I think most Baptists have Romans 7 totally wrong

[ccrobinson]

I realize the OP is a hit and run, but if he decides to ever come back and defend his position, I have a question also.

Why does Paul tell the Corinthians that "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."? If Christians are already sinless, there is no need to confess anything.

 

[Aaron]

So at what point in the Christian life does this come to pass?

Duh! When one is worshipping with CCM. :smilewinkgrin:

 

[HankD]

You fail to understand the Scriptures. Read about when Jesus told his disciples to "obey everything the Pharisees tell you." Then, when the Pharisees told them to stop picking grain on the Sabbath, Jesus allowed them to continue and rebuked the Pharisees for not knowing Scripture.

The fact that we are to submit to and obey the governing authorities is no different from how the disciples had to submit to and obey the Pharisees. Know Scripture. It is true. But know it all, not just a single verse.

May God grant you peace.

First of all, God has granted me peace.

Second, I would like to know the Scriptures that allow me to break the ordinances of our government at will apart from "it is better to obey God rather than men"?

Let me ask you directly:

Have you ever broken the speed limit by even 1 mile per hour?

Run a yellow light?

J-walked?

Romans 13
1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.​

1 Peter 2
13 Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme;
14 Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well.
15 For so is the will of God, that with well doing ye may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men:
16 As free, and not using your liberty for a cloke of maliciousness, but as the servants of God.​

If so you have disobeyed the Scripture. What does it matter if it is only one Scripture (OK I gave 2)? You have broken it and have sinned (unless of course Jesus has rebuked your governor for making automobile speed limit laws or making us wait for a green light to cross the street).

Its very clear to me what God's expectation is when it comes to the laws of our land and driving automobiles (the disobedience of which could kill an innocent person).

At least be honest with God if you are a law-breaker.

Here's another singular Scripture:

Matthew 5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.​

So it's only one Scripture, I therefore can go around lusting at will according to your philosophy.​

The Scripture says to pray without ceasing.​

Again, I guess it's OK to disobey because according to your outlook on the Bible as it's only one Scripture.​

Everyone of us needs to understand this passage:​

Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
10 I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.​

Our hearts are so deceitful that we often redefine sin to accomodate for those sins or find excuse for those sins which we ourselves commit.​

It's very easy for us to condemn others for the sins we ourselves do not commit (or claim we do not commit). Some how our sins beome "non-sins".

He is ready and willing to forgive those sins of His servants who acknowledge and repent of their sins.​

Revelation 2:20
20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.
21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.
22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.​

Look jygf77, I know where you are coming from. Sin among His children will not be long tolerated by our Father in heaven. There are tares among the wheat and they get away with their sin because they are none of His.​

We are chastised for our wilfull sins as His children:​

The Corinthian Christians were taking communion in an unworthy fashion (1 Corinthians 11:21 - drunk). If that's not a sin what is?​

1 Corinthians 11
30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.
31 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.
32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.​

1 John

8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.​

1 John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:​

HankD​

 

[David Michael Harris]

Not at all. I just listen more patiently then some, I suppose. And I pick the posts to respond too... for if I responded to them all I'd never eat or sleep.

May God bless you.

I agree, this hit and run thing excuse is a just a way of people being nasty to you. I pick my time every time.

 

[saturneptune]

This issue in this thread is not a hit and run poster, as how often someone posts is their choice. The issue is the substance of the posts.

 

[kyredneck]

If you can't sit in a chair without sinning then either you are an incredibly sick person that is not walking with Christ in any way, shape, or form...

Methinks you may well have an incredibly higher opinion of yourself than you ought.

...or you have a misunderstanding about what sin actually is.

No, I full well understand what Paul meant when he said, 'For I know that in me, that is, in my flesh, dwelleth no good thing'.

 

[kyredneck]

..... I would like to know the Scriptures that allow me to break the ordinances of our government at will apart from "it is better to obey God rather than men"?......

Have you ever broken the speed limit by even 1 mile per hour?

Run a yellow light?

J-walked?

Excellent points. Thank you.

