I was born this way...

[Winman]

That is the best answer to this question regardless of where you stand regarding the doctrine of depravity and original sin.

Yeah, it's a total cop-out answer, but it is the best answer you can give if you believe newborn babies are sinners.

Abraham seemed to believe differently;

Gen 18:25 That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?

 

[annsni]

Yeah, it's a total cop-out answer, but it is the best answer you can give if you believe newborn babies are sinners.

Abraham seemed to believe differently;

Gen 18:25 That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?

So God made sure that all of the infants and unborn children were taken out of Sodom? Can you show me the verse?

I can show you where God demands the destruction of ALL in a city - including pregnant women and children. Why would He destroy someone who is sinless?

And if children are truly sinless, isn't it more merciful to kill them before they even have a chance to take a breath? This will assure that they spend eternity in heaven rather than be born and risk them choosing sin over God.

 

[Skandelon]

Yeah, it's a total cop-out answer, but it is the best answer you can give if you believe newborn babies are sinners.

Winman, that is what Baptists believe and this is a Baptist only debate section...sooooo

 

[Benjamin]

Whatever God has deemed right. If God were to send my babies to hell, I would be heartbroken just as I would be if my older brother were to die today denying Christ. But I would know that it was a right judgment. I trust God. Don't you?

I trust that all the things God does is Good. His work is perfect, yes. All God's ways are judgment and He is Just in truth. Where is the truth in God creating a baby and judging it before it even enters the world or before it reason with it's own God given mind where it can be held accountable and judged in truth???

Will you say that God has predestined some to be evil and that's how He judges before they can respond? If so, then you've violated the truth that all God's work is perfect and He is without inequity, not evil can come from Him, He is not responsible for evil, ever. God is Truth, one should hold to that premise FIRST!

I'm afraid the premise you are putting first is one of a doctrine of original sin that does not fit Gods ways that He is a God of judgment in truth. Therefore, sorry, but I think your reasoning is flawed based on your premise.

 

[annsni]

That is the best answer to this question regardless of where you stand regarding the doctrine of depravity and original sin.

Thanks. I just have grown up really fully trusting God. I knew when my daughter was really ill and we were risking losing her that I fully trusted God to do what He was planning to do - even if it meant her death. It would have been probably the worst thing to happen in my life but I trust Him. Through so many situations in my life, I know that God will do what it's right even if I'm not happy about it and that's good. I certainly don't want Him working off of MY wisdom! LOL

 

[Skandelon]

Guys, this is a Baptist only debate area and like it or not Baptists have historically affirmed the doctrine of Original Sin. Some people don't get to heaven on the basis of their own innocence, but there is ONLY one way, which is through Christ.

"God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he might show mercy to them all." Rom. 11:32

Calvinists deny the second half of that verse, don't make the same mistake by denying the first half.

 

[Skandelon]

Thanks. I just have grown up really fully trusting God. I knew when my daughter was really ill and we were risking losing her that I fully trusted God to do what He was planning to do - even if it meant her death. It would have been probably the worst thing to happen in my life but I trust Him. Through so many situations in my life, I know that God will do what it's right even if I'm not happy about it and that's good. I certainly don't want Him working off of MY wisdom! LOL

When you learn to love and trust Him these types of question become much less difficult...that is for sure!

 

[Winman]

So God made sure that all of the infants and unborn children were taken out of Sodom? Can you show me the verse?

I can show you where God demands the destruction of ALL in a city - including pregnant women and children. Why would He destroy someone who is sinless?

And if children are truly sinless, isn't it more merciful to kill them before they even have a chance to take a breath? This will assure that they spend eternity in heaven rather than be born and risk them choosing sin over God.

Yes, but we are not talking about temporal death, we are talking about everlasting punishment.

Yes, God did command the Jews to kill children and babies. The reason is, these children would grow up and revert to their parents evil religions and pervert Israel.

We see this today when many black Americans revert to Islam. Is that good? They will die and go to hell.

But those children of the wicked nations God had Joshua kill all went to heaven.

 

[Benjamin]

Winman, that is what Baptists believe and this is a Baptist only debate section...sooooo

In the words of Winman, "bologna".

