I thought I was saved, but....

[Earth Wind and Fire]

You've described winman and his unbiblical theology perfectly. Your conclusive remark that he will not submit to the truth is spot on as well.

However, I am amazed with the definition of insanity being used here so oft in attempting to correct winman. Some you just cannot help. The whole thing reminds me of JW's. They know verses but they do not interpret them correctly. Pondering that is a solemn thought. In addition I know of no Baptist who believes the things winman teaches.

The insanity Rob is in even engaging ....but its a continuation that knows no ending......maybe we like to or maybe to prove ourselves superior, seriously dont know. All I know is that he knows my position & I know his....and there is very little debate beyond those parameters.

 

[Amy.G]

How did this turn into another Cal/Arm debate?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

How did this turn into another Cal/Arm debate?

Its BB sister...... what else gets them going.....sick huh?

 

[Winman]

Just because GOD has a sense of justice and is able to "judge the whole earth" does not mean that "men have an innate sense of justice."

Sure they do. We see in this story that Abraham did not believe it correct to punish the righteous with the wicked. All men everywhere understand this. The only exception in the whole world might be Calvinists. :laugh:

History has shown that not only is that sense not existent, but what little justice humankind consider outside of the Scriptures is perverted and actually unjust.

Give me a break, the entire legal system is based on the concept of justice.

So it is Ok to apply the statement to ALL humankind? God will build up those who are His and destroy all others?

Anybody who reads the scriptures can see Moses believed in God and obeyed him, Pharaoh rebelled against God. Moses therefore was fit to be a vessel of honor, Pharaoh was fit to be a vessel of dishonor.

Isn't this what you proclaim as unjust? Isn't this EXACTLY what Calvinistic thinking holds as true?

What is unjust is to destroy the righteous with the wicked as Abraham said.

It would also be unjust for God to make a man a sinner, and then punish that man for being the very thing God made him to be.

But that is not what Romans 9 is saying. It is not saying that God made Moses good, and that God made Pharaoh bad. Moses was good because he chose to believe in God and obey him, Pharaoh was bad because he chose to be bad and disobey. God never causes any man to sin, God does not even so much as tempt any man to sin.

Jam 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

God does not tempt ANY man, but EVERY man is tempted when he is drawn away of his OWN lust and enticed.

But... once a man has chosen to sin as Pharaoh did, God is in no way unjust to make an example of him and destroy him before the world. This is what Paul is saying. He was "fitted" or deserving of destruction. Moses was obedient and so was fitted to honor.

GOD does NOT hold himself to any human standard.

No, God holds himself to his OWN standards. God is not a hypocrite. Jesus hated hypocrites.

Mat 24:51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

God sets the standard and holds humankind to HIS standard. Because you perceive the opposite to be true it has impacted your perspective of what is actually correct.

God also holds himself to his standards, again, God is not a hypocrite. But Calvinism teaches that God breaks his own laws.

Abraham NEVER questioned God's standard of righteousness. He questioned the application.

Abraham asked God how he could destroy the righteous with the wicked. He said, "Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?"

It seems to be your desire to confuse the two principles (standard and application).

It seems to be your desire to ignore the evidence I have provided.

When God was visiting with Abraham, did He already know how many righteous were in the city(ies), or was God just guessing and bargaining with Abraham?

All your illustration has done was support a view in which you want to refute, and is no credit in upholding your thinking.

You are correct, God did know how many righteous were in the city. There was Lot, his wife, and two daughters. And God brought them out of the city and did not destroy them.

Calvinists love Romans 9 and the story of the potter, but they do not interpret it correctly. No potter in his right mind purposely makes defective pottery, he would not be in business very long doing that. The Jews that Paul was speaking to understood that.

But... if while forming a piece of pottery a defect is found in it, then a potter is not unjust to crush it, or form it into a lesser piece. This is what Paul is saying. The potter doesn't purposely put the defect there, but if he finds it, he may destroy the piece.

But no potter forms defective pottery on purpose. This goes right over the heads of Calvinists.

 

[preacher4truth]

The insanity Rob is in even engaging ....but its a continuation that knows no ending......maybe we like to or maybe to prove ourselves superior, seriously dont know. All I know is that he knows my position & I know his....and there is very little debate beyond those parameters.

I don't see it as a Cal/Arm debate nor do I see it as a debate to see who is superior. It is a fight for the faith and nothing more.

 

[Mexdeaf]

When it comes to salvation, God's choice trumps man's every time.

 

[Yeshua1]

Then you do not know your scriptures. Lot was righteous, that is why God sent two angels to bring Lot, his wife, and two of his daughters out of the city. The angels told Lot they could not destroy the city until he was out of it.

Gen 19:15 And when the morning arose, then the angels hastened Lot, saying, Arise, take thy wife, and thy two daughters, which are here; lest thou be consumed in the iniquity of the city.
16 And while he lingered, the men laid hold upon his hand, and upon the hand of his wife, and upon the hand of his two daughters; the LORD being merciful unto him: and they brought him forth, and set him without the city.
17 And it came to pass, when they had brought them forth abroad, that he said, Escape for thy life; look not behind thee, neither stay thou in all the plain; escape to the mountain, lest thou be consumed.
18 And Lot said unto them, Oh, not so, my Lord:
19 Behold now, thy servant hath found grace in thy sight, and thou hast magnified thy mercy, which thou hast shewed unto me in saving my life; and I cannot escape to the mountain, lest some evil take me, and I die:
20 Behold now, this city is near to flee unto, and it is a little one: Oh, let me escape thither, (is it not a little one?) and my soul shall live.
21 And he said unto him, See, I have accepted thee concerning this thing also, that I will not overthrow this city, for the which thou hast spoken.
22 Haste thee, escape thither; for I cannot do any thing till thou be come thither. Therefore the name of the city was called Zoar.