 

[saturneptune]

There are only three possibilites with the originator of this thread. One, he is a troll as many have said. Two, he has no understanding of the Gospel or Scripture. Three, and it is related to a troll, he is here merely to push hot buttons, to see how we react, either to make fun of our faith or too much time on his hands.

 

[jygf77]

Methinks you may well have an incredibly higher opinion of yourself than you ought. No, I full well understand what Paul meant when he said, 'For I know that in me, that is, in my flesh, dwelleth no good thing'.

Methinks you may have an accurate opinion of yourself. But I have no idea. I don't know you, my brother.

As far as what Paul meant, you have to look at the context. Anyone can quote one verse out of context to "prove" their belief. Roman Catholics have done it in the past with "You must eat my flesh and drink my blood to have eternal life." Protestants have done it in the past with "anyone who believes in me has eternal life." And you're doing it now.

 

[jygf77]

I meant no offense when I said "grace and peace" to you. It is my belief that God can always give us more peace as we grow closer to Him, and that is all I wished for you.

As far as breaking the ordinances of those leaders here on earth Scripture tells us to obey, I already answered that question. See my post back on page 4 or so that describes how Jesus told his disciples to obey the Pharisees. Then, when the Pharisees told them it was unlawful to pick grain to eat on the sabbath, Jesus allowed his disciples to do it and rebuked the pharisees for having a bad law... a law that was not in line with Scripture.

The "rule" that we can only disobey a law when God commands us to is not true. Jesus allowed his disciples to break a law simply because they were hungry as they were walking through a field. God didn't command them to eat... they just wanted to at the time. And Jesus allowed them to.

Follow Christ's understanding of what it means to "obey" those in leadership over you, not your own tradition's understanding. Christ's teachings are often very different from what we are taught by are traditional teachers and elders.

I never said it is okay to disobey Matthew 5:28. I said Christ allowed his disciples to disobey the leaders in the law over them when those laws were unnecessary and out of line with God's word. That is all I said. We still have to obey God.. indeed, as John says, we must "walk as Christ did."

We must obey God, and all His commands boil down to two: love God and love your neighbor. Do everything out of love. We *must* do this. As far as laws from our leaders (speed limits and such), as I showed from Scripture above, we do not necessarily have to obey these if they forbid something that God's word allows. Christ specifically says we should pay taxes. Beyond that, he allowed his disciples to break other laws simply because they forbade something that God allowed.

There are all kinds of lines people can draw here, and we all have to operate under our own conscience, sincerely before God, doing what we do out of love for our neighbors and our community. For, as you probably know, "love comes from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith." (1 Tim. 1:5)

First of all, God has granted me peace.

Second, I would like to know the Scriptures that allow me to break the ordinances of our government at will apart from "it is better to obey God rather than men"?

Let me ask you directly:

Have you ever broken the speed limit by even 1 mile per hour?

Run a yellow light?

J-walked?

Romans 13
1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.​

1 Peter 2
13 Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme;
14 Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well.
15 For so is the will of God, that with well doing ye may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men:
16 As free, and not using your liberty for a cloke of maliciousness, but as the servants of God.​

If so you have disobeyed the Scripture. What does it matter if it is only one Scripture (OK I gave 2)? You have broken it and have sinned (unless of course Jesus has rebuked your governor for making automobile speed limit laws or making us wait for a green light to cross the street).

Its very clear to me what God's expectation is when it comes to the laws of our land and driving automobiles (the disobedience of which could kill an innocent person).

At least be honest with God if you are a law-breaker.

Here's another singular Scripture:

Matthew 5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.​

So it's only one Scripture, I therefore can go around lusting at will according to your philosophy.​

The Scripture says to pray without ceasing.​

Again, I guess it's OK to disobey because according to your outlook on the Bible as it's only one Scripture.​

Everyone of us needs to understand this passage:​

Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
10 I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.​

Our hearts are so deceitful that we often redefine sin to accomodate for those sins or find excuse for those sins which we ourselves commit.​

It's very easy for us to condemn others for the sins we ourselves do not commit (or claim we do not commit). Some how our sins beome "non-sins".

