I think most Baptists have Romans 7 totally wrong

[saturneptune]

How many more posts of this guy does it take to convince everyone they are being played like a fiddle?

 

[HankD]

You can quote Romans 13 and 1 Peter 2 all day if you want. I can write out a passage here just as easily.

Matthew 23:12 - "The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat. So you must obey them and do everything they tell you."

Nonetheless, in Matthew 12 Jesus allowed his disciples to pick and eat grain on the sabbath with these leaders they were told to "obey everything" from insisting they were breaking the law and should stop. When you interpret the command to "obey authorities over you in everything" literally, then you are interpreting it much differently than Christ obviously meant it - and much differently than the disciples obviously interpreted it. This is obvious from Matthew 23 and 12.

Well, He also said this

Mark 7

10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.​

And I will repeat that word of God as many times as it takes for folks to repent and keep it.​

1 Peter 2
13 Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme;
14 Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well.
15 For so is the will of God, that with well doing ye may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men:
16 As free, and not using your liberty for a cloke of maliciousness, but as the servants of God.​

Fabricating a very unlikely ordinance about the reading of Scripture which you did is an impossibility today in this nation. Even if it did happen then this would indeed be a legitimate occassion for "it is better to obey God rather than man".​

However I repeat, the traffic ordinances and many many others have been made to save life.​

If and when someone breaks the speed laws in a school zone they become a threat to the life of children and will be fined and/or arrested.

Most traffic deaths are a result of alcohol consumption and/or excessive speed.

So please do not insult our intelligence by telling us it's OK to break the traffic ordinances and possibly kill someone because Jesus allowed His disciples to pick and eat grain on the Sabbath. Even the unregenerate have enough sense to know better than that.

Is it good to save life or evil? Jesus asked the same question of the pharisees.

HankD

 

[jygf77]

I see you have refused to answer not only the 1st, but indeed all 3 of the questions I posed you. I think that is obviously because if you did answer them, then your answers would show the impossibility of maintaining the position you are attempting to defend. I say this because I have posed that question to many people who hold to your beliefs, and not a single one of them has ever answered it.

Again, you can cite 1 Peter all day and I'll just cite Mat 23 (obey "everything" they tell you to do) along with Matthew 12 (allowing his disciples to pick and eat that which it was unlawful to pick and eat at that time). Obviously "obey everything they say" or "obey all their laws" was not meant literally by Christ.

You are interpreting the command to "obey everything" authorities tell us to do in a way that is very much different from how Christ meant it and from how the disciples interpreted it. That much is obvious. If you're more comfortable following your own interpretations of Christ's commands instead of the Apostle's interpretations, that is a problem you're going to have to eventually deal with. I can't make you follow Scripture, you have to choose to do it yourself.

I never said people should break speeding laws. I said people need to avoid doing evil. The only laws Scripture commands us to obey are those tax laws and those that it would be evil to break. Driving at an excessive speed, knowingly putting lives at great risk, is evil. But I would never judge someone as a "sinner" for driving 26mph in a 25mph zone. That is completely un-biblical, and obviously completely out of line with what Christ meant when he told us to obey the authorities. Each man has his conscience, and love comes from a sincere conscience and a pure heart.

God bless you,

Well, He also said this

Mark 7

10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.​

And I will repeat that word of God as many times as it takes for folks to repent and keep it.​

1 Peter 2
13 Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme;
14 Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well.
15 For so is the will of God, that with well doing ye may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men:
16 As free, and not using your liberty for a cloke of maliciousness, but as the servants of God.​

Fabricating a very unlikely ordinance about the reading of Scripture which you did is an impossibility today in this nation. Even if it did happen then this would indeed be a legitimate occassion for "it is better to obey God rather than man".​

However I repeat, the traffic ordinances and many many others have been made to save life.​

If and when someone breaks the speed laws in a school zone they become a threat to the life of children and will be fined and/or arrested.

Most traffic deaths are a result of alcohol consumption and/or excessive speed.

So please do not insult our intelligence by telling us it's OK to break the traffic ordinances and possibly kill someone because Jesus allowed His disciples to pick and eat grain on the Sabbath. Even the unregenerate have enough sense to know better than that.

Is it good to save life or evil? Jesus asked the same question of the pharisees.