The fall in which all will sin ("bound TO sin", BY the nature they where born with, human volition) is not being disputed by him the doctrine of Augustine's original non-free will sin is being disputed. Any time you would like to stick to the belief the Determinist view of original sin as a Baptist only issue let me know because I'd like to see you try to logically avoid a view of determinism in the process.

 

[annsni]

Guys, this is a Baptist only debate area and like it or not Baptists have historically affirmed the doctrine of Original Sin. Some people don't get to heaven on the basis of their own innocence, but there is ONLY one way, which is through Christ.

"God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he might show mercy to them all." Rom. 11:32

Calvinists deny the second half of that verse, don't make the same mistake by denying the first half.

I disagree that Calvinists deny the second half of the verse. It's there, clearly. Yet not all mankind goes to heaven so we know that the "all" in there can't mean all mankind unless one believes in universalism which I'm sure no one here does.

 

[Skandelon]

I disagree that Calvinists deny the second half of the verse. It's there, clearly. Yet not all mankind goes to heaven so we know that the "all" in there can't mean all mankind unless one believes in universalism which I'm sure no one here does.

Or it could mean that the mercy shown is not irresistible but provisional, just like the snake lifted in the dessert, the passover sacrifice, or all the other provisional sacrifices in the OT.

 

[Winman]

When you learn to love and trust Him these types of question become much less difficult...that is for sure!

That's not a good answer and you know it. It has to do with justice. God does not send innocent babies to hell for eternity because they do not understand right from wrong.

When the Jews sinned in the wilderness, God did not allow them to enter the promised land which is a figure of heaven.

But God did allow their children to go in and explained why, they did not know between good and evil in that day that they sinned.

Deu 1:39 Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it.

Another example is Jonah. Jonah was a bigot and did not want the people of Nineveh to be saved. But why did God say he SHOULD spare them? Because there were 120,000 small children in the city that could not discern between their right hand and their left, and much cattle. These little children were just as innocent as the cattle that cannot sin.

Jon 4:10 Then said the LORD, Thou hast had pity on the gourd, for the which thou hast not laboured, neither madest it grow; which came up in a night, and perished in a night:
11 And should not I spare Nineveh, that great city, wherein are more than sixscore thousand persons that cannot discern between their right hand and their left hand; and also much cattle?

And yet another example is David's son who died. He was the child of David and Bathsheba's adultery, but David said he would go to the child. This tells us the child absolutely went to heaven, as David was a prophet, and God had promised the Messiah would come through his seed.

2 Sam 2:23 But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me.

It's a good thing God did not impute David's sin to this little baby, or he would have went straight to hell.

 

[Iconoclast]

Amy.G

Your whole post is a big jumbled up mess of eisegesis.

[/QUOTE]


Yes it was:thumbs::wavey::thumbs:

 

[Skandelon]

In the words of Winman, "bologna".

The fall in which all will sin (bound TO sin, BY the nature they where born with, human volition) is not being disputed by him the doctrine of Augustine's original non-free will sin is being disputed. Any time you would like to stick to the belief the Determinist view of original sin as a Baptist let me know because I'd like to see you try to logically avoid a view of determinism in the process.

I didn't argue for the 'bound to a predetermined nature,' I argued for federal headship and the inherited sin nature by which we have a propensity toward sin, but still the freedom to respond to God's appeal for reconciliation from that sin.

 

[quantumfaith]

So God made sure that all of the infants and unborn children were taken out of Sodom? Can you show me the verse?

I can show you where God demands the destruction of ALL in a city - including pregnant women and children. Why would He destroy someone who is sinless?

And if children are truly sinless, isn't it more merciful to kill them before they even have a chance to take a breath? This will assure that they spend eternity in heaven rather than be born and risk them choosing sin over God.

Annisi, while I truly have no answer (and I am not being snarky or accusatory) I find this argument, which I have heard before, "atrocious". I think (just myself) we honestly don't know why, other than the fact "he is God", he would order the destruction of all life including children. Many have pondered and plundered for the answer to questions like this, but I think they just may elude us.

 

[Skandelon]

That's not a good answer and you know it. It has to do with justice. God does not send innocent babies to hell for eternity because they do not understand right from wrong.