These angels warned Lot to get out of the city lest he be destroyed. When Lot procrastinated, the angles physically laid hold on them and forcefully brought them out of the city to save them.

Because they were having difficulty getting a safe distance away, the angels allowed the small city of Zoar to be spared for Lot's sake.

Lot was righteous.

2 Pet 2:6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;
7 And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:

2 Peter 2:7 tells us Lot was saved, he was "just", that is, his sins were forgiven and he was "righteous".

This is why God did not destroy Lot. God does not just do whatever, he obeys his own laws, he is not a hypocrite.

NONE aree righteous before God, ALL are filthy sinners, who have NOT lived as required to get saved, and that is why Jesus died, for He did what NONE could do but him, live as a righteous Mna and keeping Law of God!

your belief in this isrebuked by Paul, as he saw NONE right, all fallen!

 

[Winman]

NONE aree righteous before God, ALL are filthy sinners, who have NOT lived as required to get saved, and that is why Jesus died, for He did what NONE could do but him, live as a righteous Mna and keeping Law of God!

your belief in this isrebuked by Paul, as he saw NONE right, all fallen!

None are righteous before God? Is that so?

Gen 7:1 And the LORD said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation.

Then why does this verse say God saw Noah righteous before him?

 

[Yeshua1]

None are righteous before God? Is that so?

Gen 7:1 And the LORD said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation.

Then why does this verse say God saw Noah righteous before him?

in comparison to others on the earth, but NOT righteous as one without sin, as not being a sinner!

ONLY jesus EVER was righteous in that regard, as one without a sin nature, who also never had sinned!

 

[preacher4truth]

in comparison to others on the earth, but NOT righteous as one without sin, as not being a sinner!

ONLY jesus EVER was righteous in that regard, as one without a sin nature, who also never had sinned!

God made Noah righteous, that is why he was called righteous. Noah was born again.

 

[Winman]

in comparison to others on the earth, but NOT righteous as one without sin, as not being a sinner!

ONLY jesus EVER was righteous in that regard, as one without a sin nature, who also never had sinned!

When did I say Lot was without sin? Show where I ever said that.

I simply showed you 2 Peter 2:7 that said that Lot was a just man.

2 Pet 2:7 And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:

Lot was a righteous man because he was justified. He believed in the Lord and his sins were forgiven. This is what the scriptures mean by a righteous man. There were many men the scriptures called righteous.

Heb 11:4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.


Was Abel a righteous man, yes or no?

 

[salzer mtn]

For you that don't believe in any kind of feeling at the moment of salvation, The peace that passeth all understanding, Phil 4:7 that Christ gives is a feeling is it not ? Or is there no peace in your soul ?

 

[Mexdeaf]

For you that don't believe in any kind of feeling at the moment of salvation, The peace that passeth all understanding, Phil 4:7 that Christ gives is a feeling is it not ? Or is there no peace in your soul ?

If salvation depends upon feelings then I am not saved until after my first cup of coffee.

 

[salzer mtn]

If salvation depends upon feelings then I am not saved until after my first cup of coffee.

There is that moment that Christ sends the Holy Spirit into your soul and gives life. How can anyone receive anything from God and not know it ? People want to completely throw feelings out the window. How do you know you love God, is it not that spirit of love he has placed within us. Have you ever set in a church service and been blessed ? how do you know you were blessed unless you felt you were blessed.

 

[Mexdeaf]

There is that moment that Christ sends the Holy Spirit into your soul and gives life. How can anyone receive anything from God and not know it ? People want to completely throw feelings out the window. How do you know you love God, is it not that spirit of love he has placed within us. Have you ever set in a church service and been blessed ? how do you know you were blessed unless you felt you were blessed.

I am blessed every time I take a breath. Blessings do not have to equal "feelings".

 

[sag38]

Job was the other way around. He felt as if he had been abandoned by God. Feelings aren't always the best indicator of being right with God.

 

[salzer mtn]

So it all comes down to some people that leaves feelings out are either told they have been saved or read they have been saved because they believe, but their belief is based on what they think is right based on what they have heard. So my question is, can you be sure what you were told was the truth ? You really have no assurance that it is unless God gives the assurance.

 

[Mexdeaf]

So it all comes down to some people that leaves feelings out are either told they have been saved or read they have been saved because they believe, but their belief is based on what they think is right based on what they have heard. So my question is, can you be sure what you were told was the truth ? You really have no assurance that it is unless God gives the assurance.

Assurance comes from checking our lives against the Word. If the fruit is there, the tree is good. No fruit- the tree is dead. Simple as that, no feelings needed. Jesus said BY THEIR FRUIT you shall know them, not by their feelings.

 

[salzer mtn]

Assurance comes from checking our lives against the Word. If the fruit is there, the tree is good. No fruit- the tree is dead. Simple as that, no feelings needed. Jesus said BY THEIR FRUIT you shall know them, not by their feelings.

But can you be honest when you check your life against the word ? Also, some people naturally have nice personalities that are family traits, meaning their loving, caring, honest, full of joy, longsuffering, gentile people even though they have never been saved.

 

[Yeshua1]

Assurance comes from checking our lives against the Word. If the fruit is there, the tree is good. No fruit- the tree is dead. Simple as that, no feelings needed. Jesus said BY THEIR FRUIT you shall know them, not by their feelings.

Also comes by believing what the Bible states, that we have passed from spiritual death to ne wlife in christ!

renew our minds by the Bible, and get Gods views on this topic!