He is ready and willing to forgive those sins of His servants who acknowledge and repent of their sins.​

Revelation 2:20
20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.
21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.
22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.​

Look jygf77, I know where you are coming from. Sin among His children will not be long tolerated by our Father in heaven. There are tares among the wheat and they get away with their sin because they are none of His.​

We are chastised for our wilfull sins as His children:​

The Corinthian Christians were taking communion in an unworthy fashion (1 Corinthians 11:21 - drunk). If that's not a sin what is?​

1 Corinthians 11
30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.
31 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.
32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.​

1 John

8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.​

1 John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:​

HankD​

 

[jygf77]

I realize the OP is a hit and run, but if he decides to ever come back and defend his position, I have a question also.

Why does Paul tell the Corinthians that "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."? If Christians are already sinless, there is no need to confess anything.

Grace and peace to you, my brother. First of all, Paul did not say, "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." John said that (1 John 1:9). Who said it is not important though, I'm sure you will agree. The fact is, it is in the Bible so we must understand and believe it. Here is what you need to understand about that verse, my dear brother. Please read this explanation of 1 John 1:9 and the verse right before it (1 John 1:8).

Some people wonder, like you, if it is possible to not sin then why (in the book of 1 John) is the verb "have" in 1:8 ("if we claim we have no sin we lie") in the present tense? Present tense means we must admit we presently have sin, right now, right? They also ask why is the "If we confess our sins" of 1 John 1:9 present tense? What are we to presently (continually) confess if we don't have sins?

The answer is this: you have to understand that present tense "have" does not always mean "you now literally possess it." Strong's Concordance says it can also mean "possession of the mind." It can refer to something that occurred in the past and is now known in the mind. This is the same reason "sacrifice" in 2:2 is present tense. Remember, there are no chapter breaks in the letter. Read it as it was originally written.

Sacrifice, in the same context, is present tense in 2:2, but that is not because Christ is always and presently being sacrificed. Sacrifice is present tense because Christ was sacrificed in the past, and we know it in our minds now, in the present. Likewise "have sin" in 1:8 is present tense, but that isn't because we are always sinning. It is because we sinned in the past, and we now know it in the present.

If you look at 1 John 1:8 alone, it is unclear how John is using the present tense. He could mean that we all possess sin in our minds, knowing now the sins we have done before. He could also mean that we all literally possess sin, and are always presently sinning.

Of course John knew the language better than any of us, and John of course knew of this potential source of confusion in construction. That is why John says virtually the same thing as verse 8 (only with past tense) right afterward (in verse 10). He says, "if we claim we have not sinned." He says this to clarify exactly what he is getting at. Then, just to overkill the point and drive it home with a jackhammer, he immediately he tells us the *entire point* he is writing all this in the very next verse (2:1): so we will not sin. Forget about that chapter break and read the original letter. He is writing this to us so we will not sin. Seriously. He is not writing in vain. He is writing because, truly, he believes it is possible for us to not sin. Indeed, what he is saying is that, truly, we *must* not sin, for later He says we must walk as Christ did.

Then, to drive the point home even further, John then obviously uses the present tense to mean "known in the mind" again in 2:2 (sacrifice). Even though John uses the present tense in 1 John 1:8-8, he is *very* clear in the context about what he actually means.

To take 1 John ch. 1-2 and misunderstand it in order to teach people that they *have* to be sinning regularly in order to be a Christian is a complete perversion of the entire point of the letter. To use 1 John 1-2 that way makes a mockery of the Truth John is trying so obviously to relate to us. Nonetheless, that false doctrine is the sickening reality in much of Western Christianity today, and millions of believers will continue to teach it to their children and believe it themselves because their own parents did.

As far as the "present tense" confess in 1:9, that is present tense for the same reason the "sacrifice" in 2:2 is. Again, it is not that we are always sinning and confessing, just like it isn't that Christ is always being sacrificed. John is obviously using present tense as I have described, as "possession in the mind."

John so affectionately says, "my dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin." John continues in 2:2, "But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world." Again, "is the atoning sacrifice" is present tense also even though Jesus isn't presently being sacrificed (just like we aren't presently confessing and sinning). John is truly speaking of past facts that we know of presently.

