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If a Calvinist Preached on the Gospel from your Pulpit

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Van

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Spurgeon said:
Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else. I do not believe we can preach the gospel, if we do not preach justification by faith without works; nor unless we preach the sovereignty of God in his dispensation of grace; nor unless we exalt the electing, unchangeable, eternal, immutable, conquering love of Jehovah; nor, I think, can we preach the gospel, unless we base it upon the peculiar redemption which Christ made for his elect and chosen people; nor can I comprehend a gospel which lets saints fall away after they are called, and suffers the children of God to be burned in the fires of damnation, after having believed.

I see we have yet another copy and paste thread, with post after post bashing non-Cals.

Lets take an excursion into truth and see what we find:

1) Justification by faith could mean a boat load of differing doctrines. It is vague to the point of meaninglessness. We are sinners, and therefore unjust in our fallen state, from conception. We were made sinners. Our sinful state is separated from God. In order for a right relationship with God to be established our sin burden (what God holds against us due to our sinful condition) must be removed by the circumcision of Christ. We must undergo the washing of regeneration and be reborn as a new creation. This justification, making us just as if we had not been a sinner, occurs when God and God alone transfers us into Christ. And He chooses to do this when He credits our "faith in the truth" as righteousness. Faith is not works.

2) Sovereignty of God is a buzz phrase with a Calvinist meaning, but also with a very different biblical meaning which states God causes or allows whatsoever comes to pass. Therefore God is not the author of sin.

3) God's attributes (just, loving, good, all powerful, all knowing, present everywhere, etc) are unchanging and unchangeable (immutable) but He does respond according to His conditional covenants, such as if we repent, He will relent.

4) Christ died for all mankind, providing the means of salvation (propitiation) for the whole world. However, only those God chooses through faith in the truth receive the benefit of being reconciled to God.

5) Once a person is actually saved (having been given to (transferred into) Christ, he or she shall never be cast out, thus being saved and indwelt forever.
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
May we have an example of this kind of preaching and who it is that preaches thusly (since you put quotation marks around the statement) to back up your accusation?

HankD



I used to call that 4 point Calvinism - the guy that only rejects perseverance of the saints.... but now apparently they call that 2 point Calvinism.

May we have the answer to this question?

"Could" that Calvinist preach the message of Paul in 2 Cor 5 "We BEG you on behalf of Christ be reconciled to God" or would he spend his time telling us why we should not preach it?
 

agedman

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I used to call that 4 point Calvinism - the guy that only rejects perseverance of the saints.... but now apparently they call that 2 point Calvinism.

May we have the answer to this question?
I have no problem presenting 2 Corinthians 5.

11Therefore, knowing the fear of the Lord, we persuade men, but we are made manifest to God; and I hope that we are made manifest also in your consciences. 12We are not again commending ourselves to you but are giving you an occasion to be proud of us, so that you will have an answer for those who take pride in appearance and not in heart. 13For if we are beside ourselves, it is for God; if we are of sound mind, it is for you. 14For the love of Christ controls us, having concluded this, that one died for all, therefore all died; 15and He died for all, so that they who live might no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died and rose again on their behalf.
Did not Paul hear Felix state, "Paul, you have almost persuaded me..."

Sad to say that often the persuasion of the intellect is not the change necessary for salvation. No matter how much we may beg, it is still God who is responsible to both initiate and to complete salvation.

What is the message that the non-cal may bring? Perhaps the same.
 

HankD

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I used to call that 4 point Calvinism - the guy that only rejects perseverance of the saints.... but now apparently they call that 2 point Calvinism.

May we have the answer to this question?
You sir put quotation marks around the statement - please identify the individual you are quoting.

HankD
 

agedman

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There are MANY 4 point Calvinists in the that are Baptists.

As myself, we desire a better statement of the limit of atonement not being upon the blood but upon the belief.

There is not a Calvinist that is not OSAS.

There is not a Calvinist that does not hold to election and irresistible grace thinking.

There is not a true Calvinist that does not hold to total depravity.

I don't know how one could be a one or two point calvinist.

What type of confusion that must bring.
 

agedman

Well-Known Member
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I see we have yet another copy and paste thread, with post after post bashing non-Cals.