HankD

 

[saturneptune]

I see you have refused to answer not only the 1st, but indeed all 3 of the questions I posed you. I think that is obviously because if you did answer them, then your answers would show the impossibility of maintaining the position you are attempting to defend. I say this because I have posed that question to many people who hold to your beliefs, and not a single one of them has ever answered it.

Again, you can cite 1 Peter all day and I'll just cite Mat 23 (obey "everything" they tell you to do) along with Matthew 12 (allowing his disciples to pick and eat that which it was unlawful to pick and eat at that time). Obviously "obey everything they say" or "obey all their laws" was not meant literally by Christ.

You are interpreting the command to "obey everything" authorities tell us to do in a way that is very much different from how Christ meant it and from how the disciples interpreted it. That much is obvious. If you're more comfortable following your own interpretations of Christ's commands instead of the Apostle's interpretations, that is a problem you're going to have to eventually deal with. I can't make you follow Scripture, you have to choose to do it yourself.

I never said people should break speeding laws. I said people need to avoid doing evil. The only laws Scripture commands us to obey are those tax laws and those that it would be evil to break. Driving at an excessive speed, knowingly putting lives at great risk, is evil. But I would never judge someone as a "sinner" for driving 26mph in a 25mph zone. That is completely un-biblical, and obviously completely out of line with what Christ meant when he told us to obey the authorities. Each man has his conscience, and love comes from a sincere conscience and a pure heart.

God bless you,

It is time for you to move on. This whole thread is a mockery of the Gospel, Scripture, and respect for other posters.

 

[Tom Butler]

Regarding Jason's use of vulgarities on his website, I do confess that I myself have used those words before in the heat of anger or frustration or at a moment of sudden pain. I am not proud if it and I wasn't proud of it then. And I can't imagine anyone on this board trying to justify it.

But were I to sit down at a keyboard to explain my theological viewpoint or to point someone to the Savior, I can't imagine that I would deliberately write those words.

If they were inserted for shock value, it worked, I was. Not so much at the words, which I hear regularly without clutching my chest, but at the context in which they were used.

I don't want to come across as some goody two-shoes. I definitely am not.

 

[jygf77]

My dear brother, I have been nothing but respectful in all of my conversations here. Issues of faith are sensitive topics, especially for those like us, those who take these things seriously and who try to act with sincerity in everything we do and say. Therefore, we must be gentle with one another.

"...correct, rebuke and encourage--with great patience and careful instruction." (2 Tim. 4:2-4) Please be patient with me and understand that my intent is not to offend you. Rather, I want to see to it that whichever one of us is in error is corrected. It is very important for us to speak in line with what is Truth.

- "Be devoted to one another in brotherly love. Honor one another above yourselves. (Romans 12:10) Please know that everything I've said here has been motivated by a love for you. Sincerely.

If you don't like the way I used the English translation of the Greek word for garbage dump on my website, I am sorry that you've been offended. Please know I mean no offense, and please know it is not a sin to use the word 'garbage dump' outside of a religious context. If you don't believe me, I suggest staying away from my website because, on my own property, I speak in line with what I believe.

May God grant you peace,

It is time for you to move on. This whole thread is a mockery of the Gospel, Scripture, and respect for other posters.

 

[jygf77]

Paul used a slang word for "fecal excrement" in one of his letters to the church, a letter explaining theology and the Savior. It is now in our Bible. Do you know the book, chapter, and verse? I do. And I'd be happy to share it with you if you're interested in knowing more and more about Scripture. We all will always be able to know more about it, it is God's wonderful gift, given to equip us to do good works for all our days.

God's peace to you,

Regarding Jason's use of vulgarities on his website, I do confess that I myself have used those words before in the heat of anger or frustration or at a moment of sudden pain. I am not proud if it and I wasn't proud of it then. And I can't imagine anyone on this board trying to justify it.

But were I to sit down at a keyboard to explain my theological viewpoint or to point someone to the Savior, I can't imagine that I would deliberately write those words.

If they were inserted for shock value, it worked, I was. Not so much at the words, which I hear regularly without clutching my chest, but at the context in which they were used.

I don't want to come across as some goody two-shoes. I definitely am not.