It comes down to this. We must admit, in the present, that we know we have sinned. If we claim to never have sinned, we are lying. We all know we have sinned at some point in the past. At the same time, we must not sin any longer. We must stop committing the sin. If we do sin, we have Christ who is (present tense) our sacrifice. He always stands ready to forgive, if we repent. At the same time, that is not an excuse to sin.

John continues driving the point even deeper in 2:3. "We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands. The man who says, 'I know him,' but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But if anyone obeys his word, God's love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did." We must walk as Jesus did. "We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin." (1 John 5:18)

That is as clear as it gets. The only person who can perhaps say something more clearly is Christ Himself: "Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect." (Matthew 5:48).

You are assuming that Christians always sin. That is an assumption that will do nothing for you but help you justify sin (and potentially bring you to hell if you actually justify sin with that belief). We must walk as Christ did. John says this in his letter. We must not sin. Eternal life with God starts here on earth... literally. Love God, and love your neighbor as yourself. Do it with a pure conscience. (1 Tim. 1:5) You can do it. You must do it.

Read more at http://www.acts420.com

God's grace and peace to you in abundance,
Jason

 

[HankD]

We must obey God, and all His commands boil down to two: love God and love your neighbor. Do everything out of love. We *must* do this. As far as laws from our leaders (speed limits and such), as I showed from Scripture above, we do not necessarily have to obey these if they forbid something that God's word allows. Christ specifically says we should pay taxes. Beyond that, he allowed his disciples to break other laws simply because they forbade something that God allowed.

You showed no such thing from the Scriptures but an expositition of double-talk that we don't have to obey the speed limit and other laws of our government. You have done what many law-breakers do (I once worked for a law enforcement agency) and that is try to cover up your offense when it is brought to light.

You mention the law of love. Almost every traffic law on the books is for our protection and actually from God Himself. Please show me where in the Scriptures I can put the lives of others in danger by breaking the governmental ordinances of man.

Let me quote the Scriptures again to you:

Romans 13
1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God:and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.​

1 Peter 2
13 Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme;
14 Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well.
15 For so is the will of God, that with well doing ye may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men:
16 As free, and not using your liberty for a cloke of maliciousness, but as the servants of God.

In effect you are saying that when you break these ordinances of man (which according to the Scripture are of God) "I have not sinned".

Try giving the police officer that excuse ("but officer the Scriptures allow me to break the traffic laws if I want to do so") when he pulls you over.

Romans 13

3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
5 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.​

jygf77 I believe you have come dangerously close to mocking God by saying we don't have to obey the ordinances of man. This would be true if it meant breaking the law of God. However traffic laws are meant to protect life.​

Don't you see what you are doing?
You are redefining sin to exclude those which you yourself perhaps commit in order to support the presumption of your sinlessness while here on earth.​

In your own words:​

Anyone can quote one verse out of context to 'prove' their belief. Roman Catholics have done it in the past with 'You must eat my flesh and drink my blood to have eternal life.' Protestants have done it in the past with 'anyone who believes in me has eternal life.' And you're doing it now

.​

HankD.​

 

[kyredneck]

..... The only person who can perhaps say something more clearly is Christ Himself: "Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect." (Matthew 5:48). .....

......and the ONLY person who can do the perfecting is Christ Himself:

For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. Heb 10:14

Be aware; the Sermon on the Mount is an exposition of the law given by the Author of the law to the recipients of the law showing the spirituality of the law to those who thought they could keep the law.

 

[saturneptune]

The longer this guy is given a response, the longer he will linger. It is obvious he is playing games. This is not just a difference of opinion, this is false doctrine.

 

[Tom Butler]

I hope the BB members will check out Jason's website.

His salvation testimony sounds just fine. Apparently, though, his mouth didn't get as clean as his heart.

And wait until he posts his view that premarital sex is not a sin. Boy, the fur will fly then.

This brother has enough provocative beliefs to keep us busy long after winman and skandelon exhaust their Calvinist-bashing threads.

