "anyone born of God does not continue to sin." When you stop sinning, you have truly been born again. If you sin, you have proven that never really knew God. He stands ready to forgive... He is the God of the 2nd chance.
But know this: being "born again" is not necessarily the same thing as "believing." Re-birth can happen when you believe, but it doesn't necessarily happen when you believe. See, for instance, John 8:30-35. Read it. Believe it.

That sir, is baloney, as I said in an above post, to put it nicely. You have truly been born again when you are regenerated from above, the moment you put your faith in the finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross, not when you stop sinning. Again, you post a works salvation. The only thing you said that was accurate is God stands ready to forgive. Your last paragraph does not even make sense. It seems to be an odd blend of God's sovereignty and free-will. If one truly believes, one is saved. One would not truly believe unless revealed to him from Above.

Instead of you wishing God's peace for others, pray for knowledge for yourself.