 

[saturneptune]

Paul used a slang word for "fecal excrement" in one of his letters to the church, a letter explaining theology and the Savior. It is now in our Bible. Do you know the book, chapter, and verse? I do. And I'd be happy to share it with you if you're interested in knowing more and more about Scripture. We all will always be able to know more about it, it is God's wonderful gift, given to equip us to do good works for all our days.

God's peace to you,

Tom Butler knows more about the first chapter of Genesis than you do the entire Bible. Not only that, he lives it, as I have observed for years. I have seen his conduct when disagreeing with me over several issues within our church, open or closed communion in particular. That is how you exchange ideas and learn.

How not to do it is post the messages you have in this thread. Your nonsense goes way beyond disagreeing about doctrine or a theological issue. No one needs an invitation from you to learn more about the Scriptures or how you translate Greek when your premise is sinless perfection or the point of salvation is when one stops sinning. Neither does anyone need being told "God grant you peace" from that mindset.

You are doing nothing but baiting honest posters, and it is beyond me why they keep responding to you with novel sized posts. My words stand. It is time for you to move on.

 

[jygf77]

My dear brother saturnneptune,

I don't believe it is possible for someone like Tom (whom you praise so highly and who I'm sure has truly and honestly earned your high respect) to reach a point where someone like me cannot teach him anything. If you think so, we can simply respectfully disagree. I'm not intending to be disrespectful by offering tho share what knowledge I have. We are all here to learn and to share, hopefully.

Also, I have never said there is one point of salvation that occurs when you stopped sinning. In fact, salvation itself is a process, it cannot be said to be entirely contained in a certain point of time. Ephesians 2:8-9 refers to Christians having been saved in the past, initial salvation. 1 Corinthians 1:18 refers to Christians presently being saved, present salvation. Romans 5:9 tells Christians that they will be saved, future salvation.

What I did say was this: "We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin." The Apostle John said it before me. (1 John 5:18). To truly be a son in God's family forever, you must not sin. Being "born again" is not simply when you believe.

This is what John records Christ Himself teaching us as well. For instance, see what Christ told a crowd of people who had just placed faith in Him while he was teaching in John 8:30-35. He told them that they now had to hold to his teachings in the future to truly be set free from sin. He said if any of them sinned, he would not be in God's family. Then He said if any of them stayed away from sin, that one would be a son or a daughter of God and be with God forever. Read it yourself. John 8:30-35. That, of course is what the Bible is here for!

If what Christ said is actually true, then the types of things Christ told new believers is *not at all* like what people like Billy Graham tell new believers. I'm not saying Billy is evil. I'm not saying Billy himself is not born again. He may be, and he seems from the outside to live a righteous life. You may be, although I don't know you. I think only God and his child can know the depths of the heart. All I'm saying is this: Billy Graham and others are mislead about how to get to heaven, and they are teaching others a gospel that is only partially true.

One day, either before you fall asleep or after, you and Billy and all the rest are going to realize that teaching about how to gain eternal life ("believe in Jesus and you'll go to heaven"), if not explained accurately, is a total distortion of the Bible. To say something like that out of context will terribly mislead people. In the same passage Jesus says that in, He also says, "unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you cannot have eternal life." Jesus has said all kinds of things in the Bible that are utterly ridiculous (and perhaps even harmful) if you rip them out of their context. But many people rip one or both of those passages out of context on a regular basis, and teach them to others like that!

Those false doctrines have great potential to get Christians to believe they can have eternal life while sinning. This is the sad state of Christianity today. Scripture warned us it would happen, we should not be surprised.

May God grant us all wisdom and peace,
Jason

Tom Butler knows more about the first chapter of Genesis than you do the entire Bible. Not only that, he lives it, as I have observed for years. I have seen his conduct when disagreeing with me over several issues within our church, open or closed communion in particular. That is how you exchange ideas and learn.

How not to do it is post the messages you have in this thread. Your nonsense goes way beyond disagreeing about doctrine or a theological issue. No one needs an invitation from you to learn more about the Scriptures or how you translate Greek when your premise is sinless perfection or the point of salvation is when one stops sinning. Neither does anyone need being told "God grant you peace" from that mindset.

