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I used to be a Mormon: AMA

John of Japan

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
@iThinkStuff
So, please enlighten us about the Mormon Apostles. The Biblical apostles were soul-winning, church planting missionaries. Usually they worked cross-culturally, especially after the book of Acts. All except James, who was martyred early, they all went out into the field as missionaries. Thomas is especially notable for having gone to India, where he was killed with a lance outside of Madras.

So how does Mormonism say that their apostles are Biblical?
 

iThinkStuff

Member
I've had numerous encounters with Mormon missionaries. I once was approached by two "Elders" (a ridiculous title for young men) at an independent Baptist missionary conference. I'm not sure what they were doing there. Sometimes a young Mormon missionary will have the notion that they want to convert Baptists, as seen in the biography of Micah Wilder I mentioned above, so maybe that's what they were after.

I shocked the daylights out of them by saying I was a biblical apostle. Of course the big high mucky muck (pardon my language) of the Mormons is called an apostle, for reasons unclear to me. I believe the word "apostle" in the NT simply means a soul-winning, church planting missionary. Of course the 12 were special, but there were many others mentioned in the NT.

For Mormons, the term apostle is taken to mean "special witness of Christ". What this means in practical terms is that the 12 (15, really) want everyone to assume that they have personally met Jesus. They will use veiled terms to express it, allude to "experiences too sacred to share", and hint at it a lot but not a one of them will come right out and say it, probably because that would be lying.

One of the first cracks to form is discovering that not only are they just ordinary people without extraordinary experiences, they are also comfortable at lying and seeking their own glory. When they enter a room, they expect everyone to stand up and remain standing until they are given permission to sit. You are not allowed to question or vote against them. Every six months there is a "sustaining vote" held for them in their conferences. If you vote in opposition, you are told to visit your local ecclesiastical leader where you are promptly rebuked or ex-communicated. If there is a policy you dislike or find un-Christlike, too bad. They speak to Christ, don'tcha know, so you must be in rebellion against Christ.

I had tremendous respect for them at one point in time. Now I consider them like a pack of Joel Osteens, except the wealth they have amassed would make Joel blush green in envy.
 

John of Japan

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
For Mormons, the term apostle is taken to mean "special witness of Christ". What this means in practical terms is that the 12 (15, really) want everyone to assume that they have personally met Jesus. They will use veiled terms to express it, allude to "experiences too sacred to share", and hint at it a lot but not a one of them will come right out and say it, probably because that would be lying.

One of the first cracks to form is discovering that not only are they just ordinary people without extraordinary experiences, they are also comfortable at lying and seeking their own glory. When they enter a room, they expect everyone to stand up and remain standing until they are given permission to sit. You are not allowed to question or vote against them. Every six months there is a "sustaining vote" held for them in their conferences. If you vote in opposition, you are told to visit your local ecclesiastical leader where you are promptly rebuked or ex-communicated. If there is a policy you dislike or find un-Christlike, too bad. They speak to Christ, don'tcha know, so you must be in rebellion against Christ.

I had tremendous respect for them at one point in time. Now I consider them like a pack of Joel Osteens, except the wealth they have amassed would make Joel blush green in envy.
Very informative. Thank you.
 

iThinkStuff

Member
@iThinkStuff
So, please enlighten us about the Mormon Apostles. The Biblical apostles were soul-winning, church planting missionaries. Usually they worked cross-culturally, especially after the book of Acts. All except James, who was martyred early, they all went out into the field as missionaries. Thomas is especially notable for having gone to India, where he was killed with a lance outside of Madras.

So how does Mormonism say that their apostles are Biblical?

I think I answered most of that in the post above, but to the question about church planting and martydom...

They plant Mormon churches like McDonald's franchises. Then, when the local branches are sufficiently stable and producing enough income, they announce that they are finally worthy of a temple. You'll notice this mostly happens in high net worth areas or areas with high property value (relatively speaking, of course). The temples are dedicated usually by an Apostle of some standing, sometimes even someone from the First Presidency (the Peter, James, and John of our age, so to speak) and they'll do odd vain things like put their autobiographies and pictures of themselves in the sealed cornerstones of the temple.

I believe they mostly preach to the faithful. Sometimes press interviews, sometimes with government officials, but aside from the twice yearly broadcasted conferences you don't see them in public much.

How are the next apostles chosen after one dies? Easy - the remaining apostles get together and have to vote unanimously on the replacement, usually someone who has already crawled into the ranks of the 70 or have some personal familial relation to someone else in the 12. Over the last 50 years, seldom an apostle is chosen who isn't also an MBA, lawyer, or doctor. Humble fishermen not so much.

