I was sad when they hanged Saddam

[Citizen]

But God has given the state authority.

You're mistaken here. God has given authority for all governments to function without fear of interference from Christians. We aren't to rebel or cause an uprising. That doesn't mean we are required to endorse the government's actions--especially if those actions fly in the face of the teachings of Christ.

Using your logic, Saddam's government was God-sanctioned and we were therefore in the wrong for toppling it.

 

[DHK]

You're mistaken here. God has given authority for all governments to function without fear of interference from Christians. We aren't to rebel or cause an uprising. That doesn't mean we are required to endorse the government's actions--especially if those actions fly in the face of the teachings of Christ.

Using your logic, Saddam's government was God-sanctioned and we were therefore in the wrong for toppling it.

Saddam's government was God sanctioned. If you lived in Iraq at that time you would have to submit to the government. There are Christians in Iraq. They submit to the goverment. There is a difference between two nations going to war against each other and submitting to the government while living in that nation.
It is God that sets up government. It is God that brings them down. All government is God-ordained. That doesn't mean that God sanctions what all governments do.

 

[tragic_pizza]

That's a lot like doublespeak.

 

[Pastor Larry]

I answered you honestly, Larry. I can't help it if it doesn't match up with the script you had prepared.

So where was this answer? I had no script. I simply had a question.

Is it stupid to kill if God commands it?

(Responding with "Did God command you to kill" isn't an honest answer; it may be an honest question, but not an answer.)

 

[Pastor Larry]

Well we're reading a different Bible then.

Your Bible doesn't have Genesis?

I'm not bound by the old covenant or the old law, are you?

Nope. Neither of us are. The Old Covenant or the Law didn't begin until Exodus 20. That was probably several thousand years after Genesis 9. Genesis 9 is pre Law, and is an enduring command. It is based on the image of God in man, not the Law.

I agree that God commanded the death penalty during that time. But he also commanded that we put our wives outside of the village during their menstral cycle. I dare say neither of us are following that one.

Since I am not arguing from the Law, this is irrelevant, isn't it?

Christ's teachings DO say entirely different.
1. Love your enemies.
2. Bless those who curse you.
3. Love your neighbor as yourself.
4. Forgive others so that the Father will forgive you.

None of those thing contradicts the command of capital punishment. These commands are hardly in keeping with life in prison.

But these commands are for individuals. We do not have the right to imprison anyone; the government does. And you don't object to that. And with good reason. Neither should you object to the government's authority to carry out the death penalty.

Peter continues that line of teaching by instructing us to not repay evil with evil.

Again, speaking to individuals, not governments.

To call the death penalty or the bombing of the unsaved as God's justice is to just completely ignore the Scriptures in my opinion. You believe differently obviously and I respect that.

I haven't said anything about bombing people. I have commented only on God's command with respect to the value of human life. He said that because man is in his image, if a person kills, he is to be killed. You and I don't get to rewrite that.

The commands you list above keep us from pursuing vigilante justice. It does not prevent the government from pursuing justice.

If we take into account what we know of Bush--his fruit if you will, what kind of picture do we have? Dead Iraqis. Dead Afghanis. Sure, some of them were terrorists, but a lot of them were innocents. He just bombed them straight to hell. He repayed evil with evil and evil is the result. It's just heartbreaking to think about.

It seems that the US was very careful in attacks to avoid as many civilian deaths as possible. Your statements here are probably gross overstatements of the actual state of affairs.

What would you have him do? Sit back and do nothing and let terrorists run wild? Do you believe police should arrest rapists? Burglars? Murderers? How is this different?

 

[tragic_pizza]

So where was this answer? I had no script. I simply had a question.

Is it stupid to kill if God commands it?

(Responding with "Did God command you to kill" isn't an honest answer; it may be an honest question, but not an answer.)

Your script is: Oooh, let's catch the Liberal in his words, and we'll win the Internets!!11!1!

Is it stupid to eat rutabagas if the Rev. Al Sharpton recommends it?

No.

He hasn't, though, so in the interim I am not in favor of rutabagas. When Rev. Al calls, me, I'll let you know.

 

[Citizen]

Saddam's government was God sanctioned. If you lived in Iraq at that time you would have to submit to the government. There are Christians in Iraq. They submit to the goverment. There is a difference between two nations going to war against each other and submitting to the government while living in that nation.
It is God that sets up government. It is God that brings them down. All government is God-ordained. That doesn't mean that God sanctions what all governments do.

Which was my point. We can't use that excuse to endorse government actions like war and killing. Surely you see how hypocritical it is for us as Christians to talk about the love of Christ while getting excited when we hear of a bombing raid or the hanging of a lost soul.

 

[Citizen]

Your Bible doesn't have Genesis?

Nope. Neither of us are. The Old Covenant or the Law didn't begin until Exodus 20. That was probably several thousand years after Genesis 9. Genesis 9 is pre Law, and is an enduring command. It is based on the image of God in man, not the Law.

Since I am not arguing from the Law, this is irrelevant, isn't it?

It's entirely relevent. If you're going to submit yourself to Old Testament rules and regulations, (Covenant of Adam) then be prepared to submit to all of them.

None of those thing contradicts the command of capital punishment.

They certainly do.

These commands are hardly in keeping with life in prison.

But as Christians, wouldn't we rather see life in prison than death? The point isn't to do away with punishment, the point is to do away with the killing of possibly lost souls that need evangelizing.