You are doing nothing but baiting honest posters, and it is beyond me why they keep responding to you with novel sized posts. My words stand. It is time for you to move on.

 

[HankD]

Here are the questions Jason posed to me which he claimed I did not answer.

I did answer them generally but apparently he needs specifics.

Here's a little sequence of question I like to ask your type of people, the type that apparently thinks it is a sin to break any law (and therefore that we should obey all laws). Each question has a *(n) after it, where n is the question number. Please answer the questions in your reply

Let's assume your city made an ordinance where you were not allowed to read your bible on Tuesdays between 3:15pm and 3:45pm. There have been laws in this that have been almost that random and ridiculous. So just assume, for the sake of argument, that was the law. You could read at any other time, just not between 3:15pm and 3:45pm on Tuesdays. Would you be sinning by reading the Scripture at 3:30pm on a Tuesday, since it is illegal? (*1)

This is what is called a "straw man" question. People do this when they ask e.g. "can God build a mountain that even He cannot climb" in an attempt to lay down a basis to deny the Scripture by presenting an absurdity and then building a case based upon that absurdity such as an ordinance of slicing tomatoes on Tuesday from 3:15 to 3:45.

Furthermore such an ordinance does not exist where I live and I doubt that it exists anywhere in the entire world. Places which forbid the reading of the Bible, forbid it 24/7.

However if this ordinance did exist against reading the Bible for even one second, this prohibition would prove at least a disdain or hatred for God's word. I would feel no compulsion about breaking it because it is better to obey God rather than man.

Now lets assume the same law, with the same time limitations, except the activity it bands on Tuesdays between 3:15pm and 3:45pm is slicing tomatoes. Would you be sinning by slicing tomatoes at 3:30pm on a Tuesday, since it is illegal? (*2)

Yes.

Now lets assume the same law, with the same time limitations, except the activity it bands on Tuesdays between 3:15pm and 3:45pm is walking through a field while picking heads of grain to eat. Would you be sinning by picking grain at the wrong time (as the disciples did), in this case at 3:30pm on a Tuesday, since it is illegal? (*3)

Yes. First, Christ is not here in His mortal flesh to give us His permission to pick the grain. Second Tuesday is not the Sabbath which is the point that Christ is the Lord of the Sabbath and the Sabbath rest as well. Third, He has left the further instruction of faith practices to His apostles inspired by the Holy Ghost to instruct us in the faith (and I will continue to repeat them until folks repent of their evil and do as He has told us through the inspiration of the Holy Ghost): Specifically to obey the law of the land in which you live unless it violates the requirements of God.

Let me quote the Scriptures again to you which you seem to disdain:

Romans 13
1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God:and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.​

1 Peter 2
13 Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme;
14 Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well.
15 For so is the will of God, that with well doing ye may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men:
16 As free, and not using your liberty for a cloke of maliciousness, but as the servants of God.

If the ordinance says 20MPH in a school zone (that's what it is in WA State) and when one drives 21MPH then the law has been broken plain and simple. There are some things in the NT Scripture which are "legalistic" because they are indeed "legal" or "illegal" even under grace (such are the laws pertaining to marriage which God expects us to keep) and the Scriptures above which tell us to obey every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake.

Slicing tomatos on Tuesday from 3:15 to 3:45 has nothing to do with oridinances which are made by the government to protect our lives and the lives of our children and to make them a moral equivalent is absurd and nonsensical.

Now, there may very well be a consequence of the violation of these laws which go against the requirements of God such as the consequences of the Roman citizens who were Christian suffered.

There was a Roman law under Nero which required he be officially worshipped once a year. Those found guilty of repeated violation of this law (Christian or non-Christian) were put to death.

The method by which every person who claims sinlessness practices is to redefine or excuse oneself from the Scripture through a rational usually based upon an absurdity rather than being honest with God and admitting their wrong doing.

Indeed, you start with an absurdity and manipulate that absurdity until you end up with the rejection of the Scripture which instruct us to keep the ordinances of the government. Now I would agree that if the ordinance forbids what God requires, then yes we are free in our faith to break it as the apostles did when they were forbidden to preach the gospel.

However if an evildoer (such as those who endanger the lives of others and our children) whether Christian or not then they sin when they break that law.