They aren't martyred. They live on the best income with the best medical care available in the western world and live comfortably into their late 90s or more. I'd have to research the last one to actually be "martyred", but I think it was Parley P. Pratt, who took as a multiple wife someone in the south (who was already married) while he was on his mission. The locals didn't take kindly to that.
 

iThinkStuff

Member
This is why I first asked you if you would do a comparison of the Jesus of Mormonism and the Jesus of Christianity. I want to discern your faith and know what you now believe about Jesus.

I wrote up and delivered a statement of faith before I was baptized into my local church. Is that the kind of thing you're looking for? Other than that, I believe I stated a ways back who I know and believe Jesus to be. And honestly, aside from the core and fundamental things, I'll admit that I am rebuilding a lot from the ground up (as I've said several times).
 

John of Japan

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
11 wives weren't good enough. He need to take another man's wife as #12. Does that seem like a man who has met Jesus face to face?
Not in the slightest. And you haven't said so directly, but I agree with your implications that if the Christology isn't right, the religion isn't right. This is where every cult can be identified as a cult: what they say about Jesus Christ our Lord. The soteriology depends on Christ, the eschatology depends on Christ, the ecclesiology depends on Christ--everything does!
 

Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
The short version is they don't really have that same notion of the "Spirit of Christ". They prefer to ruminate on the idea of the "Holy Spirit", which comes in only two flavors:

1) The Spirit of Christ, sometimes referred to as "the light of Christ", which is a gift to all mankind that helps them identify truth, know right from wrong, serve as a kind of basic conscience. It's not the Holy Spirit proper, but a Holy Spirit-lite version that serves as a kind of flashlight for darkened, fallen mankind.

2) The Gift of the Holy Spirit, which ONLY Mormons can receive (sorry, Christians) and only through a Mormon Elder with the Melchizedek priesthood. This is like a semi-permanent version of the former, and comes after Baptism through the laying on of hands by said Elder. This is a kind of in-dwelling of a member of the godhead, basically, which is why it can only be bestowed by an Elder who got his priesthood going back through a line to Joseph Smith/Peter, James, and John/Christ Himself.

I'm curious what your take is on the Spirit of Christ. It's certainly not a concept I got a lot of exposure to, at least not in the Mormon paradigm.

My take is based on:Romans 8:9 (equating the Spirit of God with the Spirit of Christ) and 1 Peter 1:11 (equating the Spirit that inspired the OT writers with the Spirit of Christ.
 

Earth Wind and Fire

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I think I answered most of that in the post above, but to the question about church planting and martydom...

They plant Mormon churches like McDonald's franchises. Then, when the local branches are sufficiently stable and producing enough income, they announce that they are finally worthy of a temple. You'll notice this mostly happens in high net worth areas or areas with high property value (relatively speaking, of course). The temples are dedicated usually by an Apostle of some standing, sometimes even someone from the First Presidency (the Peter, James, and John of our age, so to speak) and they'll do odd vain things like put their autobiographies and pictures of themselves in the sealed cornerstones of the temple.

I believe they mostly preach to the faithful. Sometimes press interviews, sometimes with government officials, but aside from the twice yearly broadcasted conferences you don't see them in public much.

How are the next apostles chosen after one dies? Easy - the remaining apostles get together and have to vote unanimously on the replacement, usually someone who has already crawled into the ranks of the 70 or have some personal familial relation to someone else in the 12. Over the last 50 years, seldom an apostle is chosen who isn't also an MBA, lawyer, or doctor. Humble fishermen not so much.

They aren't martyred. They live on the best income with the best medical care available in the western world and live comfortably into their late 90s or more. I'd have to research the last one to actually be "martyred", but I think it was Parley P. Pratt, who took as a multiple wife someone in the south (who was already married) while he was on his mission. The locals didn't take kindly to that.
“On his mission”…. That’s funny, how does that line up with scripture!?! Or is he sooo special, Forget him!
 
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JonC

Moderator
Moderator
I'd have to research the last one to actually be "martyred", but I think it was Parley P. Pratt, who took as a multiple wife someone in the south (who was already married) while he was on his mission. The locals didn't take kindly to that.
Yes. The South is kinda fickle about their women. (Sorry. I got a chuckle with your last sentence). :Wink
 

iThinkStuff

Member
“On his mission”…. That’s funny, how does that line up with scripture!?! Or is he sooo special, Forget him!

Yeah I can't say I ever read anything about any of Jesus's apostles using missions as an excuse to collect wives....

That being said, Mormon missions used to be about more than wife collecting campaigns. They used to be about wife-denying as well. What do I mean by wife-denying? Well, here's an interesting story from my own family history.

