I thought I was saved, but....

[Winman]

You did not decide to trust campbells. You are either persuaded they are trustworthy or not.

You ARE persuaded. THat is not a decision.

You do not decide to trust in gravity. You HAVE BEEN persuaded that gravity will hold you to the earth.

You did not DECIDE it would. You were persuaded it would.



Then you would have been persuaded by the news that campbells may not be trustworthy.

You are confusing ACTING which is a decision with trusting which is NOT.

You BUY the soup BECAUSE you trust it. You trust it BECAUSE you HAVE BEEN (passive) persuaded that it is trustworthy.



No, you are persuaded it is safe or you are persuaded it is not safe.

You think continuing to ride IS trusting when the fact is that you continue to ride BECAUSE you trust.

And you trust because the circumstances have persuaded you that it will hold out a while longer.

To be persuaded is a decision itself. You are selected for jury duty, you listen to the prosecution and the defense. You decide which has given the most convincing and compelling evidence and make your decision whether the defendant is guilty or not.

You act as if you cannot decide whether you will trust someone or not. You act as if your neighbor asked to borrow the car that you cannot decide for yourself whether to give them the keys or not.

You might believe the person is completely honest and dependable, but accidents happen and it is not a good policy to loan someone your car and decide not to give them your keys.

 

[Winman]

Let me ask you Luke, your new neighbor asks to borrow the car.

If you do not give him the keys, can you say you trusted him?

We are commanded to trust Jesus, to believe ON him.

Believing a set of facts is not trust. You can believe an airplane can fly you to Chicago safely, but to trust the airplane you have to get on and risk your life.

 

[Luke2427]

To be persuaded is a decision itself. You are selected for jury duty, you listen to the prosecution and the defense. You decide which has given the most convincing and compelling evidence and make your decision whether the defendant is guilty or not.

You act as if you cannot decide whether you will trust someone or not. You act as if your neighbor asked to borrow the car that you cannot decide for yourself whether to give them the keys or not.

You might believe the person is completely honest and dependable, but accidents happen and it is not a good policy to loan someone your car and decide not to give them your keys.

To be persuaded is not to make a decision. To decide is something you do. To be persuaded is something that is done to you. In your attic go to the jury member is either persuaded by the prosecution or he is not persuaded.

 

[Yeshua1]

It is NOT a decision.

You do not DECIDE what to trust.

You are persuaded whether or not to trust something.

Do you DECIDE to trust a suspension bridge?

No. You decide whether or not to get ON the suspension bridge BASED on whether or not you TRUST it.

You trust it because you HAVE BEEN (passive- something is happening to you. It is not something that you do yourself) persuaded it is trustworthy.

Arminians like Winman teach that people are saved by grace through CHOICE.

The Bible says we are saved by grace through FAITH.

Faith is not choice. Choice is choice. Faith is faith. It is deceptive to conflate the two.

Think many see it as this:

I hear the good news about jesus, and I decide that accepting Him would be the right thing to do, so I freely accept Him as my saviour, and thus allow Him to sdave me on the basis on my decision I made to receive Christ!

 

[Winman]

To be persuaded is not to make a decision. To decide is something you do. To be persuaded is something that is done to you. In your attic go to the jury member is either persuaded by the prosecution or he is not persuaded.

Your view is refuted here every day. I can show you scripture that absolutely says faith precedes regeneration.

Jhn 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

This verse says you must first believe to be regenerated or have life. I remember a year or so ago that you admitted that is what this verse says.

Yet you have CHOSEN not to believe it. You can plainly see what it says and you completely understand what it says, and yet you decide to believe that regeneration precedes faith.

What you believe is a choice, you yourself are proof of that.

 

[North Carolina Tentmaker]

How do you know who or what I am?:smilewinkgrin:

I meant no disrespect or slur.

I simply know that you do not stand between God and any man or woman. I know that we have a direct relationship with Him not dependent on any priest or preacher. I know that we have the revelation of God given to us in his word and are not dependant on any man or woman to give us His revelation.

I know that Amy's salvation, or my salvation is known only to God and to that person.