And yes, many years ago I was reproved in my conscience of this sin in my life because of these Scriptures and have repented and keep the traffic ordinances. I would slow down to 25MPH (rather than 20MPH) in a school zone but one day the Spirit reproved me via the Scripture through my conscience and now I keep that law in the school zone as well as the speed limits on the highways. Not being perfectly sinless, I inadvertantly (and on ocassion even willfully) violate them although this willful violation is now rare in my life, especially in the school zones.

I am sure many (maybe even most) Chritians here on the BB practice daily self examination to see if we are walking in faith, then admit and cease from those sins revealed to us by the Spirit of God.

Christians can and have committed terrible sins for which Christ gives opportunity of repentance and restoration:

Revelation 2

20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.
21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.
22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.​

I agree that nowhere in the Scripture does it say that it is normal for a Christian to sin, in fact we are admonished by our Father in heaven not to sin:

1 John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not.

However

if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:​

The word "advocate" is another word for "lawyer". It is a crime for a Christian to commit a willful sin, however we have a lawyer, Jesus Christ the righteous and He has never lost a case yet for those who appeal to Him in truth.​

For those who make an unrepentant practice of sin, God will judge them, not you or I.

HankD

 

[Tom Butler]

Paul used a slang word for "fecal excrement" in one of his letters to the church, a letter explaining theology and the Savior. It is now in our Bible. Do you know the book, chapter, and verse? I do. And I'd be happy to share it with you if you're interested in knowing more and more about Scripture. We all will always be able to know more about it, it is God's wonderful gift, given to equip us to do good works for all our days.

God's peace to you,

I think the cultural context determines whether a word is acceptable or not. None of us cringes at the gratuitous use of "heck," "darn it," for we recognize that they are acceptable substitutes for a more descriptive word or phrase.

If we say something is "a crock," nobody gets offended, but it's a reasonable substitute for a more offensive phrase.

Cultural context, brother. I remember as a child, we were at a service station getting gas, when a man in a group nearby used some ugly words. My dad got out of the car, walked over to the men and said, "guys, please watch your language, there's a lady present, and so are my children."

The men looked at the car, and immediately apologized. "Oh, we're sorry, we didn't know a lady was present."

I'm sure that had they cited the scriptures as justification, my dad would have said, "Oh. Well, never mind, then."

 

[Winman]

What word are you speaking of, dung? That is a perfectly proper word as manure is. Look it up in a dictionary, it is neither slang or profanity.

I also looked at your website. You say sex outside marriage is not sin. You are in great error.

1 Cor 6:18 Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.

You may believe yourself to know and understand the scriptures, but you show you do not.

 

[jygf77]

First, Christ is not here in His mortal flesh to give us His permission to pick the grain.

What we have here, my brother, is a rule, created by you, that we can only disobey a law when Christ, in the flesh and in front of us, has given us permission. This is a rule you have made up. It is found nowhere in Scripture. What's more, Scripture seems to speak contrary to this. The disciples picked grain unlawfully on the Sabbath before Christ gave them permission. Christ defended them after they were accused of sinning, but they had already done the act.

Second Tuesday is not the Sabbath which is the point that Christ is the Lord of the Sabbath and the Sabbath rest as well.

The Sabbath is nothing. It is as valuable to a Christian as circumcision. That is the Old Testament Law. We are no longer commanded to rest on the Sabbath any more than we are commanded to slaughter goats, cut off our foreskins, or anything else. Christ ended the Old Law. What's more, see colossions 2:16, "Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to... a Sabbath day."

Slicing tomatos on Tuesday from 3:15 to 3:45 has nothing to do with ordinances which are made by the government to protect our lives and the lives of our children and to make them a moral equivalent is absurd and nonsensical.

Now you are judging laws with your own conscience to decide if they are nonsensical. There are many laws that are just as absurd that are on the books. Whether or not they get enforced, or how often they get enforced, is another question. But they are there, and we are commanded to follow them by the legal system.

The fact is, there are times when we can break laws. Even though Christ said "obey everything they tell you" (Mat. 23), his disciples understood what he meant and had no problem breaking the law when breaking it did not harm anyone. (Mat. 12). Likewise, these passages you cite that say we must "obey" the government are no different. Romans 13:4 says the government is meant to punish those who "do evil." The only laws we have to obey are laws that keep us from doing evil and laws that command payment of taxes to keep the government running.

obey the law of the land in which you live unless it violates the requirements of God.