Lets take an excursion into truth and see what we find:

1) Justification by faith could mean a boat load of differing doctrines. It is vague to the point of meaninglessness. We are sinners, and therefore unjust in our fallen state, from conception. We were made sinners. Our sinful state is separated from God. In order for a right relationship with God to be established our sin burden (what God holds against us due to our sinful condition) must be removed by the circumcision of Christ. We must undergo the washing of regeneration and be reborn as a new creation. This justification, making us just as if we had not been a sinner, occurs when God and God alone transfers us into Christ. And He chooses to do this when He credits our "faith in the truth" as righteousness. Faith is not works.

2) Sovereignty of God is a buzz phrase with a Calvinist meaning, but also with a very different biblical meaning which states God causes or allows whatsoever comes to pass. Therefore God is not the author of sin.

3) God's attributes (just, loving, good, all powerful, all knowing, present everywhere, etc) are unchanging and unchangeable (immutable) but He does respond according to His conditional covenants, such as if we repent, He will relent.

4) Christ died for all mankind, providing the means of salvation (propitiation) for the whole world. However, only those God chooses through faith in the truth receive the benefit of being reconciled to God.

5) Once a person is actually saved (having been given to (transferred into) Christ, he or she shall never be cast out, thus being saved and indwelt forever.
I think I will just have to ignore you for a while.

It is unfortunate that you blend truth into error and call it good and faithful to the Scriptures.

4The LORD has made everything for its own purpose,
Even the wicked for the day of evil.
 

HankD

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Site Supporter
There are MANY 4 point Calvinists in the that are Baptists.

As myself, we desire a better statement of the limit of atonement not being upon the blood but upon the belief.

There is not a Calvinist that is not OSAS.

There is not a Calvinist that does not hold to election and irresistible grace thinking.

There is not a true Calvinist that does not hold to total depravity.

I don't know how one could be a one or two point calvinist.

What type of confusion that must bring.

What is your point agedman?

HankD (a 0 point Calvinist)
 

Reformed

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What is your point agedman?

HankD (a 0 point Calvinist)
Hank,

I feel bad for you. You have zero points. You can't win the game with zero points. Think you need a handicap like in golf. LOL

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HankD

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Though I have a quarrel with calvinism I personally would not have a problem with a "calvinist" preaching the gospel from the pulpit of my local church.

Of course the pastor and the deacon board would be involved with that decision.

Another consideration would be the exact meaning of "calvinist" as it can be confusing at times.


HankD
 

Reformed

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Though I have a quarrel with calvinism I personally would not have a problem with a "calvinist" preaching the gospel from the pulpit of my local church.

Of course the pastor and the deacon board would be involved with that decision.

Another consideration would be the exact meaning of "calvinist" as it can be confusing at times.


HankD
I have always defined it as someone who believes in the 5 points of TULIP. I do not believe in 4 point Calvinists (or Amyraldians as they are properly called).

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HankD

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I have always defined it as someone who believes in the 5 points of TULIP. I do not believe in 4 point Calvinists (or Amyraldians as they are properly called).

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Even adherence to the 5 points is not totally definitive

e.g. infralapsaians or supralapsarians?

Some folks in my local church would have a big difficulty with double predestination.

https://www.christianforums.com/thr...nfralapsarianism-what-are-you-and-why.710325/

HankD
 

Reformed

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One's lapsarian position should not affect how the Gospel is presented. I lean towards supralapsarianism, but I will not fall on my sword over it. But my OP had in mind a one-time Gospel message being preached by a Calvinist preacher.

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HankD

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One's lapsarian position should not affect how the Gospel is presented. I lean towards supralapsarianism, but I will not fall on my sword over it. But my OP had in mind a one-time Gospel message being preached by a Calvinist preacher
"should not" true, but some would ask - if God does both the electing and the reprobating why preach the gospel in the first place?

Personally I believe it is redeemed mankind's responsibility to preach the gospel and not to attempt to define and distill into a systematic theology every jot and tittle of "soteriology" (so called).

HankD
 

Reformed

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"should not" true, but some would ask - if God does both the electing and the reprobating why preach the gospel in the first place?

HankD

Hank, because in either view the Gospel is still the means of salvation (Romans 1:16).