Did I ever say He did? No. I said the best answer to this question is to appeal to the goodness of God and to trust him with that decision. There are a few friends in my life that I could completely trust with the care of my children. Is God one of those persons? Yes. I trust Him to do what is just and I'm okay with not knowing exactly what He will decide to do about every situation because I know it will be RIGHT.

 

[annsni]

That's not a good answer and you know it. It has to do with justice. God does not send innocent babies to hell for eternity because they do not understand right from wrong.

You are correct. God does not send innocent babies to hell for eternity. If babies go to hell, they are not innocent.

When the Jews sinned in the wilderness, God did not allow them to enter the promised land which is a figure of heaven.

But God did allow their children to go in and explained why, they did not know between good and evil in that day that they sinned.

Deu 1:39 Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it.

But if this is a figure of heaven, why was there sin in the promised land? God was being merciful here, I agree but I don't think we could see this as a model of heaven. Do you think every single adult complained? I wonder.

Another example is Jonah. Jonah was a bigot and did not want the people of Nineveh to be saved. But why did God say he SHOULD spare them? Because there were 120,000 small children in the city that could not discern between their right hand and their left, and much cattle. These little children were just as innocent as the cattle that cannot sin.

Jon 4:10 Then said the LORD, Thou hast had pity on the gourd, for the which thou hast not laboured, neither madest it grow; which came up in a night, and perished in a night:
11 And should not I spare Nineveh, that great city, wherein are more than sixscore thousand persons that cannot discern between their right hand and their left hand; and also much cattle?

Yet God was ready to destroy them ALL if the adults did not repent.

And yet another example is David's son who died. He was the child of David and Bathsheba's adultery, but David said he would go to the child. This tells us the child absolutely went to heaven, as David was a prophet, and God had promised the Messiah would come through his seed.

2 Sam 2:23 But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me.

It's a good thing God did not impute David's sin to this little baby, or he would have went straight to hell.

Or maybe he was saying that he will go to his son in the grave - that there was nothing he could do now and his son was gone. Whether David's baby went to heaven - we don't know.

 

[Winman]

I didn't argue for the 'bound to a predetermined nature,' I argued for federal headship and the inherited sin nature by which we have a propensity toward sin, but still the freedom to respond to God's appeal for reconciliation from that sin.

Sorry Skan, the reason you cannot convince Calvinists is because you still are one.

Original Sin is FALSE DOCTRINE.

Yes, we are all born "flesh" and the flesh lusts against the Spirit and tempts us to sin, but this does not make us sinful. Jesus came in the flesh and was tempted in ALL POINTS as we are, yet without sin.

It is OBEYING our fleshly lusts when they would cause us to transgress God's laws that makes us evil. This can only occur when we are old enough to understand right from wrong.

You still have one foot in Calvinism. That is why you cannot overcome it.

 

[quantumfaith]

Sorry Skan, the reason you cannot convince Calvinists is because you still are one.

Original Sin is FALSE DOCTRINE.

Yes, we are all born "flesh" and the flesh lusts against the Spirit and tempts us to sin, but this does not make us sinful. Jesus came in the flesh and was tempted in ALL POINTS as we are, yet without sin.

It is OBEYING our fleshly lusts when they would cause us to transgress God's laws that makes us evil. This can only occur when we are old enough to understand right from wrong.

You still have one foot in Calvinism. That is why you cannot overcome it.

WM, perhaps I am theologically naive, but I don't think "original sin" is an idea or doctrine which lands solely in the reformed camp. I am pretty sure that many on both sides of the theological aisle subscribe to some form of it.

 

[Skandelon]

Sorry Skan, the reason you cannot convince Calvinists is because you still are one.

Original Sin is FALSE DOCTRINE.

Yes, we are all born "flesh" and the flesh lusts against the Spirit and tempts us to sin, but this does not make us sinful. Jesus came in the flesh and was tempted in ALL POINTS as we are, yet without sin.

It is OBEYING our fleshly lusts when they would cause us to transgress God's laws that makes us evil. This can only occur when we are old enough to understand right from wrong.

You still have one foot in Calvinism. That is why you cannot overcome it.

So, Winman, do you believe there are some people in heaven who are atoned for by Christ and others there because they are innocent and deserved to be their on the basis that they never sinned?