Here we have another rule created by you. The rule "you must obey unless obeying means you would have to sin" is nowhere in Scripture. It just is not there. Period. You have made it up, or you have learned it by tradition from someone else who made it up. That rule is not in the Bible.

Scripture does not tell us when we can and can't disobey the authorities. the only guidance it gives us is Matthew 23 and 12 where the disciples picked some grain because they were hungry. That is relatively unclear, so I would agree this is a disputable matter that righteous Christians can disagree on. My point is that they would not have been sinning if they had obeyed the law. Nonetheless, they disobeyed it. These are our teachers, the disciples in Scripture.

Therefore, you can't tell me I'm sinning if I break a law that my conscience, guided by the Holy Spirit, tells me is absurd and has nothing to do with good and evil.If you think 21mph in a 20 is a sin, then by all means you need to obey your conscience. That is what Romans 14:14 means. "But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for him it is unclean." We all have to follow our conscience, because if we honestly think something is a sin (even if it isn't a sin) and we do it anyway, we prove that we will disobey God when we want to.

So by all means follow your conscience. But don't tell other people to follow *your* conscience. They have to follow their own conscience, since obviously Scripture nowhere tells us the *exact* situations in which laws can be broken. Therefore, this is a "disputable matter" where honest, sincere, knowledgable Christians can disagree. So go by your conscience, and let other's do the same. Romans 14:1 says we must not pass judgment on disputable matters. I don't judge you for your beliefs on this. However, you do judge me (or so it seems).

peace,

 

[jygf77]

Again, what many English Bible's translate "filthy language" is actually probably referring to false doctrines, not "cuss" words. Even in any one culture all sorts of different people have different definitions of what is a "cuss" word or a "dirty" word or a "bad" word to say. We don't let the culture define for us what is sin, we let God do it. We don't have to follow the FCC's guidelines or anyone else's but God's.

If you think it is not possible that "filthy language" is perhaps somewhat mistranslated in many English Bible's, may I direct your attention to Isaiah 64:6. In many English Bibles the word there is intentionally mistranslated "filthy rags" because the word actually means, get this, "menstrual rags". I'm not kidding. Look it up for yourself. The Hebrew is "ed." Translators are totally unreliable. Many are governed by their own traditional rules of etiquette and beliefs instead of being governed by a desire to be as faithful to the original language as possible. We've got to read Scripture in the original language, or find someone who is able to and seek to learn from them. That is the only way to truly analyze Scripture to find the Truth.

Nowhere does Scripture command us to abstain from anything and everything that might offend someone somewhere in the culture. Romans 14 says, "It is good neither to eat meat nor drink wine nor do anything by which your brother stumbles or is offended or is made weak. (Romans 14:21) This is another place where a lot of Christians are confused or deceived. Many think that means that it is best to abstain from wine or cussing because there are people out there somewhere that are somehow offended by it. That is not at all what Paul is saying. In fact, Paul doesn't limit this to alcohol (he includes meat "or anything else" that offends). That means the many Christians that avoid alcohol or cussing "because it offends people" should be avoiding desserts, T.V., expensive cars, junkie cars, plastic bottles, poodles, and everything in the world that offends anyone at all.

Paul's point has to do with when we *know*, specifically, about a specific person in our presence. If we know that specific brother of ours has told us He thinks drinking (or anything else) is a sin we should abstain in front of him. But that is not all we should do. Most importantly (and the part many Christians leave out) is that, in these types of situations, we are to correct our mistaken brother.

In Romans 14 Paul clearly says that such brother's faiths are "weak." Yes. Sorry if that offends you. However, when a you think something is a sin that is not a sin, that means you have a weak faith. Read Romans 14. That is what it says.

If we love our brother, we should strengthen him in the faith. For instance, Paul says "let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths." (Colossians 2:16) We correct our our brothers when we see a weakness in their faith because we love them, just as God loves and corrects us.