 

[kyredneck]

The longer this guy is given a response, the longer he will linger. It is obvious he is playing games. This is not just a difference of opinion, this is false doctrine.

...This brother has enough provocative beliefs to keep us busy long after winman and skandelon exhaust their Calvinist-bashing threads.

10-4 :thumbs:

 

[jygf77]

I hope the BB members will check out Jason's website.

His salvation testimony sounds just fine. Apparently, though, his mouth didn't get as clean as his heart.

And wait until he posts his view that premarital sex is not a sin. Boy, the fur will fly then.

This brother has enough provocative beliefs to keep us busy long after winman and skandelon exhaust their Calvinist-bashing threads.

What language of mine exactly are you saying makes my mouth "dirty." Is it because I said "hell" outside of the context of eternal torment. Do you not realize that word for hell in Jesus' day was very commonly used way outside of the context of religion and punishment? It meant "the dump", and I'm sure people used it in all kinds of contexts.

If not that word, what word are you saying has made my mouth "dirty". Whose rules do you follow, man's or God's? You know, Jesus once was called dirty too, because he didn't wash his hands according to tradition. He didn't speak according to tradition either, and that got him in trouble also. ... in trouble with the very people who claimed to (and were supposed to) know the Bible the most.

 

[annsni]

What language of mine exactly are you saying makes my mouth "dirty." Is it because I said "hell" outside of the context of eternal torment. Do you not realize that word for hell in Jesus' day was very commonly used way outside of the context of religion and punishment? It meant "the dump", and I'm sure people used it in all kinds of contexts.

If not that word, what word are you saying has made my mouth "dirty". Whose rules do you follow, man's or God's? You know, Jesus once was called dirty too, because he didn't wash his hands according to tradition. He didn't speak according to tradition either, and that got him in trouble also. ... in trouble with the very people who claimed to (and were supposed to) know the Bible the most.

I do believe he was speaking of you using vulgar language for our culture.

Ephesians 4:29 says, “Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen.” 1 Peter 3:10 declares, “For, whoever would love life and see good days must keep his tongue from evil and his lips from deceitful speech.” James 3:9-12 summarizes the issue: “With the tongue we praise our Lord and Father, and with it we curse men, who have been made in God’s likeness. Out of the same mouth come praise and cursing. My brothers, this should not be. Can both fresh water and salt water flow from the same spring? My brothers, can a fig tree bear olives, or a grapevine bear figs? Neither can a salt spring produce fresh water.”

Your language on your site made it one that was unwholesome to read and if you think that you live sinlessly while using vulgarity, you have quite a bit of learning to do.

 

[jygf77]

You can quote Romans 13 and 1 Peter 2 all day if you want. I can write out a passage here just as easily.

Matthew 23:12 - "The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat. So you must obey them and do everything they tell you."

Nonetheless, in Matthew 12 Jesus allowed his disciples to pick and eat grain on the sabbath with these leaders they were told to "obey everything" from insisting they were breaking the law and should stop. When you interpret the command to "obey authorities over you in everything" literally, then you are interpreting it much differently than Christ obviously meant it - and much differently than the disciples obviously interpreted it. This is obvious from Matthew 23 and 12.

I am not dangerously close to mocking God, as you say. You simply don't believe Christ's interpretation of His own Words! And Romans 13:4 only proves my original point even moreso. The government bears the sword to punish "him that doeth evil." When the government punishes him that has done no evil, the government errs and we need not obey them.

And no sir. I am not redefining sin in order to exclude the things I do. You don't even know what I do or how I live! On top of that, I am defining sin only by what Scripture says is sinful. That's how we should all define it.