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Reynolds

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Besides calling for tar, feathers, and pitchforks, what would happen if a Calvinist preached on the Gospel from your pulpit this coming Lord's day? What would you expect to hear? A diatribe on Reformed soteriology? I think most of my Synergist brethren on this board would be surprised. Charles Spurgeon said of the Gospel:

"On Christ, and what he has done, my soul hangs for time and eternity. And if your soul also hangs there, it will be saved as surely as mine shall be. And if you are lost trusting in Christ, I will be lost with you and will go to hell with you. I must do so, for I have nothing else to rely upon but the fact that Jesus Christ, the Son of God, lived, died, was buried, rose again, went to heaven, and still lives and pleads for sinners at the right hand of God."

Spurgeon knew his Reformed soteriology well. Spurgeon once wrote:

"And I have my own private opinion, that there is no such thing as preaching Christ and him crucified, unless you preach what now-a-days is called Calvinism. I have my own ideas, and those I always state boldly. It is a nickname to call it Calvinism. Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else. I do not believe we can preach the gospel, if we do not preach justification by faith without works; nor unless we preach the sovereignty of God in his dispensation of grace; nor unless we exalt the electing, unchangeable, eternal, immutable, conquering love of Jehovah; nor, I think, can we preach the gospel, unless we base it upon the peculiar redemption which Christ made for his elect and chosen people; nor can I comprehend a gospel which lets saints fall away after they are called, and suffers the children of God to be burned in the fires of damnation, after having believed. Such a gospel I abhor. The gospel of the Bible is not such a gospel as that. We preach Christ and him crucified in a different fashion, and to all gainsayers we reply, ‘We have not so learned Christ." [Spurgeon’s Sermons, vol. I (Baker Books, reprinted 2007), 88-89.]

In the Prince-of-Preachers mind, Calvinism embodied the Bible's teaching on predestination and election, but if you were to listen to a Spurgeon sermon, how likely would you be hit over the head with Calvinism as the topic? The truth-be-told, not too often. Spurgeon was more concerned with preaching the full counsel of God. Peruse the collection of Spurgeon sermons at the following link (Spurgeon Library: Home page) to see how often Spurgeon singled out Calvinism for a sermon.

So, what would you hear if a Calvinist preached on the Gospel at your church this Lord's day? You would hear an impassioned plea for every unsaved person in attendance to repent of their sins and place their faith in Jesus Christ alone for their salvation. You would hear that the Gospel saves and keeps us saved. The good news of Jesus Christ is our hope for all eternity. You may hear that we should never take the Gospel for granted. As Paul told the Corinthians in 2 Corinthians 13:5, "Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you--unless indeed you fail the test?"

You will never hear the Calvinist preacher tell the non-elect to close their ears and not listen to his message. The Calvinist preacher knows he does not possess perfect knowledge. He has no special gift to look into a person's soul and determine whether they are one of the Elect. However, the Calvinist preacher understands the preaching of the Gospel is the means of salvation. After all, scripture says, "How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher? How will they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, “HOW BEAUTIFUL ARE THE FEET OF THOSE WHO BRING GOOD NEWS OF GOOD THINGS! (Romans 10:14-15)." So, the Calvinist preacher will proclaim the Gospel with fervor. He will exclaim, "Behold, now is “THE ACCEPTABLE TIME,” behold, now is “THE DAY OF SALVATION” (2 Corinthians 6:2b). He will beg you not to put off for one moment the scriptural command that all people everywhere should repent (Acts 17:30). The Calvinist preacher knows only those appointed unto eternal life (Acts 13:48) will believe but who actually has been appointed is not his concern. The secret things belong to the Lord. He must fulfill his charge to preach the Gospel in power and boldness.

When the Calvinist preacher has finished his message you will find little to make you unhappy. You may not see an altar call, but there will definitely be a call to repent and believe.
I would expect to hear what I hear daily from John McArthur. 95% of his preaching would not even alert non cal Baptists that he is a Calvinist.
 

HankD

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Hank, because in either view the Gospel is still the means of salvation (Romans 1:16).
I agree and it would not be a problem for me.

However being a Sunday school teacher for several decades I know there would be trouble among the troops in "regular" Baptist church pulpits for someone who preaches and supports double predestination.

The O/P is aimed at "your pulpit".

Even if the view was not verbalized in the preaching of the gospel there would be those who would not be ease unless a full disclosure be made beforehand by said pulpit gospeleer.

HankD
 
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