What Paul is saying is that if our brother refuses our correction (he still thinks whatever is a sin), and we still do it in front of him, then we are encouraging him to sin. This is because "if anyone regards something as unclean, then for him it is unclean." (Romans 14:14) If, in his heart, our brother sincerely thought doing the thing is a sin against God, then if he did anyway he would be doing something out of hate for God, not out of love for God.

Therefore, if a brother tells us he thinks something pure is a sin, we are not to flaunt it in front of him... but, most importantly, we are instead supposed to correct Him. I am not flaunting the slang language here that people here have told me is "bad". People have told me it offends them, and I am not using it. It is on my website... because that is like my own house. I will speak freely in my own house. If non-religious uses of slang words for excrement and garbage dumps offend you, don't go to my website. Also, know that you are wrong... those words are not in any way, shape, or form inherently "sinful."

May the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace as you trust in him, so that you may overflow with hope by the power of the Holy Spirit.

I think the cultural context determines whether a word is acceptable or not. None of us cringes at the gratuitous use of "heck," "darn it," for we recognize that they are acceptable substitutes for a more descriptive word or phrase.

If we say something is "a crock," nobody gets offended, but it's a reasonable substitute for a more offensive phrase.

Cultural context, brother. I remember as a child, we were at a service station getting gas, when a man in a group nearby used some ugly words. My dad got out of the car, walked over to the men and said, "guys, please watch your language, there's a lady present, and so are my children."

The men looked at the car, and immediately apologized. "Oh, we're sorry, we didn't know a lady was present."

I'm sure that had they cited the scriptures as justification, my dad would have said, "Oh. Well, never mind, then."

 

[Winman]

Scripture does not tell us when we can and can't disobey the authorities. the only guidance it gives us is Matthew 23 and 12 where the disciples picked some grain because they were hungry. That is relatively unclear, so I would agree this is a disputable matter that righteous Christians can disagree on. My point is that they would not have been sinning if they had obeyed the law. Nonetheless, they disobeyed it. These are our teachers, the disciples in Scripture.

Again, you show you do not understand the scriptures. We are told to obey the authorities.

1 Pet 2:13 Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme;
14 Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well.
15 For so is the will of God, that with well doing ye may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men:
16 As free, and not using your liberty for a cloke of maliciousness, but as the servants of God.

Do you stop at red lights or stop signs? I hope you do or else you are going to kill an innocent person. You can't just decide what is right or wrong, the laws are meant to protect people.

Now that said, a Christian should not obey a law that goes against the commandments of God. If I were in a Muslim land and the authorities commanded me to deny Christ, I would not obey.

When the disciples picked corn or grain, they did so because they were very hungry. The passage almost suggests they were starving. They were not working, bringing in the harvest, but simply eating out of neccessity. It was not wrong to do good on the Sabbath. Now, I agree that we are not under Mosiac law.

 

[Trotter]

I had a long post all put together, but saw the futility of the whole thing.

Jason, you are trying to live a hyper-legalistic life of works. What you need is a good dose of the grace of God. If you actually study what John wrote, when he said that a Christian would not sin it means "will not continue to habitually sin". It does not mean that suddnely we become exactly like the sinless Son of God. Paul continued to sin and was distraught over it, but even he wrote of the forgiveness of God.

If this is what is being taught in your church I am very thankful that I am not a part of it. I have the peace of God in my heart and know, when I do sin and fall short of the holiness of God (I strive not to do so, but it does happen), I have God's grace and forgiveness. If when I sin I am suddenly unsaved or was never saved at all I would walk around scared to death that I would sin and go straight to hell. Since worry is a sin I could never be saved!

I wish you well, but most of all I pray that you meet the grace of Jesus Christ and stop trying to earn your way. God's measuring stick is Himself and you can never measure up to that. It is only through God's grace and the blood of Christ that we have hope... not the things we do or try not to do. Your very site stands in condemnation of the very things you espouse and it will remain (via archives.org and Google) long after you are gone.

 

[jygf77]

Don't trust your english Bible just because it says "dung." Look to the original language, or ask someone who knows it to tell you what that word meant to people back then. It was a "slang" word for dung, it wasn't the technical word.