Here's a little sequence of question I like to ask your type of people, the type that apparently thinks it is a sin to break any law (and therefore that we should obey all laws). Each question has a *(n) after it, where n is the question number. Please answer the questions in your reply

Let's assume your city made an ordinance where you were not allowed to read your bible on Tuesdays between 3:15pm and 3:45pm. There have been laws in this that have been almost that random and ridiculous. So just assume, for the sake of argument, that was the law. You could read at any other time, just not between 3:15pm and 3:45pm on Tuesdays. Would you be sinning by reading the Scripture at 3:30pm on a Tuesday, since it is illegal? (*1)

Now lets assume the same law, with the same time limitations, except the activity it bands on Tuesdays between 3:15pm and 3:45pm is slicing tomatoes. Would you be sinning by slicing tomatoes at 3:30pm on a Tuesday, since it is illegal? (*2)

Now lets assume the same law, with the same time limitations, except the activity it bands on Tuesdays between 3:15pm and 3:45pm is walking through a field while picking heads of grain to eat. Would you be sinning by picking grain at the wrong time (as the disciples did), in this case at 3:30pm on a Tuesday, since it is illegal? (*3)

Thank you for the discussion, Hank. I love you, and I mean no offense to you or your beliefs. Scripture tells us to teach one another, and to correct one another... and I suspect you and I are both motivated by love for God and neighbor, so I thank you for listening and talking.

God's peace to you,
Jason

You showed no such thing from the Scriptures but an expositition of double-talk that we don't have to obey the speed limit and other laws of our government. You have done what many law-breakers do (I once worked for a law enforcement agency) and that is try to cover up your offense when it is brought to light.

You mention the law of love. Almost every traffic law on the books is for our protection and actually from God Himself. Please show me where in the Scriptures I can put the lives of others in danger by breaking the governmental ordinances of man.

Let me quote the Scriptures again to you:

Romans 13
1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God:and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.​

1 Peter 2
13 Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme;
14 Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well.
15 For so is the will of God, that with well doing ye may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men:
16 As free, and not using your liberty for a cloke of maliciousness, but as the servants of God.

In effect you are saying that when you break these ordinances of man (which according to the Scripture are of God) "I have not sinned".

Try giving the police officer that excuse ("but officer the Scriptures allow me to break the traffic laws if I want to do so") when he pulls you over.

Romans 13

3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
5 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.​

jygf77 I believe you have come dangerously close to mocking God by saying we don't have to obey the ordinances of man. This would be true if it meant breaking the law of God. However traffic laws are meant to protect life.​

Don't you see what you are doing?
You are redefining sin to exclude those which you yourself perhaps commit in order to support the presumption of your sinlessness while here on earth.​

In your own words:​

.​

HankD.​

 

[jygf77]

Many interpret the original word for "unwholesome talk" or "filthy language" to mean "false doctrines." Others interpret to mean "slanderous language, that which harms others." The interpretation that it means "those words that some in a culture find offensive" is very recent and not very likely accurate.

For starters, even in one culture (this one for instance), different words have a ton of different groups of people that are offended by them. We can all think of words that one group of people might be okay with, and other words that another group might not be okay with. They are all different. Until you actually know what does or does not offend, there is no way to obey that command (if the command is to not use words that some groups of people in a culture finds offensive).

Indeed, there are some cultures that get offended if you *don't* use the word for "garbage dump" (hell) outside of the context of religion, because they'll think you're being condescending and judging them.

If you think using the word that meant "garbage dump" in Jesus' day (hell) outside of the context of religion is a sin, you have some serious flaws in the method you use to define what is sin and what isn't. Jesus Himself, and everyone in that culture, used the word for hell (garbage dump) outside of the context of religion all the time. Whether they used it in slang or not, no one knows... but of course they were free to, just as we are free to say "this video game is no fun, its garbage."

peace of Christ to you,
Jason

I do believe he was speaking of you using vulgar language for our culture.

Ephesians 4:29 says, “Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen.” 1 Peter 3:10 declares, “For, whoever would love life and see good days must keep his tongue from evil and his lips from deceitful speech.” James 3:9-12 summarizes the issue: “With the tongue we praise our Lord and Father, and with it we curse men, who have been made in God’s likeness. Out of the same mouth come praise and cursing. My brothers, this should not be. Can both fresh water and salt water flow from the same spring? My brothers, can a fig tree bear olives, or a grapevine bear figs? Neither can a salt spring produce fresh water.”

Your language on your site made it one that was unwholesome to read and if you think that you live sinlessly while using vulgarity, you have quite a bit of learning to do.