Just as you can't know the state of someone's soul, you also don't know God's will for them. God speaks to us directly, through his word and through his spirit. The doctrine is known as the priest hood of the believer and I am sure you are familiar with it.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

How do you know who or what I am?:smilewinkgrin:

Actually no ....but I did stay at a Holiday Inn the other night. :laugh::thumbs:

 

[Luke2427]

Your view is refuted here every day. I can show you scripture that absolutely says faith precedes regeneration.

Jhn 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

This verse says you must first believe to be regenerated or have life. I remember a year or so ago that you admitted that is what this verse says.

Yet you have CHOSEN not to believe it. You can plainly see what it says and you completely understand what it says, and yet you decide to believe that regeneration precedes faith.

What you believe is a choice, you yourself are proof of that.

Yes, BELIEVING gives eternal life, not choosing.

 

[Winman]

Yes, BELIEVING gives eternal life, not choosing.

Well Luke, we will have to agree to disagree. I believe the scriptures show that believing is a choice a person can make.

Pro 1:29 For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD:

God himself said fools, simple ones, and scorners did not "choose" to fear him.

If man cannot choose to believe or not, then how can he be accountable for unbelief?

 

[North Carolina Tentmaker]

Umm.. I'm not doubting my salvation. You have misunderstood.

I think EWF was just complimenting me. He and I both know that only God knows the heart. I appreciate being seen as a Godly person tho by my friends.

I meant no disrespect to you Amy. I was just using you as an example. I am certain that your friends do see you as a Godly person. And I think you understand that means nothing when it comes to your salvation, what matters is how God sees you.

Often when people ask a question or discuss a problem the statement, "I know lots of people who. . ." or "I have this friend who. . ." are simply cover for the questions of their own.

Personally I have doubted my salvation on occasion. I have doubted the existence of God himself on occasion. And these were times after I was saved, after I was serving as a pastor. I have heard others say they never doubted. Personally, I don't believe them. Perhaps they have lived soft lives and God has protected them, I don't know, but I believe that the trials and tides of life will cause all of us to doubt at one time or another. The Bible gives us a good example when John the Baptist doubted that Jesus was the Messiah, after preaching it for years.

The important thing is that even when I doubted, even when my faith was weak, God was not weak. Just because I doubted did not change the reality of my salvation or my God. (Mark 9:24). Will you serve God even when you doubt? Even when you feel that he has forsaken you, will you still follow what you know to be true, even when it feels wrong?

 

[Yeshua1]

Yes, BELIEVING gives eternal life, not choosing.

the very reason that you and I can and have believed in Jesus is due to the Father first choosing us to be in Him, and that act of election causes me to receive and belive, placing faith unto Jesus!

It all begins and ends with God!

 

[preacher4truth]

John 1:13 and Romans 9:16 show that human decision is not the clincher in salvation yet there is an abundance of preaching today that says salvation is based upon human decision. This is a lie that has assured many that show no genuine conversion and said base all of their salvation on a prayer and decision they've made. Many of these never darken the door of a church, nor do they desire the things of God.

I will believe the Scripture and it denies such a fallacy of human decision based salvation.

When a person desires the things of God, desires the Word, preaching, prayer, feel and know God moving upon them to be holy and to trust upon Him, these are those who have for the most part been genuinely converted. There is also the doubting and examining of self that comes along with this with the fear and trembling of working out ones salvation.

All the arguing, reasoning and illustrations in the world to make salvation the same as crossing a bridge and what not fall well short of truth. Faith is not an inherent decision but is the supernatural act of God and gift of God. Eph. 1:19.

BTW, many people who are truly saved doubt their salvation and do so on all sides of the camp. Rely upon Christ and Him alone and leave feelings and doubts which are a lack of faith aside, trust fully in the salvation to be brought unto you by His grace as per 1 Peter 1:13.

 

[Winman]

the very reason that you and I can and have believed in Jesus is due to the Father first choosing us to be in Him, and that act of election causes me to receive and belive, placing faith unto Jesus!

It all begins and ends with God!

Where do the scriptures say God chose persons "to be" in Christ.

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

The scriptures say that God hath chosen us "in him", that is, in Christ, but nowhere do the scriptures ever say we were chosen "to be" in him.

You can't just add words to scripture. Show where the scriptures ever say we were chosen "to be" in Christ. You can't do it.

It is a very dangerous thing to add to the word of God.