If you think it is not possible that "dung" is perhaps somewhat mistranslated in many English Bible's, may I direct your attention to Isaiah 64:6. In many English Bibles the word there is intentionally mistranslated "filthy rags" because the word actually means, get this, "menstrual rags". I'm not kidding. Look it up for yourself. The Hebrew is "ed." Translators are totally unreliable. Many are governed by their own traditional rules of etiquette and beliefs instead of being governed by a desire to be as faithful to the original language as possible. We've got to read Scripture in the original language, or find someone who is able to and seek to learn from them. That is the only way to truly analyze Scripture to find the Truth.

As far as premarital sex, you obviously didn't read the entire page on my website. I'm not here to defend my views on that topic, I'm here to talk about the sinful nature and Romans 7. That is why I started this post. I'm not discussing my views on sex with you. If you want to know about "fornication" (and how that translation of the underlying word is similar to the mistranslation I noted above from Isaiah) just read the entire page (and the discussion) on the page in my website you are referring to. Then e-mail me privately if you want to talk more.

I want to keep this thread on topic please. Thank you my dear brother.

What word are you speaking of, dung? That is a perfectly proper word as manure is. Look it up in a dictionary, it is neither slang or profanity.

I also looked at your website. You say sex outside marriage is not sin. You are in great error.

1 Cor 6:18 Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.

You may believe yourself to know and understand the scriptures, but you show you do not.

 

[annsni]

My dear brother, I have been nothing but respectful in all of my conversations here. Issues of faith are sensitive topics, especially for those like us, those who take these things seriously and who try to act with sincerity in everything we do and say. Therefore, we must be gentle with one another.

"...correct, rebuke and encourage--with great patience and careful instruction." (2 Tim. 4:2-4) Please be patient with me and understand that my intent is not to offend you. Rather, I want to see to it that whichever one of us is in error is corrected. It is very important for us to speak in line with what is Truth.

- "Be devoted to one another in brotherly love. Honor one another above yourselves. (Romans 12:10) Please know that everything I've said here has been motivated by a love for you. Sincerely.

If you don't like the way I used the English translation of the Greek word for garbage dump on my website, I am sorry that you've been offended. Please know I mean no offense, and please know it is not a sin to use the word 'garbage dump' outside of a religious context. If you don't believe me, I suggest staying away from my website because, on my own property, I speak in line with what I believe.

May God grant you peace,

Paul used a slang word for "fecal excrement" in one of his letters to the church, a letter explaining theology and the Savior. It is now in our Bible. Do you know the book, chapter, and verse? I do. And I'd be happy to share it with you if you're interested in knowing more and more about Scripture. We all will always be able to know more about it, it is God's wonderful gift, given to equip us to do good works for all our days.

God's peace to you,

You have offended a sister in Christ by the use of your language on your website. I find it disgusting for a believer to use those words and I find it even more disgusting for a believer to use those words on purpose in print on a website for all to see. I posted the Scripture against using offensive language - against using "unwholesome words". You apparently do not believe that those words are offensive in our modern day language and I am surprised at that. However, you might want to read the scriptures about offending a brother or sister in Christ. I'm sure I'm not the only one offended by those words.

 

[Winman]

Don't trust your english Bible just because it says "dung." Look to the original language, or ask someone who knows it to tell you what that word meant to people back then. It was a "slang" word for dung, it wasn't the technical word.

Oh, I shouldn't trust my KJV? Maybe I should become a Catholic, this was their argument against publishing the scriptures in English, the common man couldn't understand the original languages and needed to rely on them solely for interpretation.

Do you know what the harlot, the mother of harlots means?

Rev 17:1 And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:
2 With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.
3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.
4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:
5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.
6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

What you said is straight out of Catholicism.

 

[Tom Butler]

I am not flaunting the slang language here that people here have told me is "bad". People have told me it offends them, and I am not using it. It is on my website... because that is like my own house. I will speak freely in my own house. If non-religious uses of slang words for excrement and garbage dumps offend you, don't go to my website. Also, know that you are wrong... those words are not in any way, shape, or form inherently "sinful."

And I appreciate your not using that language in this forum, and your respect for the sensibilities of others.

I would point out that you invited me into your house when you listed your website URL. Your are certainly welcome to speak freely in your own house. When you asked me in, I was a little taken aback that you spoke that freely. At least, now forewarned, I can decide if want to come back.