But these commands are for individuals.

I'm an individual. The government is comprised of individuals. As an individual, I can't be against something for me but support my government in doing it.

We do not have the right to imprison anyone; the government does. And you don't object to that. And with good reason. Neither should you object to the government's authority to carry out the death penalty.

I don't object to life in prison because the government does it. I don't object to it because I don't object to man exacting punishment. However, when man take's life, he crosses the boundaries into God's territory and there is simply nothing in the teachings of Christ that could possibly justify it. Nothing.

Again, speaking to individuals, not governments.

I've already handled this.

I haven't said anything about bombing people. I have commented only on God's command with respect to the value of human life. He said that because man is in his image, if a person kills, he is to be killed. You and I don't get to rewrite that.

It's not being rewritten. It was wrote to a specific people during a specific period in time. We don't get to pick and choose my friend.

The commands you list above keep us from pursuing vigilante justice. It does not prevent the government from pursuing justice.

Agreed. It appears you're arguing that I'm against government sanctioned punishment. Nothing could be further from the truth. I'm against the government killing people and I'm against Christians who are called to show Christ's love, endorsing the killing of lost souls.

It seems that the US was very careful in attacks to avoid as many civilian deaths as possible. Your statements here are probably gross overstatements of the actual state of affairs.

I really don't think so. But I know the "liberal media" is probably behind my believing that if you drop a bomb on a densely packed neighborhood, innocents die.

What would you have him do? Sit back and do nothing and let terrorists run wild? Do you believe police should arrest rapists? Burglars? Murderers? How is this different?

The government is free to do as it chooses. I'm against the killing of people who have likely not had a chance to see the Real love of Christ. I won't stand in the government's way, but I certainly won't endorse them. I will just continue pointing to scripture and praying that God will show mercy on those who are lost but never had a chance to hear.

 

[Citizen]

Pastor Larry, I appreciate your responses and value your opinion. I believe we've both said all there is to say (I understand that you owe me a couple of responses) and I don't believe we'll change each other's minds. Thank you for the lively conversation! May God bless you and keep you.

Cit

 

[Pastor Larry]

Your script is: Oooh, let's catch the Liberal in his words, and we'll win the Internets!!11!1!

Win the internets??? What does that mean?

I haven’t tried to catch you in your words. (Aren’t I repeating myself here?) I have merely tried to get you to answer a simple question. You won’t do it.

Is it stupid to eat rutabagas if the Rev. Al Sharpton recommends it?

It’s stupid to eat rutabagas in any circumstance, IMO. (And yes, “any circumstance” means just what it sounds like). But that’s irrelevant.

Here’s the simple truth: If God commands killing, then it is not stupid.

Case in point: Capital punishment. God has given to governments the authority and obligation to honor his image in man through capital punishment. Therefore, based on the clear teachings of Scripture, the execution of Saddam Hussein was not only not stupid; it was a God-honoring act that showed respect for the image of God in man.

 

[Pastor Larry]

It's entirely relevent. If you're going to submit yourself to Old Testament rules and regulations, (Covenant of Adam) then be prepared to submit to all of them.

This is a fundamental theological misunderstanding. The Old Testament Law that we are not under is the Law of Moses. That is what the NT refers to. It is not referring to verses like Gen 9:6 which predated the Law by several thousand years.

Secondly, Gen 9:6 post dated Adam by several thousand years at least.

Thirdly, there was not “covenant with Adam.”

But as Christians, wouldn't we rather see life in prison than death? The point isn't to do away with punishment, the point is to do away with the killing of possibly lost souls that need evangelizing.

How is life in prison consistent with your four commands? If those four commands preclude punishment of death, it also precludes every other kind of punishment. Now, I know you don’t believe that every other kind of punishment is forbidden. But you have no rational reason to reject one form of punishment over another.

You don’t know about the evangelization of Saddam Hussein. But our obedience cannot be based on that. By all means, evangelize. That’s not the issue here.

I'm an individual. The government is comprised of individuals. As an individual, I can't be against something for me but support my government in doing it.

But the government does not act as individuals. They act as a government. When a judge hands down a decision, it is a governmental decision, not his personal one.

The issue is not being against something and supporting your government doing it. You should be for the honor of life through capital punishment.

However, when man take's life, he crosses the boundaries into God's territory and there is simply nothing in the teachings of Christ that could possibly justify it. Nothing.

Gen 9:6, Rom 13 … These both give the justification for government to carry out God’s command as God commanded it.

It's not being rewritten. It was wrote to a specific people during a specific period in time. We don't get to pick and choose my friend.

The Law was; not Gen 9:6. Genesis 9:6 was written using an eternal principle. It will cease to apply when man is no longer in the image of god.

It appears you're arguing that I'm against government sanctioned punishment. Nothing could be further from the truth.

But as I pointed out, you have no rational basis for your position, and certainly no theological basis for it.

I'm against the government killing people and I'm against Christians who are called to show Christ's love, endorsing the killing of lost souls.

I don’t think you can be against this and be for God … at least consistently. You cannot pick and choose which of God’s commands over us we support. If we love God, let us keep his commandments, including the ones that may be personally distasteful to us.

But I know the "liberal media" is probably behind my believing that if you drop a bomb on a densely packed neighborhood, innocents die.

But this was reportedly rare.

Thanks for the conversation. My concern is simply this: We must honor life because God commanded to do it, and we must honor it in the way that he says to do it.