 

[Yeshua1]

John 1:13 and Romans 9:16 show that human decision is not the clincher in salvation yet there is an abundance of preaching today that says salvation is based upon human decision. This is a lie that has assured many that show no genuine conversion and said base all of their salvation on a prayer and decision they've made. Many of these never darken the door of a church, nor do they desire the things of God.

I will believe the Scripture and it denies such a fallacy of human decision based salvation.

When a person desires the things of God, desires the Word, preaching, prayer, feel and know God moving upon them to be holy and to trust upon Him, these are those who have for the most part been genuinely converted. There is also the doubting and examining of self that comes along with this with the fear and trembling of working out ones salvation.

All the arguing, reasoning and illustrations in the world to make salvation the same as crossing a bridge and what not fall well short of truth. Faith is not an inherent decision but is the supernatural act of God and gift of God. Eph. 1:19.

BTW, many people who are truly saved doubt their salvation and do so on all sides of the camp. Rely upon Christ and Him alone and leave feelings and doubts which are a lack of faith aside, trust fully in the salvation to be brought unto you by His grace as per 1 Peter 1:13.

one of the biggest myths satan fostered on the church, from the very beginning, that we were still able to use and exercise real "free will!"

 

[preacher4truth]

Where do the scriptures say God chose persons "to be" in Christ.

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

The scriptures say that God hath chosen us "in him", that is, in Christ, but nowhere do the scriptures ever say we were chosen "to be" in him.

You can't just add words to scripture. Show where the scriptures ever say we were chosen "to be" in Christ. You can't do it.

It is a very dangerous thing to add to the word of God.

The verse you cannot see clearly is the passage that shows your error. To be in Him and chosen in Him are the same thing. Your errors in interpretation that are unremitting are frankly scary. You both take away and add to Scripture to support your Finneyism and decisional salvation which is contrary to the revelation of Gods Word.

 

[preacher4truth]

one of the biggest myths satan fostered on the church, from the very beginning, that we were still able to use and exercise real "free will!"

Agreed. God must take the blinders off for His to see this. This of course is in answer to the prayer of Paul in Ephesians 1. We had a couple last week in tears after church thanking God for the fact that they now see these truths! When I pointed them to this passage they were humbled and praised God for it.

 

[Yeshua1]

The verse you cannot see clearly is the passage that shows your error. To be in Him and chosen in Him are the same thing. Your errors in interpretation that are unremitting are frankly scary. You both take away and add to Scripture to support your Finneyism and decisional salvation which is contrary to the revelation of Gods Word.

Only 2 choices available on the basis how we were chosen to be found in Christ by God...

Either he decided to do that for us, or else we allowed Him to do that for us!

 

[preacher4truth]

Only 2 choices available on the basis how we were chosen to be found in Christ by God...

Either he decided to do that for us, or else we allowed Him to do that for us!

He decided to do this for us according to foreknowledge. And foreknowledge is not based upon what many in church think it is. Unfortunately years of poor preaching has lent toward many erroneous beliefs.

 

[Winman]

The verse you cannot see clearly is the passage that shows your error. To be in Him and chosen in Him are the same thing. Your errors in interpretation that are unremitting are frankly scary. You both take away and add to Scripture to support your Finneyism and decisional salvation which is contrary to the revelation of Gods Word.

There is a HUGE difference between saying someone is chosen TO BE in him versus someone is chosen IN HIM. If you cannot distinguish this difference I do not know what to tell you.

Calvinism teaches God chooses men outside of Jesus in order to place them in Christ. Non-Cals and Arminians believe God chooses those persons whom he foreknew in Christ. HUGE difference.

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

I do not see the words "to be" in this verse, perhaps you can show them to me.

 

[Winman]

We are chosen "in him" before the foundation of the world. (Eph 1:4)

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

We are placed "in Christ" in time when we believe on him.

Rom 16:7 Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellowprisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.

This verse shows persons are placed "in Christ" in time when they believe.

So, if a person is placed in Christ in time when they believe, how could God choose us "in him" before the foundation of the world?

The answer? Foreknowledge. We were chosen or elected according to the foreknowledge of God the Father.

1 Pet 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

What did God foresee that caused him to elect us? Faith.

2 The 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

Tit 1:1 Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;

It's all very plain unless a person does not want to see it.