My great-grandfather was a farmer in Idaho who by the age of 50 still had not managed to find himself a wife (let alone multiple wives). Somehow when other men were collecting them like Pokemon cards, my great-grandfather's isolation or lack of influence left him hanging high and dry. He was a good and faithful Mormon, had served a three year mission abroad, active in the church, etc, but the practice of the day was that the leaders of the church got first dibs on all the women, whether they already had multiples of them or not.

Enter the woman who would become my great-grandmother. She was the third wife of one Samuel Harrison Smith, Joseph Smith's nephew. They had two children together, but ole Samuel apparently didn't much feel like taking care of them. They were on the point of starvation when the church finally "allowed" her to divorce Mr. Smith and marry my great-grandfather. So how did the church reward my great-grandfather for marrying the unwanted leftover of Joseph Smith's nephew? Why, by immediately separating him from his bride and sending him on another 3 year mission to England. His wife and stepsons were left to fend for themselves on his farm while he was away

It's a miracle my grandfather was ever born - years after they were married, and when my great-grandfather was well into his 50's. He was the only child they were able to have together given the machinations of the church against them. Somehow they all stayed in the Mormon church and never quite saw it for what it is.
 

Earth Wind and Fire

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Yeah I can't say I ever read anything about any of Jesus's apostles using missions as an excuse to collect wives....

That being said, Mormon missions used to be about more than wife collecting campaigns. They used to be about wife-denying as well. What do I mean by wife-denying? Well, here's an interesting story from my own family history.

My great-grandfather was a farmer in Idaho who by the age of 50 still had not managed to find himself a wife (let alone multiple wives). Somehow when other men were collecting them like Pokemon cards, my great-grandfather's isolation or lack of influence left him hanging high and dry. He was a good and faithful Mormon, had served a three year mission abroad, active in the church, etc, but the practice of the day was that the leaders of the church got first dibs on all the women, whether they already had multiples of them or not.

Enter the woman who would become my great-grandmother. She was the third wife of one Samuel Harrison Smith, Joseph Smith's nephew. They had two children together, but ole Samuel apparently didn't much feel like taking care of them. They were on the point of starvation when the church finally "allowed" her to divorce Mr. Smith and marry my great-grandfather. So how did the church reward my great-grandfather for marrying the unwanted leftover of Joseph Smith's nephew? Why, by immediately separating him from his bride and sending him on another 3 year mission to England. His wife and stepsons were left to fend for themselves on his farm while he was away

It's a miracle my grandfather was ever born - years after they were married, and when my great-grandfather was well into his 50's. He was the only child they were able to have together given the machinations of the church against them. Somehow they all stayed in the Mormon church and never quite saw it for what it is.
Weird. Some of my family are from Wales… I consider them the ultimate Non Conventional / Conformists church people ie they went with the Quakers, the Mormons, The Calvinist Methodists, the Baptists…everything but the Anglicans. My WELSH great grand father was a Primitive Baptist elder who served his community as a Welsh/English translator for the Welsh coal miner community in Western Pennsylvania. Grandpa was born prior to the mine accident that took my great grandfathers life. My grandfather moved to Scranton PA and married a 16 yr old girl from a Slovak coal miner turned pump contractor turned farmer. That guy was really family oriented and gathered his children and grandchildren on the farm and took care of them during the depression and beyond… they were Catholics and so when he and my mother married he converted to Catholicism. I was raised RC. That’s a strange story but typically American melting pot style intermarriage stuff. I now identify with the Old School baptists soooo welcome to the Children of God society! :)
 
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tyndale1946

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Weird. Some of my family are from Wales… I consider them the ultimate Non Conventional / Conformists church people ie they went with the Quakers, the Mormons, The Calvinist Methodists, the Baptists…everything but the Anglicans. My WELSH great grand father was a Primitive Baptist elder who served his community as a Welsh/English translator for the Welsh coal miner community in Western Pennsylvania. Grandpa was born prior to the mine accident that took my great grandfathers life. My grandfather moved to Scranton PA and married a 16 yr old girl from a Slovak coal miner turned pump contractor turned farmer. That guy was really family oriented and gathered his children and grandchildren on the farm and took care of them during the depression and beyond… they were Catholics and so when he and my mother married he converted to Catholicism. I was raised RC. That’s a strange story but typically American melting pot style intermarriage stuff. I now identify with the Old School baptists soooo welcome to the Children of God society! :)

So why didn't you tell me that your Welsh great grand father was a Primitive Baptist elder?... Welcome home, you just found your roots... Brother Glen:)
 

Earth Wind and Fire

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
So why didn't you tell me that your Welsh great grand father was a Primitive Baptist elder?... Welcome home, you just found your roots... Brother Glen:)
Ahhh, I did … thanks. All part of being that particular Celtic clan( the sons of David ) that’s appropriate I’m thinking. :Wink
 
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